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So you must know and understand the phrase, "Eternally Begotten" then....I agree that he's God incarnate. He created everything.
I like the explanations people have given here that show his divinity.
I agree that he's God incarnate. He created everything.
I like the explanations people have given here that show his divinity.
Matt 26:63 But Jesus was silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “He has blasphemed! Why do we still need witnesses? Now you have heard the blasphemy!
Psalm 110:1 Here is the Lord’s proclamation1 to my lord:2 “Sit down at my right hand3 until I make your enemies your footstool!”
1 1 tn The word נְאֻם (né’um) is used frequently in the OT of a formal divine announcement through a prophet.
2 2 sn My lord. In the psalm’s original context the speaker is an unidentified prophetic voice in the royal court. In the course of time the psalm is applied to each successive king in the dynasty and ultimately to the ideal Davidic king. NT references to the psalm understand David to be speaking about his “lord,” the Messiah. (See Matt 22:43–45; Mark 12:36–37; Luke 20:42–44; Acts 2:34–35).
3 tn To sit at the “right hand” of the king was an honor (see 1 Kgs 2:19). In Ugaritic myth (CTA 4 v. 108–10) the artisan god Kothar-and Khasis is described as sitting at the right hand of the storm god Baal. See G. R. Driver, Canaanite Myths and Legends, 61–62.sn The Lord’s invitation to the Davidic king to sit down at his right hand reflects the king’s position as the Lord’s vice-regent.
Dan 7:9 “While I was watching, thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
....
7:13 I was watching in the night visions, “And with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man was approaching. He went up to the Ancient of Days and was escorted before him.
Deut 33:26 There is no one like God, O Jeshurun,
who rides through the heavens to help you,
on the clouds in majesty.
Psalm 68:32 O kingdoms of the earth, sing to God!
Sing praises to the Lord, (Selah)
68:33 to the one who rides through the sky from ancient times!68:34 Acknowledge God’s power,
Look! He thunders loudly
his sovereignty over Israel,
and the power he reveals in the skies!
Psalm 104:1 Praise the Lord, O my soul!
O YHWH my God, you are magnificent.
You are robed in splendor and majesty.
104:2 He covers himself with light as if it were a garment.
He stretches out the skies like a tent curtain,
104:3 and lays the beams of the upper rooms of his palace on the rain clouds.
He makes the clouds his chariot,
and travels along on the wings of the wind.
Isaiah 19:1 Here is a message about Egypt:
Look, YHWH rides on a swift-moving cloud
and approaches Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him;
the Egyptians lose their courage.
Ya... the whole "Let US make man in OUR own image" thing?This is interesting I always thought Jesus was God's son and whom God was with the whole time and not God himself.
Hey these are awesome - I'm going to check them out today in my bible study time.Here's what I think is a good one at Jesus' trial:
Why does the high priest accuse Jesus of blasphemy? Answering affirmitively to the question "Are you the Messiah" wasn't blasphemy. There were plenty of people around Jesus' time that claimed to be the messiah. Jesus, in his response, pulls from Psalm 110 and Daniel 7 to explain himself.
Jesus quotes from Dan 7 and Ps 110 in his response to explain what he was claiming. What was blasphemous was, for one, the claim that he was going to share the throne of GOD. Second, only in Dan 7:13 do we see "one like the son of man" riding on clouds. In every other Old Testament passage, and there aren't too many, the person riding on the clouds was YHWH Himself:
(See also Psalm 29 where God is described as a storm forming over Lebanon)
In other Ancient Near Easten beliefs the cloud rider was always a deity (eg. Ba'al).
Jesus, in this double quote to Ciaphas, claimed that He was going to share the throne of YHWH, and not only that, but He used the imagery in Dan. 7 to describe His vindication. Jesus was going to be the one riding on the clouds. No wonder Ciaphas tore his robe and screamed blasphemy - he understood perfectly what Jesus had just said.
Did Jesus claim to be God? Yes. This is a simple example from the gospels. There are plenty.
Any takers on this?So you must know and understand the phrase, "Eternally Begotten" then....
Would you mind explaining it to me?
I don't use "eternally begotten"... (but it's clearly taught that Christ is eternal & was with God clear back before the creation - AS the CREATOR of all things & principalities & powers. All life.).Any takers on this?
I believe there is division on the "Begotten" aspect of Jesus.
Some believe He was not begotten until His Human birth... While others believe He was "Eternally Begotten". However, the phrase "Eternally Begotten" is not in scripture, and I have no understanding of what "Eternally Begotten" means.
Any takers on this?
I believe there is division on the "Begotten" aspect of Jesus.
Some believe He was not begotten until His Human birth... While others believe He was "Eternally Begotten". However, the phrase "Eternally Begotten" is not in scripture, and I have no understanding of what "Eternally Begotten" means.
Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying ,
...
2:6 Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."
