Did God Indirectly Cause Job To Suffer, Be Sick, And Be In Poverty?

[SavedByGrace3]

From a human reasoning, it is too many holes. How could a human mind comprehend? .

This is the final gasp for air for every mere theist argument:

"We do not understand..."

Hence you expect us to refute our clear and logical arguments in favor of what you yourself proclaim to be ignorance????

Since when is ignorance and a lack of knowledge a virtue?
What do you expect us to do? Put out heads in the sand and join in with the mere theist chants?

"God is in control of everything"
"We do not understand anything"
"Ignorance is bliss and virtue"
"Jesus failed to show us the Father"
"head in the sand... head in the sand"

For a lack of knowledge the people perish.

Think I will go with knowledge.

 

[Tamara224]

Only a fool claims to know everything.

 

[Strong in Him]

This is the final gasp for air for every mere theist argument:

"We do not understand..."

Hence you expect us to refute our clear and logical arguments in favor of what you yourself proclaim to be ignorance????

Since when is ignorance and a lack of knowledge a virtue?
What do you expect us to do? Put out heads in the sand and join in with the mere theist chants?

"God is in control of everything"

If the GOD who created all things is not in control of all things, who is?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Except Luke 20:31;
"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat."

This theory may be "full of holes" but so is the alternative - that Satan went ahead and did it without God knowing or noticing.

This actually further proves the point. IF Jesus had not prayed for Peter, what would have happened? If God was going to prevent the sifting, then why would Jesus have to pray? If God was going to allow the sifting... then why would prayer be needed?

This means that the devil sometimes gets the better of God; there are times when he has more power.

This is only because you view God and satan as equals and at odds with each other. They are not in a contest, and nowhere do we see satan trying to get around God or God trying to keep up with satan's mischeif. Satan does pretty much anything he wants just like we do.

So God isn't ALL mighty. He created the universe and the devil - who was an angel before he fell - but somehow his creation has got to be more powerful than he is.

He can interniene if He wants to, and sometimes He does. But if you are saying that EVERYTHING that happens is a direct result of God's will and purpose, you are opening up a can of worms you are not going to want of feast on.

I'd rather follow and worship a God who knows everything that goes on and has control over what happens, even if things happen that I don't like or understand, than a god who sometimes takes his eye off the ball and lets someone else temporarily control his world.

What we would "rather get to know" is a meaningless argument. What we would rather or not rather has no bearing on what actually is.
Ignorance is not a virtue... and ascribing evil to God is not glory.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Only a fool claims to know everything.

Only a bigger fool ignores truth in favor of doctrinalized ignorance.

 

[JimfromOhio]

This is the final gasp for air for every mere theist argument:

"We do not understand..."

Hence you expect us to refute our clear and logical arguments in favor of what you yourself proclaim to be ignorance????

Since when is ignorance and a lack of knowledge a virtue?
What do you expect us to do? Put out heads in the sand and join in with the mere theist chants?

"God is in control of everything"
"We do not understand anything"
"Ignorance is bliss and virtue"
"Jesus failed to show us the Father"
"head in the sand... head in the sand"

For a lack of knowledge the people perish.

Think I will go with knowledge.

After Job got rebuked from God for listening to his friends. Job gets the message in chapter 42. "And Job answered the Lord and said, O, I see, I get it, You can do everything and no thought can be withheld from You and who's ever going to hide counsel without knowledge, therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, things too wonderful for me which I knew not." Job is saying: "God, I understand, You're God, You're sovereign, You can do anything. You know everything. You have all the privileges. I'm a fool for even opening my mouth, I apologize. I've been talking about things far beyond my understanding which I knew not. Too awesome for me to understand. "

Isaiah have said similar:
Isaiah 64:3
For when you did awesome things that we did not expect, you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.

Isaiah 55:9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Job 42:7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. and in verse 8 "You have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has."

You can have GREAT knowledge but if you don't have spiritual wisdom from the Word of God, your knowledge is worthless. Studying the scriptures requires the Holy Spirit which is inward, not outward. It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Proverbs 19:2 Titus 1:1-2 The knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God. Proverbs 2:10 For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out. Proverbs 23:12 Apply your heart to instruction and your ears to words of knowledge.

