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Did God want Samson to violate a statute of Moses?

Maori Aussie

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If the Kushites or Midianites were not Gentile, what do you suggest they were? They were the descendants of Abraham through Midian, a son of Abraham by his second wife, They were not a part of God's covenant as they were not descendants of Isaac or Jacob. In general, the Old Testament refers to anyone that was not of the nation of Israel as Gentiles. The Midianites (and Kushites) most probably did not worship God. I will quote further from Wikipedia (which I hate to take at face value without further research) which sums it up quite well. "The Midianites through their apparent religio-political connection with the Moabites, are thought to have worshipped a multitude of gods, including Baal-peor and the Queen of Heaven, Ashteroth. The Old Testament often describes Gentiles as tribes who worship other gods. So by that measure, she was a Gentile. The only exception seems to be Jethro, Moses father-in-law, who it seems had knowledge of and a belief in the Jewish God. In Exodus 18:9-11 (KJV) we read;
"9 And Jethro rejoiced for all the goodness which the Lord had done to Israel, whom he had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.10 And Jethro said, Blessed be the Lord, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.11 Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.".
If she was not Gentile, then why did Aaron and Miriam have such a problem with her?
Simply put, IMHO Miriam had a problem with Zipporah's Kushite skin tone.
Miriam is named before Aaron in the narrative here.
And God punished Miriam (the instigator) for that.
God made Miriam's "skin as white as snow" (with leprosy).
That might be a clue....

So, Zipporah, daughter of a priest of the God most high.
Chosen by Moses, the great prophet of God to be his wife.
Was, you argue, a Gentile...
Also, note how God used the Kenite woman Jael to conclude Israel's military campaign against Sisera and the other enemies of God.
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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Simply put, IMHO Miriam had a problem with Zipporah's Kushite skin tone.
Miriam is named before Aaron in the narrative here.
And God punished Miriam (the instigator) for that.
God made Miriam's "skin as white as snow" (with leprosy).
That might be a clue....

So, Zipporah, daughter of a priest of the God most high.
Chosen by Moses, the great prophet of God to be his wife.
Was, you argue, a Gentile...
Also, note how God used the Kenite woman Jael to conclude Israel's military campaign against Sisera and the other enemies of God.
I didn't want to mention the skin color thing so as not to start another controversy. I used to use the skin color angle on Christians who said God forbids interracial marriage. As for Jethro being a priest, while the Bible record doesn't go into detail, many scholars believe that he was a priest of one of the Cushite deities before meeting Moses. this is based on what seems to be his conversion in Exodus 18:5-12. In the KJV it reads;

"5And Jethro, Moses' father in law, came with his sons and his wife unto Moses into the wilderness, where he encamped at the mount of God: 6And he said unto Moses, I thy father in law Jethro am come unto thee, and thy wife, and her two sons with her. 7And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent. 8And Moses told his father in law all that the LORD had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, and all the travail that had come upon them by the way, and how the LORD delivered them. 9And Jethro rejoiced for all the goodness which the LORD had done to Israel, whom he had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians. 10And Jethro said, Blessed be the LORD, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians. 11Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. 12And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.

The key verse here is Verse 11 where Jethro says "NOW I know that the Lord is greater than all gods". The fact that he says "NOW" I KNOW indicates that he hadn't believed or known it before then and this is long after they were married. Moses had already returned to Egypt and had already led the Exodus.

I have long accepted this idea as when Moses fled Egypt in Exodus 2:15-21, Zipphora and her sisters introduced Moses to Jethro as an Egyptian. 19And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water enough for us, and watered the flock. 20And he said unto his daughters, And where is he? why is it that ye have left the man? call him, that he may eat bread. 21And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter.Remember Moses had been raised as an Egyptian and this passage may indicate that Jethro nor Zipphora even realized he was Jewish at this time.
 
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Maori Aussie

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The key verse here is Verse 11 where Jethro says "NOW I know that the Lord is greater than all gods". The fact that he says "NOW" I KNOW indicates that he hadn't believed or known it before then and this is long after they were married. Moses had already returned to Egypt and had already led the Exodus.

I have long accepted this idea as when Moses fled Egypt in Exodus 2:15-21, Zipphora and her sisters introduced Moses to Jethro as an Egyptian. 19And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water enough for us, and watered the flock. 20And he said unto his daughters, And where is he? why is it that ye have left the man? call him, that he may eat bread. 21And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. Remember Moses had been raised as an Egyptian and this passage may indicate that Jethro nor Zipphora even realized he was Jewish at this time.
I believe that the "mountain of God" where Moses encountered YHWH was in Midianite territory as Moses was working for Jethro at the time of his encounter with the burning bush. I note that God described that place as holy ground, and if that place had previously been a place of worship for another god, I suspect God's repugnance would have prevented that.
I accept that Jethro may have had other gods (Ashera etc) in addition to JHWH before the Exodus, but I going with the belief that Jethro was familiar with JHWH at least. Perhaps like Noah, Jethro was not perfect, rather, God's least flawed option?
I don't hold with the genealogical explanations: "Don't say we are safe because we are children of Abraham".
The narrative is full of examples of individuals (mostly women) and groups (e.g. Kenites) 'opting into' the tribes of Israel.
There is another angle. Abraham offered tithes to Melchizedek, a priest of the God Most High.
Melchizedek was not "Jewish", Israelite or Hebrew.
But Abraham saw their God as the same.
I would argue that God did speak to Abraham, but God also seemed to be having discussions on the side with the likes of Melchizedek as well.
Keeping His options open?
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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I believe that the "mountain of God" where Moses encountered YHWH was in Midianite territory as Moses was working for Jethro at the time of his encounter with the burning bush. I note that God described that place as holy ground, and if that place had previously been a place of worship for another god, I suspect God's repugnance would have prevented that.
I accept that Jethro may have had other gods (Ashera etc) in addition to JHWH before the Exodus, but I going with the belief that Jethro was familiar with JHWH at least.
I don't hold with the genealogical explanations: "Don't say we are safe because we are children of Abraham".
The narrative is full of examples of individuals (mostly women) and groups (e.g. Kenites) 'opting into' the tribes of Israel.
There is another angle. Abraham offered tithes to Melchizedek, a priest of the God Most High.
Melchizedek was not "Jewish", Israelite or Hebrew.
But Abraham saw their God as the same.
I would argue that God did speak to Abraham, but God also seemed to be having discussions on the side with the likes of Melchizedek as well.
Keeping His options open?
I, too believe, as do many scholars, that the mountain of God was in Midianite territory. I doubt seriously that the holy ground on which Moses stood was a place of worship for other gods as well. I also believe that he probably was familiar with YHWH (I like that you use a literal transliteration) as they crossed paths with the Israelites on sundry occasions, in some instances, not so pleasantly. Numbers 31;1-12 tells us;

