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Did Jesus claim Divinity?

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Wiccan_Child

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“Weep not: behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, [which] hath prevailed…And I beheld…a Lamb as it had been slain…” Revelation 5:5​

One thing is simultaneously a conquering lion, and a mortally wounded lamb. Christianity has contradictions and paradoxes throughout it. Many are very beautiful, and Christians believe on a higher level of reality, they’re also true.
No offence, but those Christians would be wrong. A paradox is a paradox is a paradox, eternally untrue. Even gods can't break logic.
 
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Chesterton

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No offence, but those Christians would be wrong. A paradox is a paradox is a paradox, eternally untrue. Even gods can't break logic.

In this world, I agree with you. But Christianity claims to be telling us things of another world. Perhaps some aspects of quantum mechanics might not have been thought possible once upon a time. If and when we find out what Reality is like, there may be surprises. And from a practical standpoint, I don’t think it’s wise to rule things out unless we absolutely know we can rule them out. No offence, but I don’t think you have sufficient information to rule such a thing out.
 
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Zebra1552

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Again, this would imply Modalism, which I do not think is the concept you are trying to get across.
No, it would not. Three things being the same thing is not three different modes at three different times.


I'm not sure about all paradoxes being contradictions, but all contradictions are paradoxes. If a belief system can be shown to lead to a logical paradox (for example, by highlighting internal inconsistency, the belief system has been disproven: it cannot be true.
A paradox does not mean something cannot be true. It means there is something unexplainable. Wow...
 
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Gary51

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Ummm maybe that would be valid if we were talking about just math here. 100% water is also 100% ice, and can also be 100% gas, and 100% liquid- all the while being 100% water. Just like steam is 100% gas and 100% water, the Spirit is 100% Spirit and 100% God, just like Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, just like the Father is 100% Father and 100% God.
Ahh... The old ice, water, steam explanation...

Have you ever seen Ice, water and steam in there various states all together in a bottle?

They are separate, are the not, Just like the Father and the Son.

Try again!
 
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katholikos

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No offence, but those Christians would be wrong. A paradox is a paradox is a paradox, eternally untrue. Even gods can't break logic.

Your logic is not Gods logic.

Gods holds all of creation in existance with His divine Word, and he is master of all that exists. No human mind can fully grasp the true nature of God.
 
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katholikos

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Did Jesus say he is a God?

I believe the subject of this thread is not Trinitarian theology, but rather DID JESUS CLAIM to be God. And the answer is: Yes, He did. To that end, I will re-post these scriptures:

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God in John 8:58, John 10:38, John 14:10, and Col. 2:9. Jesus DID say he was God in John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, and Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!") If Jesus was not God, He would have rebuked Thomas for this statement, but He did not.

Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus "who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus (Rev. 1:17). This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12). This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13). This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).
 
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Gary51

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HI! Welcome to CHRISTIAN apologetics. We discuss things from a Christian POV here. So no, I am not going to consider that the Christian bit is not part of apologetics. Perhaps you missed the change in the enforcement?
There is an epidemic in the world today. People are not open to the possibility of being in error. They hold their beliefs within a clenched fist, unwilling and therefore unable to see possible errors in their respected ideaologies.It is not until individuals are willing to place their beliefs on the choping block of critical scrutiny and rigorous examination that error can be hacked up and tossed in the fire of falsehood, and truth can be given the opportunity to prove and demonstrate it's ability to withstand the fiercest stike. As people of God, we should be the ones who set the bar high for this type of radical intellectual integrity.

As genuine truth seekers, we need need not be afraid of placing to the test or allowing them to be callengened. If our beliefs are well founded, they will be reinforced and strenthened. Conversely, if our beliefs are shown to be weak and faulty, in so far as truth is our objective, we will be thankful to see the errors in our thinking, thus freeing us to seach afresh for what is true, right, and of God. When the world sees a people striving to be responsible thinkers, open to critique, reasonable, reverent and painfully honest, they will be more willing to lend their ears to consider the kingdom we proclaim and the Messiah we follow.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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No, it would not. Three things being the same thing is not three different modes at three different times.
Your analogy begs to differ: the H[sub]2[/sub]O molecule is one thing being in three different modes (gaseous vapour, liquid water, and solid ice) at three different times. Hence why your analogy implies a Modalist belief, which I did not think you had, and hence why I said your analogy was flawed: it implied the wrong thing.

A paradox does not mean something cannot be true. It means there is something unexplainable. Wow...
You're wrong, but I'm not interested in getting into a semantic debate with you.

Two of your premises ("A = B" and "A = C") lead to a conclusion ("B = C"), which contradicts your third premise ("B ≠ C"). Since they cannot both be true ("Either p or ¬p"), one of your premises must be false (in general, the conclusion itself might be specious, but this is not the case here).

In other words, your theology is internally inconsistent, and cannot be true.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Your logic is not Gods logic.
Logic is logic is logic. Even God cannot square the circle.

Gods holds all of creation in existance with His divine Word, and he is master of all that exists. No human mind can fully grasp the true nature of God.
That doesn't mean the "true nature of God" is paradoxical.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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In this world, I agree with you. But Christianity claims to be telling us things of another world. Perhaps some aspects of quantum mechanics might not have been thought possible once upon a time.

Quantum mechanics doesn't lead to a logical paradox, merely counter-intuitive conclusions. If something has been proven to be false, it will always be false, so long as those premises are held.

