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Every bit of what was shown here (and it was a lot) is extremely compelling and significant.
Again, the Bible calls Him God outright in Heb. 1 (Ho Theos) - the Father calls Him "The God". Sorry, but that has to be dealt with.
Any claim of Godhood has to be explained. It's also in Isaiah where He's called YHWY of Hosts.
He cannot be a lesser God, becuz the Father says He won't share His glory with another (of which Jesus is given glory and honor w/ the Father in Rev. 4-5 - AND IS WORSHIPPED)...
no other gods may be worshipped other than God Himself, it's one of the 10 commandments - so telling us to worship Christ is heresy if He's just a lesser god.
If He's not a god or God .... then a human is recieving worship & being glorified which is also heretical. He has to be God or else the Bible is a mess and teaching heresy & blasphemy where Christ is concerned.
But it tells us He's God in other places as well; directly and indirectly.
There's a reason Trinitarianism has been the mainstay in Christianity and why that creed was created to keep the standard for Christians.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48:11
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
of Christ:
Revelation 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
God said He won't share His glory with another - yet the Lamb (Christ) is seen with Him accepting equal blessing, honour & glory together (worship).
The lists go on and on why He has to be one of the 3 who is the True God; worthy to recieve equal glory and worship with God and as God.
Do you have an argument? Or are you just going to play skeptic?receiving glory and power from God???? I thought you said Jesus is equal to God????
You need a lot of study.... Exodus and John are not the same.....
A load of wishful nonsense....yes it is! completely signifigant.
Jews hung him on a cross for his claims.
looks like the plan worked just as it was laid out.
you didn't address what it is I said, though.
it isn't about if Jews viewed him as God, but whether or not Jesus claimed divinity.
when he said I AM he was claiming Godhood. I AM is the name God gave to Moses at the burning bush.
any Jew listening would know that is exactly what he was saying, when he said "before Abraham, I AM."
of another note, the passage where the apostles are near capsizing in their boat, and Christ calls out to them, it's been rendered "fear not, it is I" but a more literal translation, so I've read, is "fear not, I AM"
compelling evidence.
yes, I read post #519. It made no logical sense.A load of wishful nonsense....
I understand that you need to make things fit your mindset... Enjoy your belief... Just accept not all see it your way!
To me "I am before Abraham" means just what it says...
PS. Did you not see post #519
LOL.... And you call others Einstein!yes, I read post #519. It made no logical sense.
Are you sure?... you didn't understand post #519.I accept you don't see it my way.
Yeah, I know!People are wrong about lots of things.
Yes it does....it doesnt say he HAD a beginning and end, it says he IS the beginning and end.
No, it says he IS the beginning and the end, implying that he was there to create a beginning and will be there to end it.Rev 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end.
What does this mean?...
I thought God had no beginning and end.
Something not making logical sense has nothing to do with the reader's intelligence. It has to do with the intelligence or lackthereof in the work in question, which would be yours.LOL.... And you call others Einstein!
Are you sure?... you didn't understand post #519.
Yeah, I know!
Sorry, but it was very plain...Something not making logical sense has nothing to do with the reader's intelligence. It has to do with the intelligence or lackthereof in the work in question, which would be yours.
Absolute proof of how you make plain starightforward statements into something that will fit your preconceived ideology.No, it says he IS the beginning and the end, implying that he was there to create a beginning and will be there to end it.
I take it to mean, there is no beginning or end, there is just...God. thats just my opinion on what it might mean.Yes it does....
"I am the beginning and end"
Lets try it without the word "Had" then...
I thought God was without beginning or end.
I could just as easily say that this is absolute proof of how you back your own preconceived notions. And then it turns into a bunch of mudslinging. No, let's keep this on topic and respectful. And if you cannot do that, you may as well not even post. That is what the rules say, by implication:Absolute proof of how you make plain starightforward statements into something that will fit your preconceived ideology.
It needs to say, "I am without beginning and without end" to make sense.... but it does not say that, does it?
But because you can't grasp that Jesus had a beginning, like He said, you make his words mean something else.
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Attacking the lack of logic in a post is far from attacking the intelligence of another. That is why grammar is important.Sorry, but it was very plain...
And it is you that has attacked the intelligence of another.
Not really because the words are plain...I could just as easily say that this is absolute proof of how you back your own preconceived notions. And then it turns into a bunch of mudslinging. No, let's keep this on topic and respectful. And if you cannot do that, you may as well not even post. That is what the rules say, by implication:
Just to clarify, the text states:Not really because the words are plain...
If there is no beginning, one states that there is no beginning...
To state I am the beginning, states there was a beginning...
It's that simple....
I take the line for what it says... you do not, you make it mean something else to fit your beliefs.
