Did God predestine the Fall?

[dad]

Okay, I tried and you have now definitely refused to answer. So be it.

If someone asks loaded questions and do not get the answer they hoped for...so be it.

 

[dad]

No, that’s not it.

Thanks for your opinion..no idea what you are talking about, but thanks..

 

[dad]

That would be Foreknowledge. Please address that the events of Christ’s arrest, conviction and death were predetermined.

To a point. Did God plan to cut of the ear of the guy coming to arrest Him? Not sure. The general events were planned. He knew what people would do. That is not predestination.

 

[dad]

No my continuing point has been we all make choices in accordance with our bonded will..

No such thing a bonded will! Not before we make the choice to receive Jesus or reject Him. We have free choice.

 

[dad]

It is still escaping your comments that we do in fact make our own decisions but it is colored by the bondage of the will.

If we are free to chose Jesus and eternal life, that is not bondage.

 

[redleghunter]

To a point. Did God plan to cut of the ear of the guy coming to arrest Him? Not sure. The general events were planned. He knew what people would do. That is not predestination.

Your view is people have a more complete plan going into their mundane day than God does eternally?

 

[redleghunter]

No such thing a bonded will! Not before we make the choice to receive Jesus or reject Him. We have free choice.

Dude you really need to read Romans.

 

[redleghunter]

If we are free to chose Jesus and eternal life, that is not bondage.

Please read Romans 6 before making such comments.

 

[Hammster]

If someone asks loaded questions and do not get the answer they hoped for...so be it.

You won’t admit that man doesn’t deserve salvation. That’s strange.

 

[Hammster]

Thanks for your opinion..no idea what you are talking about, but thanks..

I know you don’t.

 

[Hammster]

Please read Romans 6 before making such comments.

Exactly. The fact that people deny having a nature that deserves wrath, even though scripture specifically teaches it, is mind boggling.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

No such thing a bonded will! Not before we make the choice to receive Jesus or reject Him. We have free choice.

Genesis 6:5-8,11-13 - Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually..... The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

Genesis 8:19 - Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Job 15:14-16 - What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous? If God puts not trust in His saints, and the heavens are not pure in His sight, how much less man, who is abominable and filthy, who drinks iniquity like water!

Psalm 14:1-3 - The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.

Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:1-5 - Do you indeed speak righteousness, you silent ones? Do you judge uprightly, you sons of men? No, in heart you work wickedness; you weigh out the violence of your hands in the earth. The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Psalm 143:2 - Do not enter into judgment with your servant, for in Your sight no one living is righteous.

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?

John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 5: 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

The Doctrine of Original Sin in the Early Church "Fathers"

“Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; that ‘we are born sinners;’ and that we are entirely flesh, and no good thing dwells in us; he asserts the weakness and disability of men either to understand or perform spiritual things, and denies that man, by the natural sharpness of his wit, can attain to the knowledge of divine things, or by any innate power in him save himself, and procure eternal life,” (Epist. ad Zenam, p. 506.). Justin Martyr A.D. 150

“Having sometime before convinced us to of the impossibilityof our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior, who is able to save that which otherwise were impossible to be saved,” (Epist. ad Diognet. p. 500.). Justin Martyr A.D. 150

“Satan is “the angel of wickedness, the artificer of every error, the interpolator of every age; by whom man from the beginning being circumvented, so as to transgress the commands of God, was therefore delivered unto death, hence he has also made the whole kind, or all mankind, which springs from his seed, infected, partaker of his damnation,” (Tertullian. de Testimon. Animae, c. 3, p. 82.).Tertullian A.D. 200

“In Adam,56 as saith the word, all die, and are condemned in the likeness of Adam’s transgression, which the divine word says not so much of some one, as of all mankind—for the curse of Adam is common to all,” (Contr. Cels. 1. 4, p. 191.). Origenus A.D. 230

“Who will boast that he has a pure heart before God? No, not an infant, though but of one day, the original and law of sin remaining in us,” (Euarr. in Psal. 58 p. 392.). Hilarius A.D. 363

