Did Jesus assert that some OT laws weren't God's ideal

[eider]

If the disciples had understood Jesus' teaching to be either the Hillel or the Gamaliel teachings, they would not have been astonished and dismayed. They were astonished and dismayed because they fully understood Jesus was saying something new to them...and very much more restrictive than anyone else was teaching.

Hi........ But Jesus was not speaking tgo them..... he was answering to malicious Pharisees.
The disciples often misunderstood what Jesus said to others. They often needed explanations. And so on this occasion it is hard for me to perceive that they were clear-as-day and crystal clear about what he meant, until he (soon after) addressed them directly.

 

[eider]

They didn't misunderstand that. Hence, their dismay.

They were often dismayed, and unclear about Jesus's purpose.

There are two "tills" in that statement. The first "till" indicates that nothing will change until the second "till" occurs.

Yep....... Till Heaven and Earth shall pass away.
That'll do me!

 

[Dirk1540]

The ambivalence scripture has regarding polygamy, as I have discussed on another thread, also troubles me and tends to make me sceptical.

Well don't be skeptical, just know that polygamy is flat out allowed. Any attempt anyone ever gave to claim that the Bible is against polygamy is the worst case of reading in between lines.

 

[janxharris]

Well don't be skeptical, just know that polygamy is flat out allowed. Any attempt anyone ever gave to claim that the Bible is against polygamy is the worst case of reading in between lines.

That would take some proving.

 

[Dirk1540]

There's literally an OT law on how to handle inheritance if you love one wife more than another. Yet I don't see a single verse in scripture speaking out against it. So I said to myself why am I creating contradictions for myself where they don't even exist?? Please don't mistake me I'm not a Morman, just saying I agree with you that contradictions can work me up, but why create them where they don't even exist. Sorry let me rephrase, alleged contradictions! There are some contradictions that disappear after an archaeological discovery, so how many 'Contradictions' are one discovery away from being disproved??

 

[janxharris]

There's literally an OT law on how to handle inheritance if you love one wife more than another. Yet I don't see a single verse in scripture speaking out against it. So I said to myself why am I creating contradictions for myself where they don't even exist?? Please don't mistake me I'm not a Morman, just saying I agree with you that contradictions can work me up, but why create them where they don't even exist. Sorry let me rephrase, alleged contradictions! There are some contradictions that disappear after an archaeological discovery, so how many 'Contradictions' are one discovery away from being disproved??

Thanks.

Do you not accept the point made by Ellicott in the OP?

 

[Dirk1540]

Thanks.

Do you not accept the point made by Ellicott in the OP?

It sounds accurate. It sounds like me and you have 2 different thought processes though about God and the OT/NT. I see a God that all throughout the Bible is making deals/covenents with people for better or worse. I mean literally He even honors deals that were struck out of deception (like when Rebeca and Jacob deceived Esau out of his blessing). Even curses that affect future generations for the sins of fathers are honored. This to me points in the direction of a God that moves more in rhythm with human actions, and will actually bend against His ideal standard as he works with us humans. Prayer for instance becomes HUGE. Moses pleaded with God to spare his people, GOD DECLARED he would destroy them and start over again!! Do you know how long that 'Contradiction' bothered me? But God 'Repented' (which means a change of heart or mind) and worked a deal with Moses and let the people live, translation he answered Moses' prayer! I see a God in the Bible that brings truth to the cliche 'Be careful what you pray for it might come true.'

I remember years ago I listened to my Vernon McGee Thru The Bible audio commentary. He would often make this comment 'God granted their wishes but it brought leanness to their souls.' Meaning that God would have preferred 'A', but he granted the people/person 'B' even though God knew it was not ideal. God did not want Israel to adopt a King for instance...the Jews pleaded 'We want a King like the surrounding nations!!' So God granted them their King, he granted their wishes but it brought leanness to their souls. There's a brain teaser for you, did God foresee Israel's future demand for a King in pre-Saul Biblical prophecies about the Kingly blood line???? Anyway, if you add up all of these situations over time where God bends against His ideal due to human prayer and public pleading...you may very well end up with a history of God and his people that looks contradictory to the ideals that He teaches. God granted divorce...'God granted their wishes but it brought leanness to their souls!!'

