Did God predestine the Fall?

[ToBeLoved]

“ But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:3-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Regeneration...justification (which comes by faith)

I don’t think Titus 3:3-7 supports your case. Because no one denies that regeneration takes place DURING SALVATION, the error is that God regenerates BEFORE we come to Him in faith.

So, looking at Titus 3:3-7 SPECIFICALLY as to when in the process regeneration happens, I think it is clear in the scripture that since it is THROUGH CHRIST that the Holy Spirit does His work, than one must COME TO Christ BEFORE regeneration occurs.

NOTE: “which he shed on us abundantly, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST our Savior”

“But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:4-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Titus 3:4-7 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, a | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why the lie?

It’s not a lie. It is part of TULIP.

If God must intervene, than people’s only hope is to wait on God’s intervention.

Twisting verbage around doesn’t change the intercession that must happen before faith.

You can decide to not be a Calvinist anymore if you believe a man does not need that intervention.

It’s not that complicated. But a very important piece of theology.

If you disagree with TULIP please state that and I will praise God

 

[ToBeLoved]

Good day,

Something tells me we have a mix-up between Hyper vs the doctrines of Grace.

It is the Gospel that is the hope of fallen men, as a Calvinist I understand that is the only power of God unto salvation. I think if you read Calvin on the purpose of His own Missionary school that sent preachers into his home land he understood that. Historically Calvinist have been the at the forefront of Gospel out reach for 100's of years..

Edwards, Carey, Spurgeon all Preachers of Gospel and used mightily of God with the instrument of the Gospel.. It really saves people just as God intended it to.

In Him,

Bill

Although I can understand and appreciate what you are saying, Reformed theology specifically hangs its hat upon the TuLIP theology which is well documented.

These tenants are the basis of the Reformed position.

 

[Hammster]

I don’t think Titus 3:3-7 supports your case. Because no one denies that regeneration takes place DURING SALVATION, the error is that God regenerates BEFORE we come to Him in faith.

So, looking at Titus 3:3-7 SPECIFICALLY as to when in the process regeneration happens, I think it is clear in the scripture that since it is THROUGH CHRIST that the Holy Spirit does His work, than one must COME TO Christ BEFORE regeneration occurs.

NOTE: “which he shed on us abundantly, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST our Savior”

“But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:4-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Titus 3:4-7 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, a | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

I think you are ignoring the “not by works” part.

 

[Hammster]

It’s not a lie. It is part of TULIP.

If God must intervene, than people’s only hope is to wait on God’s intervention.

Twisting verbage around doesn’t change the intercession that must happen before faith.

You can decide to not be a Calvinist anymore if you believe a man does not need that intervention.

It’s not that complicated. But a very important piece of theology.

If you disagree with TULIP please state that and I will praise God

Does Calvinism Kill Missions?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think you are ignoring the “not by works” part.

Not at all.

Works have nothing to do with this discussion.

Are you trying to say faith is a work? That would be a strange one because that invalidates Christ and the entire New Covenant.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Does Calvinism Kill Missions?

Almost every church support missions.

I’m not sure with every church doing it, why you think it’s special to Calvinism

 

[Hammster]

Not at all.

Works have nothing to do with this discussion.

Are you trying to say faith is a work? That would be a strange one because that invalidates Christ and the entire New Covenant.

Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." - John 6:29

 

[Hammster]

Almost every church support missions.

I’m not sure with every church doing it, why you think it’s special to Calvinism

I don’t.

Maybe you should go back and see what post I quoted.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." - John 6:29

Of course God wants us to believe in Christ.

Not sure what this proves as far as when regeneration takes place though.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don’t.

Maybe you should go back and see what post I quoted.

I addressed the link you provided to an article. Did you not post a link to an article

 

[dad]

You keep acting as if I’ve said man doesn’t have a choice. That’s a seriously disingenuous representation of my view, and I really wish you’d stop. It comes across as petty.

Wish we could have clear positions. Perhaps your view is different from Calvinist views. Who knows? I should be careful with what I say your view is since it is still a mystery after scores of posts.

 

[Hammster]

Of course God wants us to believe in Christ.

Not sure what this proves as far as when regeneration takes place though.

Did he say that belief is a work?

 

[Hammster]

I addressed the link you provided to an article. Did you not post a link to an article

Yes, because you lied about Calvinism and evangelism.

 

[Hammster]

Wish we could have clear positions. Perhaps your view is different from Calvinist views. Who knows? I should be careful with what I say your view is since it is still a mystery after scores of posts.

Well, I can’t make you understand, that’s for sure.

 

[dad]

“Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3-8, 10-13, 15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Born again...belief

Belief which grows after we choose to come to Jesus. It is closer to a desire to believe, or a sincere seeking at first in many cases apparently.

“For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:3-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Regeneration...justification (which comes by faith)

Which comes with our choice to be saved.

“in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:2-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Made alive...faith

Made alive after we choose to believe in Jesus/get saved/come to Him etc

 

[dad]

I’m glad you said this because while we are getting the gospel out so all will hear and come to faith, Calvinism teaches that people should just hang out and wait for the Holy Spirit to regenerate the lost.

Many of us know 1000’s of people unsaved that Calvinist theology offers no hope to.

God is a God of hope. Scripture even defines faith as a hope.

Let's see if a Calvinist can come up with more than one liners and respond to these charges. I think I can see how a person would think there would be no hope offered, if it was all pre arranged and we had no choice, and that only a select few were pre chosen etc.

 

[dad]

Well, I can’t make you understand, that’s for sure.

Right, so unless there is fresh opinions and people explaining how Adam and all men had no real choice, it seems like we might not get anywhere in this thread. I don't find your posts clear or simple.

 

[Hammster]

Belief which grows after we choose to come to Jesus. It is closer to a desire to believe, or a sincere seeking at first in many cases apparently.
Which comes with our choice to be saved.
Made alive after we choose to believe in Jesus/get saved/come to Him etc

All you did, basically, is say that scripture gets it wrong. I gave you three passages that have regeneration coming before faith, and you basically added in “after you chose” to each of them. That’s called eisegesis.

 

[Hammster]

Let's see if a Calvinist can come up with more than one liners and respond to these charges. I think I can see how a person would think there would be no hope offered, if it was all pre arranged and we had no choice, and that only a select few were pre chosen etc.

I posted a link.