"1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 3And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. 4Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war. 5So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. 7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho."

And of course Gideon again went to battle with the Midianites. So, they were pretty familiar with each other.

At any rate no one knows exactly what religion he really practiced and the only evidence we have of his conversion to Judaism is the reference in Exodus 18 as I mentioned earlier. It is ironic in a way that the Druze religion to this day hold Jethro, in Arabic known as Shuaib, in high regard as the most revered prophet of their faith. As a matter of Jewish Law, whether or not Jethro did at the time, Zipphora would have had to convert to marry Moses. Prominent author Akaya Kitchen, wrote an article for "Lifting up Zion" entitled "When Jews and Gentiles come together:Moses and Jethro".

You mention Melchizedek. Dr. William Varner, Theologian, author and Professor of Biblical Studies & Greek at the Master's University, wrote an interesting article entitled "Jethro and Melchizedek: Two Righteous Gentiles". I can't find anywhere that confirms it but I have to believe that he did indeed convert and became a priest of YHWH. The only Biblical references to Melchizedek are in Genesis 14:18-20 where he gives Abraham bread and wine (which many Cathloics call the first Eucharist) after he had rescued Lot, Psalm 110:4 where we find the somewhat cryptic "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.", and lastly in the book of Hebrews where Paul calls him "Called of God an high priest". I can't say one way or the other whether God actually spoke to or through him at any time but he is one of those mysterious characters that God used in His plan. Anyway, this all started as an attempt to answer the original poster as to whether God told Samson to disobey a law. Wow
 
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Maori Aussie

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By speculation, I believe that the one common identifier of the grouping that escaped Egypt, was what the Egyptians called them all i.e. Ha-pi-ru. IMHO they collected other waifs and strays, before, during and for a very long time afterward. By speculation, I believe that they have connections with Kenites, Edomites, Kushites, Hittites, Hurrians, their Assyrian cousins and probably many others. But, over time, two things happened. Their identity as Israelites emerged, and they came into conflict over time with... well, pretty much everybody else... and a narrow view of genealogy took root in their culture.
A Christian Assyrian friend of mine told me about a bus tour he had in Turkey in the 1970s. There were some Israeli Jews on the bus. One came over to him and very politely asked how Assyrians felt about Jews. My Assyrian friend replied, "Where was Abraham born???". "Ur". "You are our cousins, and privately, we are very proud of your achievements...".
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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Maori Aussie

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Tony. I have a big favour to ask, if you ever have time. The Churches teach "the ten Commandments", BUT the Commandments quoted by Jesus in the NT are different. Yes, I know some of the OT 10 are not quoted by Jesus. So, even just for you and me to be sure that we are obedient to the LORD, perhaps a definitive list of "commandments" of Jesus in the NT???
 
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tonychanyt

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Tony. I have a big favour to ask, if you ever have time. The Churches teach "the ten Commandments", BUT the Commandments quoted by Jesus in the NT are different. Yes, I know some of the OT 10 are not quoted by Jesus. So, even just for you and me to be sure that we are obedient to the LORD, perhaps a definitive list of "commandments" of Jesus in the NT???
See 10 Commandments: To keep or not to keep? :)
 
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tonychanyt

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34 “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
KJV John 13:34-35
Right but that's not one of the 10 commandments. Jesus gave many other commandments as well.
 
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Maori Aussie

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I still don't quite get your point. What exactly was your original request?
"Tony. I have a big favour to ask, if you ever have time. The Churches teach "the ten Commandments", BUT the Commandments quoted by Jesus in the NT are different. Yes, I know some of the OT 10 are not quoted by Jesus. So, even just for you and me to be sure that we are obedient to the LORD, perhaps a definitive list of "commandments" of Jesus in the NT???"
 
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tonychanyt

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"Tony. I have a big favour to ask, if you ever have time. The Churches teach "the ten Commandments", BUT the Commandments quoted by Jesus in the NT are different. Yes, I know some of the OT 10 are not quoted by Jesus. So, even just for you and me to be sure that we are obedient to the LORD, perhaps a definitive list of "commandments" of Jesus in the NT???"
Are you looking for a definitive list of Jesus' commandments for Christians to follow today?
 
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Maori Aussie

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Are you looking for a definitive list of Jesus' commandments for Christians to follow today?
Yes. Exactly. So not "sayings" unless Jesus is interpreting a historical commandment. And, is the Greek for the new commandment/s the same as for commandment when Jesus refers to the OT 10.
 
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