Another way I might think differently than you is that I do not view the OT Law, and the NT 'Covenant' that we are under now as Part 1, and then Part 2 of our world's realities. Sorry I know lots of people argue that but I don't see it that way. The Jewish people in the OT made up a TINY TINY spec of the world's population. This new 'Part 2' covenant is literally a deal for THE ENTIRE WORLD today. The Jewish people were literally God's chosen people, they were 'A Kingdom of Priests.' They were literally called to be a light to the rest of the world to reveal the nature of the true God. Do you know how much pressure and responsibility that is?? Do you know how high that sets the bar for a people?? And the higher the bar, the more sever the disciplinary action. That bar was set so much higher for them than the rest of the OT world.

I think of it like this, compare my easy as pie lifestyle to that of a Navy Seal. My life is a cake walk. But a Navy Seal is under a much more strict CONTRACT of life than me. Do you know how much higher the bar is set for a Navy Seal? They literally go through mandatory water boarding torture training!! Think about how high the bar is set for God almighty's chosen 'Kingdom of Priests' who are to be a light to the rest of the nations! And then...look at how terrible Israel failed at their job. CONSTANT idolatry of foreign gods all throughout the OT. So, how bad is a punishment for a people with that HUGE responsibility? That's the OT Law. I look at the analogy of OT Israel being like a nation of Navy Seals. We are talking about a very very tiny group of people, with a very very STRICT mission, and very very strict disciplinary actions. The covenant that we are under today is a blanket deal for the entire world. IMHO that's the way I look at it.

Now that I sit here typing about how drastically strict and unique the OT Jews' lives were, I almost wonder about recanting my last post lol...maybe their situation was so unique that they simply needed polygamy for Jewish population growth in order to carry out God's mission.

 

[RDKirk]

Now that I sit here typing about how drastically strict and unique the OT Jews' lives were, I almost wonder about recanting my last post lol...maybe their situation was so unique that they simply needed polygamy for Jewish population growth in order to carry out God's mission.

You were kind of all right until this last.

The real situation is actually the opposite. The Mosaic law was relatively easy. Even God Himself said, "What I have commanded is not too difficult for you" (Deuteronomy 30).

The 613 requirements of the Mosaic Law are possible within a man's own strength. The Mosaic Law allows compromise because "your hearts were hard."

The Sermon on the Mount is much harder. It's a whole magnitude of greater difficulty. It's possible only through the Holy Spirit.

 

[janxharris]

You were kind of all right until this last.

The real situation is actually the opposite. The Mosaic law was relatively easy. Even God Himself said, "What I have commanded is not too difficult for you" (Deuteronomy 30).

The 613 requirements of the Mosaic Law are possible within a man's own strength. The Mosaic Law allows compromise because "your hearts were hard."

The Sermon on the Mount is much harder. It's a whole magnitude of greater difficulty. It's possible only through the Holy Spirit.

Romans 9:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

 

[Dirk1540]

You were kind of all right until this last.

Yeah I was just taking a stab at speculation there, I ruined my post with my afterthought lol

 

[RDKirk]

Romans 9:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

And so?

 

[janxharris]

And so?

You said:
The 613 requirements of the Mosaic Law are possible within a man's own strength.

Romans 9:30-32 says the opposite.

So too Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 3.