I will stick with the knowledge of the Word of God through the Holy Spirit rather than human reasoning of knowledge. Each of us can always trust the Holy Spirit in our lives and experiences, but we have to be careful no to trust our human reasoning and our fleshly conclusions based on visible activities. There is a great concern about people who talks too much about our relationship with faith and not enough about our relationship with Jesus. There are Christians whose experience does not follow a true inner longing to be more like Jesus.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Only a bigger fool ignores truth in favor of doctrinalized ignorance.

A Christian may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant at the same time.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If the GOD who created all things is not in control of all things, who is?

All things?

Many beings.

Who offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world?

Who is tapping at the keys of your computer?

Only mere theism is obsessed with this concept of "control" and seek to subvert the gospel and our revelation of the Father with it.

Now that Jesus died for us and we were raised from the dead with Him, and now that He is at the right hand of the Father... I know who is the Lord of Lords. But not all things are under His feet. If they are not under His feet.... whose feet are they under?

 

[Strong in Him]

This actually further proves the point. IF Jesus had not prayed for Peter, what would have happened? If God was going to prevent the sifting, then why would Jesus have to pray? If God was going to allow the sifting... then why would prayer be needed?

But if Satan does not have to ask God for permission to do anything, why did Jesus say that he had? Why not leave out that bit and say "Simon I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"?

 

[JimfromOhio]

All things?

Many beings.

Who offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world?

Who is tapping at the keys of your computer?

Only mere theism is obsessed with this concept of "control" and seek to subvert the gospel and our revelation of the Father with it.

Now that Jesus died for us and we were raised from the dead with Him, and now that He is at the right hand of the Father... I know who is the Lord of Lords. But not all things are under His feet. If they are not under His feet.... whose feet are they under?

We were raised from the dead already? If you meant spiritually, yes we have. If you meant physically, that has not happened yet.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

A Christian may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant at the same time.

Or they may be ignorant altogether.

See how easy it is to throw out meaningless bombast? Any schoolyard child can do it. You only satisfy your own egotistic drives when you do this.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Looks like they can't really prove their point. They are gasping for air because their doctrines are in jeopardy because they contradicts the Word of God.

Can anyone read and discern all of these threads? I would ask all of us to pick up the Bible and read. Pray and ask for guidance to what teachings we are to follow. People have shown an attitude that doctrines are more important than truth. Jesus in Matthew 15:1-3. Jesus said to the Pharisees, “Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition (doctrine)?” I don't know in a flesh point of view whether the doctrines I follow are 100% true unless I allow the Holy Spirit to convict my heart to follow certain doctrines. I am 47 years old, I have learned so much about doctrines since I was a teen. Christians are divided on doctrine issues (teaching issues). This have been going on since the New Testament days (Read First Corinthians 9:11-17). Doctrines (teachings) that impacted many Christian lives and they are using doctrines more than they are using Holy Spirit to guide their Christian walk. Don't get me wrong, doctrines are important and Christians might argue for those issues. But, how far? What shall we unite with and from what shall we separate?

Truth is, the Holy Spirit that can grasp our inner being only when we submit completely which will allow the Holy Spirit teach us, lead us mysterious and divine where we ought to go. "Teach me your way, O LORD, and I will walk in your truth; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name." — Psalm 86:11. The Holy Spirit that leads my thoughts and shapes my character. Our true moral and spiritual state is revealed by the Spirit through prayer and studying the Word. Eternally, we are "eternal (spiritual) members" in the universal church of Jesus Christ, based solely on His merit and grace. If we are a Christ-follower, then we are already a member. This is eternal and unchanging (I Corinthians 12:12-13; Ephesians 2:13-22; 4:3-6; Colossians 1:13-22). Everyone who is saved is a member of God's Kingdom.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Or they may be ignorant altogether.

See how easy it is to throw out meaningless bombast? Any schoolyard child can do it. You only satisfy your own egotistic drives when you do this.

Humility is to get rid of pride by submitting to the greatest cost of discipleship is to the old nature, ego, self. Pride is known for trying to be "right".

Pride is located in our hearts which is the core, are seated deep within our minds where they pollutes our emotions (desires), the intellect (imaginations) and the will (purposes). It is important to understand that our hearts are the state of our "flesh". Our flesh search for pleasure, pride, passions and selfish motives. Our hearts are like a garden with beautiful flowers and plants. As with all gardens, the hearts must be kept free from weeds and insects. In Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." (NLT).

If you want to prove that your doctrines are true, then explain with biblical verses rather than your theories and reasons.

 

[Strong in Him]

All things?

