Did God predestine the Fall?

[mark kennedy]

Ephesians 2 Paul tells us we are children of wrath and dead in our sins until God makes us alive in Christ Jesus.

“Wake up, O sleeper,

rise up from the dead,

and Christ will shine on you.”

Christ mentioned in connection with the gospel, that's refreshing.

 

[Serving Zion]

I’ll try one last time. Does man deserve to be saved? Why or why not?

I think it is clear by God's actions that He does think so (John 3:16, Matthew 9:13) .. up to a point (Revelation 21:8, John 3:19-21, Exodus 20:7).

 

[Hammster]

I think it is clear by God's actions that He does think so (John 3:16, Matthew 19:13) .. up to a point (Revelation 21:8, John 3:19-21, Exodus 20:7).

So God is acting out of some sort of obligation?

 

[Serving Zion]

So God is acting out of some sort of obligation?

I would say so, according to His nature (1 Corinthians 13:6-7).

 

[Hammster]

I would say so, according to His nature (1 Corinthians 13:6-7).

I think you need to rethink this. If you think you deserve to be saved, then there’s something wrong somewhere.

 

[Serving Zion]

I think you need to rethink this. If you think you deserve to be saved, then there’s something wrong somewhere.

What makes you so sure of that?

 

[Hammster]

What makes you so sure of that?

Because it doesn’t seem that you understand that you are like the children of wrath who deserve hell.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because it doesn’t seem that you understand that you are like the children of wrath who deserve hell.

God has already decided. The gift is that we don’t deserve salvation, but that God has, in His mercy, given us Jesus Christ.

 

[Serving Zion]

Because it doesn’t seem that you understand that you are like the children of wrath who deserve hell.

That isn't any kind of justice, is it? "Children of wrath" hmmm...

 

[ToBeLoved]

That isn't any kind of justice, is it? "Children of wrath" hmmm...

That’s how Calvinist explain the people who God doesn’t choose.

 

[Serving Zion]

That’s how Calvinist explain the people who God doesn’t choose.

Oh, that's sad. Doesn't sound like love at all!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Oh, that's sad. Doesn't sound like love at all!

It’s not scriptural either.

Jesus says He wishes that all should be saved.

It really gets interesting when they try to redefine “all” as ‘some’.

Then they will start talking about how Jesus did not die for the sins of “all” the world, but for only the saved.

 

[dad]

What does man deserve?

Who cares? Jesus gives heaven.

 

[dad]

Can you chose to believe something that you think is a lie?

Yes. Before we get saved, if we really loved some lie, and rejected Jesus, I think there is a danger we could sink into it.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Oh, that's sad. Doesn't sound like love at all!

Christ on the cross doesn't look like the love of God on display to the outsider either, it appears barbaric and horrific, what kind of love would do such a thing?

 

[dad]

Freedom to choose is altogether different than the assumption of libertarian free will. I'd quote from WCF and LBCF but I see how futile it is.



The real munsters know the God of the Bible but reject Him and suppress what they know even while forming a mental idol suitable to their liking and teach others to worship their mental idol. Man is so inescapably religious in nature...it is how God created us to be.

Why put religious labels on the wonderful ability to chose that God endowed man with? As for your real munster rant...sorry, that sounds like gibberish.

 

[dad]

What makes you think Calvinists reject that man has free will, we don't deny that good works follow salvation either. The event in the persons life is justification, the time of decision, your actual conversion when you are born again, receive the Holy Spirit is a once and for all act of God. It's not that free will and good works don't exist, they are just corrupted beyond repair, in short they are irrelevant. Anything that you do, in thought, word or deed involved in your salvation is a work of God. Paul never emphases that you chose Christ, but that the believer is chose by God. Even your faith is a gift of God, by grace you are saved apart from works. Surly you remember that, the gospel.

Paul pleaded with people to choose Jesus. He did time for so doing. Since Jesus made it clear we need to choose life and come to Him, our freedom to choose to do so or to reject Him is held up as the basis of our eternal future...hardly irrelevant.

So here is a question for Calvies...are people doomed to hell regardless of whatever (in your mind irrelevant) choices they make, yes or no?

 

[dad]

Which Netflix series did you get that from

Pre destiny means that people are locked into their fate regardless of choice. Focus.

 

[dad]

Do you believe we are children of wrath under the curse before our conversion?

If we choose not to get converted, yes. Until we make the choice and then we are children of God!

 

[dad]

The only rebuttal you gave is “no it does not say that” when in fact Paul is clear we are either in bondage to sin or bondage to righteousness.

Only UNTIL we choose.

And we can only be freed of our sin and wrath against us by and through the righteousness of Christ Jesus.

In other words, the cross. Of course.