 

[janxharris]

It sounds accurate. It sounds like me and you have 2 different thought processes though about God and the OT/NT. I see a God that all throughout the Bible is making deals/covenents with people for better or worse. I mean literally He even honors deals that were struck out of deception (like when Rebeca and Jacob deceived Esau out of his blessing). Even curses that affect future generations for the sins of fathers are honored. This to me points in the direction of a God that moves more in rhythm with human actions, and will actually bend against His ideal standard as he works with us humans. Prayer for instance becomes HUGE. Moses pleaded with God to spare his people, GOD DECLARED he would destroy them and start over again!! Do you know how long that 'Contradiction' bothered me? But God 'Repented' (which means a change of heart or mind) and worked a deal with Moses and let the people live, translation he answered Moses' prayer! I see a God in the Bible that brings truth to the cliche 'Be careful what you pray for it might come true.'

I remember years ago I listened to my Vernon McGee Thru The Bible audio commentary. He would often make this comment 'God granted their wishes but it brought leanness to their souls.' Meaning that God would have preferred 'A', but he granted the people/person 'B' even though God knew it was not ideal. God did not want Israel to adopt a King for instance...the Jews pleaded 'We want a King like the surrounding nations!!' So God granted them their King, he granted their wishes but it brought leanness to their souls. There's a brain teaser for you, did God foresee Israel's future demand for a King in pre-Saul Biblical prophecies about the Kingly blood line???? Anyway, if you add up all of these situations over time where God bends against His ideal due to human prayer and public pleading...you may very well end up with a history of God and his people that looks contradictory to the ideals that He teaches. God granted divorce...'God granted their wishes but it brought leanness to their souls!!'

Indeed - looks very contradictory.

 

[Dirk1540]

You said:
The 613 requirements of the Mosaic Law are possible within a man's own strength.

Yeah I have major doubts about anyone keeping the Law...other than Jesus.

 

[Dirk1540]

Indeed - looks very contradictory.

But I was pointing out why it can look contradictory. On the one hand you have God bending and compromising on his ideal all throughout Biblical history, because he is dealing with us imperfect humans. On the other hand you have God stating what his ideal is in the Bible.

 

[janxharris]

But I was pointing out why it can look contradictory. On the one hand you have God bending and compromising on his ideal all throughout Biblical history, because he is dealing with us imperfect humans. On the other hand you have God stating what his ideal is in the Bible.

But even if it merely looks contradictory then it wont necessarily engender faith. One might quite easily infer that it not only looks but actually is contradictory. Reading about OT polygamy WITHOUT any explicit explanation from God as to why it was permitted remains baffling.

 

[Dirk1540]

But even if it merely looks contradictory then it wont necessarily engender faith. One might quite easily infer that it not only looks but actually is contradictory.

Not in my personal experience. I actually spent years pulling my hair out at how much more faith Christians had than me. They seemed to not care one bit if they could not solve a contradiction. My opinion was that most Christians are TOO HEAVY on faith. But that's just me though, I have low faith. My explanation of faith vs proof is this...there is faith, then their is EMPTY faith. For me it is about reaching a 'Tipping Point.' I started years ago with this assumption, The Bible is just stories from thousands of years ago from superstitious ancient people...period. Ok so the journey begins...in my mind I thought of a scale. Every time I uncover something that seems to go beyond a bunch of ancient idiots who believed in a magic god in the sky, I placed that 'Something' on my imaginary scale. Even if it just weighed an ounce. I constantly asked myself the question "Does this piece of info jive with a 2,000/5,000 year old fairy tale?" If it did not, if it surprisingly raised my eyebrow, I threw it on my imaginary scale. Over the years I found that my imaginary scale just started to weigh too much. Having a scale that weighs too much, YET also having unsolved questions, AND giving in...that is faith. Having an empty scale, and just diving in anyway...that is EMPTY faith.

How do I throw out the weight on my scale?? That's my question. IF these are a bunch of idiots from the middle East from thousands of years ago there's no way my scale would way this much. I have NO WEIGHT on my scale for Islam, NONE! It totally baffles me how anyone could be intellectually converted to it!! I do understand if you were brought up into it from childhood however. I have NOTHING on my religion scale for any other religion as well. Every other religion started out as a myth, and simply remained so (no weight added to my scale). That means it would be 100% EMPTY faith for me to believe in those other religions.