Many beings.

Who offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world?

Who is tapping at the keys of your computer?

Only mere theism is obsessed with this concept of "control" and seek to subvert the gospel and our revelation of the Father with it.

Now that Jesus died for us and we were raised from the dead with Him, and now that He is at the right hand of the Father... I know who is the Lord of Lords. But not all things are under His feet. If they are not under His feet.... whose feet are they under?

Satan showed Jesus the kingdoms of the world. God is in control, because he allows Satan to exist and have limited power.

I am tapping at the keys of my computer. God is in control because he chose and allows me to have free will.

Jesus called the devil "the prince of this world". He is only a prince and only of this world. God is King, and of the universe.

We do not see all things under God's feet, because some people - to whom God gave free will - do not choose to be under his feet. And God allows it to be so for the present. God could have sent Jesus back to earth in 1900. If he'd done so, the first and second world wars would have been prevented, so would many of the troubles in Northern Ireland, and Iraq. But you and I wouldn't be here either.

God controls when the world will end, and how much power the devil has. God leaves some people to the consequences of their sin. THEY have chosen to sin, he chose to give them the freewill to disobey him, rather than making us all puppets, incapable of anything but worship and obedience.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

But if Satan does not have to ask God for permission to do anything, why did Jesus say that he had? Why not leave out that bit and say "Simon I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"?

Perhaps it is because of the protection that all the apostles had due to their association with Jesus. There are many verses in the NT where Jesus refers to them as a special group that God gave Him.
Perhaps due to that satan would have to ask permission to get TO THEM.
We do not see similar speech with regards to anyone esle in the gospels. All the other people were pretty much in satan's hands.
Even in the epistles we see that we have authority to turn over one of our own to satan. No such language is made toward those who are not saved. In fact 1 John 5 says the evil one does not touch us:

1 John 5:18
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Tamara224]

Only a bigger fool ignores truth in favor of doctrinalized ignorance.

Ain't that the truth...

 

[franky67]

Job 2:3

"..................Although you incited me against him to ruin him without cause."

I'm anxiously waiting for someone to answer this one.

Hint, "Me" is God
"you" is satan
"him" is Job

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Your statements just beg the question.
Of course God is "allowing" these things. Look around... God is allowing EVERYTHING. That is the point.
YES... YOU have control of your keyboard becaue GOD gave you free will to to do that.
Yes... satan had control over all the kingdoms of the world they were given to him.
Yes satan had control over the life of Job as soon as the hedge was down... otherwise what good is a hedge to start with?
You have proven my point exactly. God relinquisted control. If He relinquisted control... He no longer has it regardless of how you want to frame up the words. Of course He may take it back at any time He wants and personally control what is happening... nobody denies that. But in the meantime.. satan could do whatever he wanted to Job because satan had free will and Job had no hedge. And YES God did intervien in those events and moved, not to grant permission, but to do what God does and extend unmerited favor in the form of protection for Job. Otherwise satan could have killed him. Why extend protection over Job if satan needed permission? It is because the permission was standing for any free moral agent to do what they want... including satan.

Satan showed Jesus the kingdoms of the world. God is in control, because he allows Satan to exist and have limited power.

I am tapping at the keys of my computer. God is in control because he chose and allows me to have free will.

Jesus called the devil "the prince of this world". He is only a prince and only of this world. God is King, and of the universe.

We do not see all things under God's feet, because some people - to whom God gave free will - do not choose to be under his feet. And God allows it to be so for the present. God could have sent Jesus back to earth in 1900. If he'd done so, the first and second world wars would have been prevented, so would many of the troubles in Northern Ireland, and Iraq. But you and I wouldn't be here either.

God controls when the world will end, and how much power the devil has. God leaves some people to the consequences of their sin. THEY have chosen to sin, he chose to give them the freewill to disobey him, rather than making us all puppets, incapable of anything but worship and obedience.

 

[Trish1947]

Job 2:3

"..................Although you incited me against him to ruin him without cause."

I'm anxiously waiting for someone to answer this one.

Hint, "Me" is God
"you" is satan
"him" is Job

This was what Satan wanted God to do. To move His own hand against Job. This was a taunt from Satan for God to be the one to do it. It was Satan that did it.

Can God be tempted? Or influenced by Satan?

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

[stone]

wow, i can't believe this thread is still on top?!

You know, Trish you've gone right back to the beginning.

Job 1:6-12 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.