"I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son
Jude 1:4 For certain men have secretly slipped in among you men who long ago were marked out for the condemnation I am about to describe ungodly men who have turned the grace of our God into a license for evil and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
1:5 Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all ) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe. 1:6 You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence, he has kept in eternal chains in utter darkness, locked up for the judgment of the great Day. 1:7 So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Matt 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! But wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.
Matt 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon and now, something greater than Solomon is here!
Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things written about himself in all the scriptures.
John 5:45 Do not suppose that I will accuse you before the Father. The one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope. 79 5:46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.
John 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, We have found the one Moses wrote about in the law, and the prophets also wrote about Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Did Jesus say he is a God?
Thanks for that...
I look forward to other opinions
Yes!
and MIGHTY GOD, HO THEOS (THE GOD), YHWY OF HOSTS (armies)...
CREATOR OF ALL THINGS...
(you might have forgotten to add those by accident)
All of them when combined show us that there is 1 true God, consisting of 3 separate & distinct persons who all 3 perform the acts of God, AS GOD, in complete unity together.
Thanks for that...I think "eternally begotten" was just a summary that's in the nicene creed. I think the authors of the creed were doing their best to sum up what scripture said, and that's a phrase they used among others ("light of light", "true God of true God", "eternally begotten, not made", etc..).
But, begotten is begotten... Jesus is unique no matter what. If Jesus is eternal, why give Him a title that would under any other circumstance suggest a beginning.I think "only begotten son" as used in John (Jn 1:18, 3:16) refers to Jesus' uniqeness; His unique status.
Thanks for that...
If the idea of "Eternally Begotten" is linked to the Nicene Creed, wouldn't that mean that 4th century Christians did not believe that Jesus was begotten at His human birth?
I've spoken to many Trinitarians that Believe the phrase, "The Only Begotten Son Of God," refers to His human birth....
Isn't that why, "Eternally Begotten" was made up, as to avoid confusion?
But, begotten is begotten... Jesus is unique no matter what. If Jesus is eternal, why give Him a title that would under any other circumstance suggest a beginning.
It makes little sense to me...
Here is a title that would make sense, and would probably be universally understood...
"Jesus the only eternal unbegotten Son of God"...
Now that would make sense.
(cf: Prov 8-9)Our Rabbis taught: Man was created alone.And why so? — That the Sadducees might not say: There are many ruling powers in Heaven.
....
Our Rabbis taught: Adam was created on the eve of Sabbath. And why? — Lest the Sadducees say: The Holy One, blessed be He, had a partner in His work of creation.
......
For it is written: Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars. She hath prepared her meat, she hath mingled her wine, she hath also furnished her table. She hath sent forth her maidens, she calleth upon the highest places of the city. Wisdom hath builded her house, — this is the attribute of the Holy One, blessed be He, who created the world by wisdom. She hath hewn out her seven pillars, — these are the seven days of creation. She hath prepared her meat, she hath mingled her wine, she hath also furnished her table, — these are the seas and the rivers and all the other requirements of the world. She hath sent forth her maidens, she calleth, — this refers to Adam and Eve.
Yes I remember... but it did not include the phrase, "Eternally Begotten"... just, "Begotten."
If the term Eternally Unbegotten was in scpriture, there would be no confusion, it would be very simple to grasp.I think the nicence creed qualifies why they use "begotten" instead of "unbegotten". "Unbegotten" seems to imply seperate/dinstinct from the Father, and that wasn't their intent. They use "begotten" and surround it with phrases like:
"light of light"
"true God of true God"
"...not made"
"one substance"
The man-made term, "Eternally Begotten" makes no sense. Surrounding it with poetic phrases and calling it a title does not make it a logical statement.
The biblical statement reads, "The Only Begotten Son"
Begotten = Offspring
Which leads many to believe this refers to His Human birth... Conceived of the Holy Spirit.
I'm talking about Jesus, not Abraham...Again:
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son
Is Abraham talking about physical birth with Isaac? Was Isaac Abraham's "only begotten son". No. There was Ishmael. "Only begotten son" doesn't necessarily refer to physical birth. Here it's talking about Isaac as being unique in the sense that the covenant is going to be fulfilled through him. The only other example of where a "begotten son" type of phrase occurs (that I'm aware of) is in Psalm 2:
Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying ,
...
2:6 Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."
"I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
That doesn't refer to birth either. That's refering to the kings unique relation to God and to Israel. In neither case does "begotten" refer to physical birth.
Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten son...."
Jn 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him "
The phrase is, like Hebrews, used to demonstrate Jesus' uniqeness in His relation to the Father. What exactly that uniqueness really is and what it entails is what John goes at lengths to show in his gospel.
I think the Nicene council is trying to summarize a lot of information from the entire bible when they say "eternally begotten" and aren't necessarily trying to repeat the phrase as it occurs in John 1:18 and 3:16.
He's relaying that the TERM "only begotten" doesn't mean SIRED (created by another), or that one is an ONLY child - or the first and only child...I'm talking about Jesus, not Abraham...
Logic is left behind, when one incorporates poetic licence.
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7269600
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