So, how heavy was my scale tipping point before I took the leap?? THAT is a personal question! In my opinion THAT is why an archeaologist like William Ramsey turned to Christianity, yet most archaeologist do not...IMO most archaeologist, and most people for that matter, have a very very heavy standards for a tipping point. And I also believe that a huge part of the problem is that most people are only tossing intellectual weights onto their scales, as opposed to personal 'Jesus' experience weights. If you notice, I said most people are very light on needing intellectual proof. I just think that most people consider their internal experiences as being undisputable 1,000 lb weights...and for most people there's simply NOBODY who can tell them any different, they know it's genuine. Well as far as Christians that is. On the other hand you have non-Christians, they require about 10,000 lbs of intellectual proof, and intellectual proof ONLY. And unless they get it they are not sold!!!

So, anyway, when you say "Even if it merely looks contradictory then it wont necessarily engender faith..." Sorry but that doesn't apply to me because I'm absorbed in the fine details. Not saying I'm awesome at the fine details but I'm trying my best to look at them. And #2 the people who are not into the fine details, the ones who are sold on their personal experiences, they are willing to let their faith out weigh these things that look like contradictions. They usually say to themselves "There has to be a logical explanation, but I just don't know it." Furthermore, from time to time, there is a discovery that vindicates an objection. So sometimes these people will say to themselves "Who's to say this won't be resolved 10 years from now?"

Reading about OT polygamy WITHOUT any explicit explanation from God as to why it was permitted remains baffling.

I'm sorry, I quite simply do not believe the Bible teaches against polygamy. I'm not saying I'm a Mormon though lol.

I've observed both sides of the argument...IMHO i find the side that argues for a Biblical case against polygamy as routinely reading between lines.

 

[janxharris]

Not in my personal experience. I actually spent years pulling my hair out at how much more faith Christians had than me. They seemed to not care one bit if they could not solve a contradiction. My opinion was that most Christians are TOO HEAVY on faith. But that's just me though, I have low faith. My explanation of faith vs proof is this...there is faith, then their is EMPTY faith. For me it is about reaching a 'Tipping Point.' I started years ago with this assumption, The Bible is just stories from thousands of years ago from superstitious ancient people...period. Ok so the journey begins...in my mind I thought of a scale. Every time I uncover something that seems to go beyond a bunch of ancient idiots who believed in a magic god in the sky, I placed that 'Something' on my imaginary scale. Even if it just weighed an ounce. I constantly asked myself the question "Does this piece of info jive with a 2,000/5,000 year old fairy tale?" If it did not, if it surprisingly raised my eyebrow, I threw it on my imaginary scale. Over the years I found that my imaginary scale just started to weigh too much. Having a scale that weighs too much, YET also having unsolved questions, AND giving in...that is faith. Having an empty scale, and just diving in anyway...that i EMPTY faith.

I always assume that it is Jesus's death and resurrection that enables Christians to overlook seeming contradictions. That Jesus is said to have died for them thus enabling their salvation is so overwhelming (to them) that carping about this or that scripture seems trivial.

How do I throw out the weight on my scale?? That's my question. IF these are a bunch of idiots from the middle East from thousands of years ago there's no way my scale would way this much. I have NO WEIGHT on my scale for Islam, NONE! Totally baffles me how anyone could be intellectually converted to it!! I do understand if you were brought up into it. I have NOTHING on my religion scale for any other religion as well.

So, how heavy was my scale tipping point before I took the leap?? THAT is a personal question! In my opinion THAT is why an archeaologist like William Ramsey turned to Christianity, yet most archaeologist do not...IMO most archaeologist, and most people for that matter, have a very very heavy standards for a tipping point.

And I also believe that a huge part of the problem is that most people are only tossing intellectual weights onto their scales, as opposed to personal 'Jesus' experience weights.

How does one even know that they have had a personal Jesus experience?