If and when we find out what Reality is like, there may be surprises. And from a practical standpoint, I don’t think it’s wise to rule things out unless we absolutely know we can rule them out. No offence, but I don’t think you have sufficient information to rule such a thing out.
That's the beauty of logic: it does give us absolute knowledge. If something has been proven, we can say with absolute certainty that it is true.
 
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katholikos

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Logic is logic is logic. Even God cannot square the circle.....

Yout human mind cannot fathom God's logic. Man's wisdom of today is always foolishness tomorrow. God's infinite wisdom is everlasting.

Besides, its hard to take seriously the opinion of a 20 year old pagan. You've been on this earth 20 years, and all of a sudden you can fully understand the ways of the Almighty? <<snort>>
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Yout human mind cannot fathom God's logic.
You keep talking as it there's two forms of logic: ours and God's. What makes you think this? Is it just a way to save your theology?

Man's wisdom of today is always foolishness tomorrow. God's infinite wisdom is everlasting.
Which says nothing about the point in hand.

Besides, its hard to take seriously the opinion of a 20 year old pagan. You've been on this earth 20 years, and all of a sudden you can fully understand the ways of the Almighty? <<snort>>
Two ad hominems, two appeals to ridicule, and a rather blatant strawman. Any other fallacies you like to throw in?
 
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STevensSA

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Quantum mechanics doesn't lead to a logical paradox, merely counter-intuitive conclusions. If something has been proven to be false, it will always be false, so long as those premises are held.

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That's the beauty of logic: it does give us absolute knowledge. If something has been proven, we can say with absolute certainty that it is true.


That is totally dependent on the method used to quantify the results. It does not take into consideration any advancement in the methods we use to test or further knowledge gained.
An arguement could be made that if further investigation or advancement in knowledge shows that what we held to be true is not, then it was never a truth to begin with. Which can only lead one to except that there is no absolute truth, only truth as we perceive it in the now.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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That is totally dependent on the method used to quantify the results. It does not take into consideration any advancement in the methods we use to test or further knowledge gained.
An arguement could be made that if further investigation or advancement in knowledge shows that what we held to be true is not, then it was never a truth to begin with.
Which is why proof is so powerful: if something has been proven to be true, it is true, and we can say this 100% certainty. Note that true proof is different from proof beyond all reasonable doubt (which is the case for, say, atomic theory, and the theory of common descent).

Which can only lead one to except that there is no absolute truth, only truth as we perceive it in the now.
An expectation that can easily be disproven by way of contradiction: "Are there absolute truths?"
 
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Zebra1552

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There is an epidemic in the world today. People are not open to the possibility of being in error. They hold their beliefs within a clenched fist, unwilling and therefore unable to see possible errors in their respected ideaologies.It is not until individuals are willing to place their beliefs on the choping block of critical scrutiny and rigorous examination that error can be hacked up and tossed in the fire of falsehood, and truth can be given the opportunity to prove and demonstrate it's ability to withstand the fiercest stike. As people of God, we should be the ones who set the bar high for this type of radical intellectual integrity.
And since when are you a people of God? You don't set the bar very high, I'm afraid.

As genuine truth seekers, we need need not be afraid of placing to the test or allowing them to be callengened. If our beliefs are well founded, they will be reinforced and strenthened. Conversely, if our beliefs are shown to be weak and faulty, in so far as truth is our objective, we will be thankful to see the errors in our thinking, thus freeing us to seach afresh for what is true, right, and of God. When the world sees a people striving to be responsible thinkers, open to critique, reasonable, reverent and painfully honest, they will be more willing to lend their ears to consider the kingdom we proclaim and the Messiah we follow.
Sorry, but your speech does not change the name of the thread.
 
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Zebra1552

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Ahh... The old ice, water, steam explanation...

Have you ever seen Ice, water and steam in there various states all together in a bottle?

They are separate, are the not, Just like the Father and the Son.

Try again!
Hey, imagine that, three things with three roles being separate from each other.... yet still God. Just like water, steam, ice... yet they are still water.

Stick an ice cube in a hot enough environment and you do get all three, by the way. Apparently you missed the bit about analogies.
 
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Zebra1552

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Your analogy begs to differ: the H[sub]2[/sub]O molecule is one thing being in three different modes (gaseous vapour, liquid water, and solid ice) at three different times.
Who says you don't have a beaker with ice, water, and steam sitting on the same table? You assume too much about the analogy to make that stretch.
Hence why your analogy implies a Modalist belief, which I did not think you had, and hence why I said your analogy was flawed: it implied the wrong thing.
Hence why you are again making assumptions.


You're wrong, but I'm not interested in getting into a semantic debate with you.

Two of your premises ("A = B" and "A = C") lead to a conclusion ("B = C"), which contradicts your third premise ("B &#8800; C"). Since they cannot both be true ("Either p or ¬p"), one of your premises must be false (in general, the conclusion itself might be specious, but this is not the case here).

In other words, your theology is internally inconsistent, and cannot be true.
Um, if all three premises lead to a conclusion and one premise denies the possibility of B=C, then one cannot reach the conclusion that B=C using all three premises (and the conclusion is dependent on all three premises).
 
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Zebra1552

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No offence, but those Christians would be wrong. A paradox is a paradox is a paradox, eternally untrue. Even gods can't break logic.
Really? What if Jesus in that passage was one of those illusion things where one angle you look and see Jesus, one angle you see a lion, and another you see a lamb? What then? ;)
 
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