Did God predestine the Fall?

[Serving Zion]

Well, I wanted originally to know if all Calvinists believe God was responsible for the Fall,

Did that get answered? .. I'd like to know what the answer is to that question ..

but now I am just refuting the ideas.

That seems like a good thing to exit quickly!

 

[redleghunter]

I like Fr. Lawrence's explanation so I will show it:
This understanding of proginosko also informs St. Paul’s meaning in Romans 8:29, where after saying that God causes everything to work together to help us in our salvation (v. 28) he writes, that those “whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He might be the first-born among many brethren”. The word translated “predestined” is the Greek proorizo/ προοριζω, literally to pre-appoint, orizo meaning “to appoint, to order, to designate”. The word orizo is used of a prophet ordering a meal (in Didache 11:9), and of God appointing Jesus Christ to be the Saviour (in Acts 17:31), and of Him designating Jesus as the Son of God by raising Him from the dead (in Romans 1:4). The word proorizo therefore means that God pre-appointed those whom He foreknew would believe in Jesus to be conformed to Christ’s image. The emphasis in not on individual’s choice for or against Christ, but on corporate destiny; it does not answer the question, “Who gets saved and how?”, but rather, “What is God planning to do for those whom He foreknew would believe?” The answer: their destiny is to be conformed to the image of Christ, so that all that Christ is by nature He shares with them by grace. Thus Christ is but the first-born of many brethren; all of God’s people are pre-appointed to be like Jesus.

Some solid points in the above. However, corporate election in Romans 8 is untenable for the following reasons. First there is absolutely no indication foreknowledge is operative to us choosing God. That is reading into the text what is not evident. Perhaps you have some supporting evidence for his leap to this conclusion? Verse 28 clearly indicates those who are called according to God's purpose.

The good father is taking some liberty here with the text.

Secondly, the corporate ekkelsia is not used in the text. To assume so is to apply eisegesis to the context of the leading passages which address individuals who are told "the Spirit testifies with our spirit we are Children of God." (Romans 8:16)

And then confirmed here:

30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Once again confirming individuals and not corporate.

I did notice you snuck in there:
"to help us in our salvation (v. 28)"
As if we had anything to give in the first place and also refuted by the language in verse 30 and following.

Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 1:4-5. Paul begins his doxology for God’s work in Christ by blessing Him because He has given us every spiritual blessing through our union with Christ in the heavenlies (v. 1). Unlike the rest of the world, Christians enjoyed heavenly and transcendent blessedness through their incorporation into Christ. This, St. Paul goes on to say, is the outworking of God’s eternal plan, for “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him”. In Christ and through our union with Him God “predestined us (Greek proorizo) to adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself” (v. 4-5). Note: the content of this predestination and pre-appointing is not our inclusion or exclusion in salvation, but what such a salvation consists of— namely, being “holy and blameless before Him”, our “adoption to sonship”. As God’s sons, we are thus brothers of Christ, and He is therefore “the first among many brethren”.

This again would be fine but does not preclude the very fact Paul says the elect are predestined according to God's purpose and then when hearing and believing the Gospel are sealed.

In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Once again demonstrating a Sovereign act of God according to His will and purpose. The text does not support human decision driving the election of individuals and once again corporate election is not supported by the text.

If foreknowledge of our choosing drives the predestination then Paul has it completely backwards in Ephesians 1. The above quoted in blue shows he had ordo salutis just right and logically communicated.

 

[redleghunter]

Did that get answered? .. I'd like to know what the answer is to that question ..

I'm still wondering if the next OP will be "Did God predestine the terrible ending to Avengers Infinity War?"

 

[Hammster]

No. We can't save ourselves.

Still not answering. Now I think you’re just deflecting.

 

[Hammster]

He didn't create robots.

Look everyone!!! A straw man!!!!

 

[Hammster]

No, but it would go against his character of a God who loves mankind.

Why? Does His character not hate sin?

 

[Hammster]

Of course they did. God knew Judas would dip the sop with Him, you thought that meant that He possessed Judas and practiced mind control to make him do it!!? Ha. No. It was probably more like having seen the future.

So God learns and then runs with it?

 

[bling]

As I have pointed out. This remains your own teaching, not Bible teaching!


That being said. God is the God of living but not the God of the dead. If you want the dead to be saved legitimately, Jesus would have to be crucified twice (this won't happen, that's why God is not the God of the dead). If on the other hand, you would like the dead to be saved illegitimately, it only means that God is not a just God to fail to stick to His own Law and covenants. If so, God's realm is not a lawful realm.