If you notice, I said most people are very light on needing intellectual proof. I just think that most people consider their internal experiences as being undisputable 1,000 lb weights...and for most people there's simply NOBODY who can tell them any different, they know it's genuine. Well as far as Christians that is. On the other hand you have non-Christians, they require about 10,000 lbs of intellectual proof, and intellectual proof ONLY. And unless they get it they are not sold!!!

Nothing wrong with wanting proof.

I'm sorry, I quite simply do not believe the Bible teaches against polygamy. I'm not saying I'm a Mormon though lol.

But you said you agreed with Ellicott.

Romans 7:3b teaches against polygamy. And Matthew 19:5-6.

 

[Dirk1540]

I always assume that it is Jesus's death and resurrection that enables Christians to overlook seeming contradictions. That Jesus is said to have died for them thus enabling their salvation is so overwhelming (to them) that carping about this or that scripture seems trivial.

I completely agree with that, however I am going to show inaccuracy trying to label everyone in one post. I actually see this as a staple 'In the mind of an intellectually seeking Christian!!' But, I happen to know quite a few very very poor intellectual Christians. So yes, I not only totally agree that Jesus is the focal point of a historical inquiry (tangible proof), but I also agree the the NT is a lot richer when in comes to the value of historical investigation than the OT. That is why I'm willing to pour myself into a Jesus study, and IF SATISFIED give Jesus the benefit of the doubt when he makes statements that place his stamp of approval on the OT.

I have also said MANY times...IF my entire investigation is 'What is the answer to what lies on the other side of death?' Why on Earth would I waste my time even entertaining the opinion of anyone who did not even claim to have gone to the other side of death, and come back to talk about it??? That makes no sense to me! Again, please explain to me why I'm listening to Muhammad about the other side of death when he didn't even claim to have beaten death??? Would I hire someone who never did roof work to put a new roof on my house?? As far as I see it the resurrection is indeed the focal point of the investigation for pure logical standards, because it's life after death that's the question in the first place. But my previous post included people who have a very low bar as far as historical investigation.

How does one even know that they have had a personal Jesus experience?

Don't get me started lol. I consider myself SO SO lucky. I had an off the charts experience 20 years ago. I talked about it in a previous post. However, even in the post I said that it is a shame that ONLY I can consider it 'Proof.' That it's a shame that everyone else has to take my story with a grain of salt. I'm sorry that I can't prove it to you, but I know full well what a genuine Jesus experience is.

Nothing wrong with wanting proof.

You're preaching to the choir lol

But you said you agreed with Ellicott.

Romans 7:3b teaches against polygamy. And Matthew 19:5-6.

Sorry I might have just skimmed the Ellicott quote. The problem is that I totally see Romans 7:3 as a woman only being freed from GOD'S COVENANT of marriage between her and her husband in the event of the husband's death. These 2 people are joined. SHE can not sleep with another man. I mean, are we not considered ALL the bride of Christ in the afterlife? I'm not trying to push for having 5 wives!! I'm just saying that I have enough on my plate with how involved Biblical study gets. I don't feel like laying something on my shoulders that I don't even feel is there.

 

[RDKirk]

You said:
The 613 requirements of the Mosaic Law are possible within a man's own strength.

Romans 9:30-32 says the opposite.

So too Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 3.

No, you misunderstand the basic words of both me and Romans 9.

I said that the 613 requirements of the Mosaic law are possible within a man's own strength, and indeed they are. There isn't a single one of those 613 requirements that a man can't physically perform, and in fact, the Pharisees did...scrupulously, every single one of them. Jesus even acknowledged that they did. And God said they could: "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach." Deuteronomy 30

Romans 9 is talking about righteousness and salvation. Performing the 613 requirements of the Mosaic Law had nothing to do with righteousness and salvation, and that is Paul's point.

If you are arguing with me that performing the 613 requirements of the Mosaic Law are the requirements for salvation, then you totally misunderstand what Paul was saying.