A Treatise on the Grace of Christ, and On Original Sin by Aurelius Augustin, Bishop of Hippo Book II Chapter 50

“It is not true that the doctrine of original sin does not appear in the works of the pre-Augustinian Fathers. On the contrary, their testimony is found in special works on the subject. Nor can it be said, as Harnack maintains, that St. Augustine himself acknowledges the absence of this doctrine in the writings of the Fathers. St. Augustine invokes the testimony of eleven Fathers, Greek as well as Latin (Contra Jul., II, x, 33). Baseless also is the assertion that before St. Augustine this doctrine was unknown to the Jews and to the Christians; as we have already shown, it was taught by St. Paul.” NEW ADVENT CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

The Canons of the Council of Orange (529 AD)

CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19).

CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

The Augsburg Confession (1530)

Article II: Of Original Sin.

“Also they teach that since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without trust in God, and with concupiscence; and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again through Baptism and the Holy Ghost.

They Condemn the Pelagians and others who deny that original depravity is sin, and who, to obscure the glory of Christ's merit and benefits, argue that man can be justified before God by his own strength and reason.”

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Yes™

 

[redleghunter]

Exactly. The fact that people deny having a nature that deserves wrath, even though scripture specifically teaches it, is mind boggling.

It’s why approaching theology systematically is so important

 

[YesMe]

This is a hard question but I will try to answer.

First of all, we are His creation, we are separate from God, there's only one way to be one with God and that's trough Jesus Christ.We can all agree that the creation is not the Creator so this leaves open the chance for the creation to go against the creator, but for such thing to happen, for free will to be possible, the Creator had to hide His glory from His creation, think about Adam and Eve, God was not with them when they sinned, do you think that they could have sinned in God's presence? No, there's was only one way for them to exercise their free will and for this to happen, God had to hide His glory from them.I suppose the same thing happened with Satan and all the fallen angels, God's glory was hidden so that they may choose for themselves.Now, what we know about Satan? He was the most perfect and the most great angel ever created by God, this is the very reason He was the first one who turned his face from God.Satan is considered the God of our world, in fact, he is the "closest in power and perfection" after to God, which of course is God.Satan used Adam and Eve's innocence against them and when they sinned, they also turned their face from God, but God was able to forgive them... He expected only these two words: "Forgive us."; but no, instead, they blamed God... Of course, God foreseen everything, He ordained everything, I think this was the only way for free will to come into existence, this is the only way for people to truly love God and not be just some puppets.When you love God you love the truth, it's not the same love we have in our world, is not like loving a man or a woman, no, not at all, it's about loving the truth, what is good, what is right... that's what it means to love God.

This is my view..

 

[redleghunter]

“Having sometime before convinced us to of the impossibilityof our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior, who is able to save that which otherwise were impossible to be saved,” (Epist. ad Diognet. p. 500.). Justin Martyr A.D. 150

Long before Augustine

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Long before Augustine

Yep.

"St. Augustine invokes the testimony of eleven Fathers, Greek as well as Latin (Contra Jul., II, x, 33)."

 

[mark kennedy]

No such thing a bonded will! Not before we make the choice to receive Jesus or reject Him. We have free choice.

I remember you, a lot of similar arguments in the Origins debate. What we choose is insignificant to God choosing us. What did you choose when you were saved exactly; revelation, repentance, justification, sanctification, the new nature that results in new birth, all come from God. God predestined that all who would be righteous would be the righteousness of God in Christ, there was never a plan B. I'm hearing a lot about what you do, the freedom of will, the choice the individual makes, but nothing about God's foreknowledge and predestination. That's not how Paul described salvation, why would we?

 

[dad]

Your view is people have a more complete plan going into their mundane day than God does eternally?

The freedom to chose it not mundane. Being locked into some bizzaro world pre destined situation where billions were doomed to hell before they were born is not mundane but monstrous.

 

[dad]

It is still escaping your comments that we do in fact make our own decisions but it is colored by the bondage of the will.

Yes, totally escaping my thoughts. People are free, not locked in.