God isn't a Shepherd who loves both the sheep and wolves alike, simply because they cant' co-exist!

God isn't one who doesn't distinguish the weeds from the wheat. He only keeps the wheat by burning the weeds.

This is the Bible teaching! Trying your best to twist them in the name of love won't help. Emphasizing that you have more love than what God says who He is remains just another form of pride. While the underlying message is that "if God is who He said that He is then He won't be your God". There's where your faith stands!

John says: “God is Love”, so would that mean God’s Love is the greatest?

The fact God is Love would that mean God is the epitome of Love?

We are to Love and do good to our enemies, so is God the best example of that?

We are told to hate our family, yet we are also told to Love our family, so in Deity’s definition of hate and love can you hate and Love the same person at the same time?

Is Godly type Love unconditional?

When Saul/Paul was murdering Christians, could he not be described as a wolf or weed?

Did God still Love Saul/Paul when he was being a wolf like being?

Do all mature adults start out before conversion: sinners, weeds, wolves, enemies of God and deserving of nothing good?

Is there a reason for God to Love one sinner over another sinner prior to conversion of one and not the other?

What would you think of a rescuer who could just as easily and safely save everyone in the burning building, but only saved a few?

God the rescuer is willing and wanting to save everyone out of His Love, but will not force you to accept his Love like a bride at a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. That would not be “loving” on God’s part and the Love you received would not be Godly type Love since it was not your choice to accept that charity.

 

[JM]

For those who believe in God predestine events, was the Fall one of them?

Yes.

God ordains all things.

At the very least God created Adam and Eve knowing they would fall and plunge humanity into sin. You cannot escape the fact that God created people knowing they would end up in Hell. If you say, 'God didn't know' then you can't be talking about the God of the Bible. If you say God 'learns' then God is not all knowing...again, you are not talking about the God of the Bible.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[dad]

I'll boil it down. The arrest, torture of Jesus Christ....was This God's predetermined plan?

If a predetermined plan then what will was exercised by those involved?

I don't think we can define how God 'pre determines' things. Could He have used another colt of a donkey if the guy He got it from was unsuitable? Yes. Could God have still been arrested if one of the guards had a flu that day and was replaced? Yes. But there would still be a colt, and an arrest...etc. If you are insinuating that all parties were born with no choice, no way.

 

[dad]

Still not answering. Now I think you’re just deflecting.

Sometimes the issue is not clear. Maybe try more cohesion than the one liner tactic.

 

[dad]

So God learns and then runs with it?

I would think in that instance it was mostly John that learned who the rat was. Jesus knew Judas would be the traitor. That does not mean Jesus locked Judas in a barn and water boarded him till he agreed to betray Him!

 

[Hammster]

Sometimes the issue is not clear. Maybe try more cohesion than the one liner tactic.

I’ll try one last time. Does man deserve to be saved? Why or why not?

 

[Hammster]

I would think in that instance it was mostly John that learned who the rat was. Jesus knew Judas would be the traitor. That does not mean Jesus locked Judas in a barn and water boarded him till he agreed to betray Him!

How did Jesus know? Judas could have changed his mind at any moment, right?

 

[fhansen]

For those who believe in God predestine events, was the Fall one of them?

God foreknew the Fall, but did not predestine it, deeming it worthy to create, for His good ultimate purposes, in spite of that fact. He could not have predestined evil, and all the atrocious results that stemmed from that first evil of disobedience. Adam had free will, and was given sufficient knowledge to exercise that will properly. He chose to abuse it instead. IOW, God is not a liar; when He commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, He did not want Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit.

 

[fhansen]

I’ll try one last time. Does man deserve to be saved? Why or why not?

Joe, the average decent guy/next door neighbor of no professed faith, deserves eternal torment? And you would assent and support that? Why?

 

[Hammster]

God foreknew the Fall, but did not predestine it, deeming it worthy to create, for His good purposes, in spite of that fact. He could not have predestination evil, or and all the atrocious results of that first evil of disobedience. Adam had free will, and was given sufficient knowledge to exercise that will properly. He chose to abuse it instead. IOW, God is not a liar; when He commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, He did not want Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit.

Was the cross an evil act?

 

[Hammster]

Joe, the average decent guy/next door neighbor of no professed faith, deserves eternal torment? And you would assent and support that? Why?

How does that answer my question. Looks more like a deflection to me.

 

[fhansen]

Was the cross an evil act?

By man, yes, perpetrated against God.

 

[Hammster]

By man, yes, perpetrated against God.

Did God plan it?