Word Pictures in the New Testament, Archibald Thomas RobertsonRev 22:13 -
I am the Alpha and the Omega (Egō to Alpha kai to O). Applied to God in Rev_1:8; Rev_21:6, and here alone to Christ, crowning proof in this book of Christs deity. So in Rev_21:6 God is termed, as Christ is here, hē archē kai to telos (the beginning and the end), while ho prōtos kai ho eschatos (the first and the last) is applied only to Christ (Rev_1:17; Rev_2:8). Solemn assurance is thus given that Christ is qualified to be the Judge of Rev_22:12 (cf. Matt 25:31-46). In Heb_12:2 Jesus is the archēgos kai teleiōtēs tēs pisteōs (the author and finisher of faith). Christ was the Creator of the universe for the Father. So now he is the Consummation of redemption.
-The People's New Testament, B. W. JohnsonI am the Alpha and the Omega. The first and last letters of the Greek alphabet; hence "the beginning and the end." All begins with God and he closes the drama of earthly history.
-A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David BrownRev 1:8 -
Greek, I am the Alpha and the Omega. The first and last letters of the alphabet. God in Christ comprises all that goes between, as well as the first and last.
Rev 22:13 -
I am Alpha Greek, ... the Alpha and the Omega. A, B, Vulgate, Syriac, Origen, and Cyprian transpose thus, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Andreas supports English Version. Compare with these divine titles assumed here by the Lord Jesus, Rev_1:8, Rev_1:17; Rev_21:6. At the winding up of the whole scheme of revelation He announces Himself as the One before whom and after whom there is no God.
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible.Rev 1:8 -
I am Alpha and Omega - I am from eternity to eternity. This mode of speech is borrowed from the Jews, who express the whole compass of things by א aleph and ת tau, the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet; but as St. John was writing in Greek, he accommodates the whole to the Greek alphabet, of which Α alpha and Ω omega are the first and last letters. With the rabbins מא ועד ת meeleph vead tau, from aleph to tau, expressed the whole of a matter, from the beginning to the end. So in Yalcut Rubeni, fol. 17, 4: Adam transgressed the whole law from aleph to tau; i.e., from the beginning to the end.
Ibid., fol. 48, 4: Abraham observed the law, from aleph to tau; i.e., he kept it entirely, from beginning to end.
Ibid., fol. 128, 3: When the holy blessed God pronounced a blessing on the Israelites, he did it from aleph to tau; i.e., he did it perfectly.
The beginning and the ending - That is, as aleph or alpha is the beginning of the alphabet, so am I the author and cause of all things; as tau or omega is the end or last letter of the alphabet, so am I the end of all thinks, the destroyer as well as the establisher of all things. This clause is wanting in almost every MS. and version of importance. It appears to have been added first as an explanatory note, and in process of time crept into the text. Griesbach has left it out of the text. It is worthy of remark, that as the union of א aleph and ת tau in Hebrew make את eth, which the rabbins interpret of the first matter out of which all things were formed, (see on Gen_1:1 (note)); so the union of Α alpha and Ω omega, in Greek, makes the verb αω, I breathe, and may very properly, in such a symbolical book, point out Him in whom we live, and move, and have our being; for, having formed man out of the dust of the earth, he breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and he became a living soul; and it is by the inspiration or inbreathing of his Spirit that the souls of men are quickened, made alive from the dead, and fitted for life eternal. He adds also that he is the Almighty, the all-powerful framer of the universe, and the inspirer of men.
What you present, is only the misunderstandings of traditional Christianity. You need to think for yourself... Don't let the Church think for you.Just to clarify, the text states:
Rev 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Not just 'I am the beginning'... but 'I am the alpha and omega, first and the last, beginning and end'.
But really, let us look at some commentaries:
Word Pictures in the New Testament, Archibald Thomas Robertson
-The People's New Testament, B. W. Johnson
And since Alpha and Omega, as a phrase, is used elsewhere in Revelation, let's look at that too:
Rev 1:8 -
Alpha and Omega (τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω
Rev., rightly, gives the article, the Alpha, etc. The words are explained by the gloss, properly omitted from the text, the beginning and the ending. The Rabbinical writers used the phrase from Aleph to Tav, to signify completely, from beginning to end. Thus one says, Adam transgressed the whole law from Aleph even to Tav. Compare Isa_41:4; Isa_43:10; Isa_44:6.
-A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible.
Not that we should just go by what they say- we should see if it lines up with the general gist of the Bible. And John says, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:1-3, NAS)
Given that most theologians attribute the words in Revelation to Jesus, and given that Jesus is the one being talked about in John 1:1-3, it is safe to assume that Jesus is eternal. Meaning that Jesus is God, because only God is eternal- without beginning or end.
If I was letting the church think for me I would not be in apologetics.What you present, is only the misunderstandings of traditional Christianity. You need to think for yourself... Don't let the Church think for you.
Believe what the Bible teaches... not the Church...
You cannot change the text simply because you want to. I will not debate this issue any further with you.No where in the Bible does it say Jesus is eternal...
No where in the Bible does Jesus claim to be God...
Believe the simple word of God... Not the abstract word of men.
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