Did God die upon the Cross?

[Clare73]

But but but the wages of sin is death, not torture.

But but but. . .the wages of your own sin may require only death, but the wages of the whole church's sin may require more.

So Good Friday was not Christ's atoning work for sin (Ro 3:25)?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Oh but why would a loving God let his one and only son be tortured ? Why not just a quick painless death ?

Valid question. If all that was required was the death of the Messiah, then why not that quick thrust of a sword?
The power of the new life is in the resurrection. We are born again by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead where we were raised up together with Him into newness of life.
The reason for the cross and the torture was so that we could be redeemed from the curse of the law. Listed in the OT are the curses that are associated with sins. These curses include all sickness, poverty, failures in life, and other things that equate to "just recompense of reward." For instance, "by his stripes we were healed."
So there is a temporal side of redemption, and a spiritual side. The death and resurrection dealt with the spiritual side. The physical torture dealt with the physical side.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

From Holy Thursday in the Orthodox church
Today is suspended on a tree He who suspended the earth upon the waters.
The King of the angels is decked with a crown of thorns.
He who wraps the heavens in clouds is wrapped in the purple of mockery.
He who freed Adam in the Jordan is slapped on the face.
The Bridegroom of the Church is affixed to the Cross with nails.
The Son of the Virgin is pierced by a spear.
We worship Thy passion, O Christ.
We worship Thy passion, O Christ.
We worship Thy passion, O Christ.
Show us also Thy glorious resurrection.

Paschal Sermon of St. John Chrysostom
Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

 

[Andrewn]

The reason for the cross and the torture was so that we could be redeemed from the curse of the law.

1) Does the law apply to Gentiles? 2) Does the Bible say that the curse of the law cannot be removed without torturing an innocent person on a cross?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

1) Does the law apply to Gentiles? 2) Does the Bible say that the curse of the law cannot be removed without torturing an innocent person on a cross?

1) Does the law apply to Gentiles?

I believe it does apply to all, rather the effect of the law. For instance:

Galatians 6:7-8 KJV
7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

and

Hebrews 2:2 KJV
2. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

and some thoughts here:

Romans 2:1-29 KJV
1. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17. Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18. And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19. And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20. An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22. Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23. Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24. For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27. And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

2) Does the Bible say that the curse of the law cannot be removed without torturing an innocent person on a cross?

I think Hebrews 9 covers this.

Hebrews 9:22 KJV
22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Perhaps this refers to Lev 17:11

Leviticus 17:11 KJV
11. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Note that the following was written to both Jews and Gentiles.

Galatians 3:13 KJV
13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,
being made a curse for us: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Peace

 

[Andrewn]

12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

This statement (and others in Rom 2:1-29) shows that before Christ, there were two distinct pathways for salvation: one apart from the law for the Gentiles and the second by the law for the Jews. IOW, the law does not apply to the Gentiles.

Galatians 3:13 KJV 13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,

The question is, "Who does 'us / ἡμᾶς' refer to?" Is it only the Jews under the law, or are they Jews and Gentiles?

Here is what Meyer's Commentary says:

ἡμᾶς] applies to the Jews; for these were under the curse of the law[126] mentioned in Galatians 3:10, and by faith in Christ made, themselves partakers of the redemption from that curse accomplished by Him, as Paul had himself experienced. Others have understood it as the Jews and Gentiles (Gomarus, Pareus, Estius, Flatt, Winer, Matthies). But against this view it may be urged, that the Gentiles were not under the curse of the Mosaic law (Romans 2:12); that a reference to the natural law as well (Romans 2:14-15) is quite foreign to the context (in opposition to Flatt); that the law, even if it had not been done away by Christ, would yet never have related to the Gentiles (in opposition to Winer), because it was the partition-wall between Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2:14 f.); and lastly, that afterwards in Galatians 3:14 εἰς τὰ ἔθνη is placed in contrast to the ἡμᾶς,


So, according to Meyer's and others, "us" refers to the Jews only. Some commentators understand it as a reference to both Jews and Gentiles, but then we would have to assume that the Gentiles were under the curse of a law they were unfamiliar with and that Galatians 3, as a whole, is emphatic in denying that Gentiles were subject to!!

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under the curse. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them.”

Who is under the curse of the law? Those who rely on the works of the law. And this cannot be said of the Gentiles except in a prophylactic sense.

 

[Clare73]

This statement (and others in Rom 2:1-29) shows that before Christ, there were two distinct pathways for salvation: one apart from the law for the Gentiles and the second by the law for the Jews. IOW, the law does not apply to the Gentiles.

Ro 2 is to establish the guilt and condemnation of all OT mankind according to God's OT principles for judging at the final judgment:
the Jews will be judged by the law,
those without the law (Gentiles) will be judged by their conscience,
in his demonstration that no one is righteous, that all mankind is unrighteous (Ro 3:9-10) because no one has perfectly complied with either standard.
God has shut up all men in sin, so that all men must rely on his mercy (Ro 11:32).

Paul makes it more than clear that the law was not given to make righteous for salvation (Ro 3:20), for righteousness had always been by faith only (Ge 15:6, Gal 3:11), that this was a misunderstanding of the Jews, for the law was given only to reveal sin (Ro 3:20), not to save.

The question is, "Who does 'us / ἡμᾶς' refer to?" Is it only the Jews under the law, or are they Jews and Gentiles?

Here is what Meyer's Commentary says:

ἡμᾶς] applies to the Jews; for these were under the curse of the law[126] mentioned in Galatians 3:10, and by faith in Christ made, themselves partakers of the redemption from that curse accomplished by Him, as Paul had himself experienced. Others have understood it as the Jews and Gentiles (Gomarus, Pareus, Estius, Flatt, Winer, Matthies). But against this view it may be urged, that the Gentiles were not under the curse of the Mosaic law (Romans 2:12); that a reference to the natural law as well (Romans 2:14-15) is quite foreign to the context (in opposition to Flatt); that the law, even if it had not been done away by Christ, would yet never have related to the Gentiles (in opposition to Winer), because it was the partition-wall between Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2:14 f.); and lastly, that afterwards in Galatians 3:14 εἰς τὰ ἔθνη is placed in contrast to the ἡμᾶς,


So, according to Meyer's and others, "us" refers to the Jews only. Some commentators understand it as a reference to both Jews and Gentiles, but then we would have to assume that the Gentiles were under the curse of a law they were unfamiliar with and that Galatians 3, as a whole, is emphatic in denying that Gentiles were subject to!!

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under the curse. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them.”

Who is under the curse of the law? Those who rely on the works of the law. And this cannot be said of the Gentiles except in a prophylactic sense.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This statement (and others in Rom 2:1-29) shows that before Christ, there were two distinct pathways for salvation: one apart from the law for the Gentiles and the second by the law for the Jews. IOW, the law does not apply to the Gentiles.


The question is, "Who does 'us / ἡμᾶς' refer to?" Is it only the Jews under the law, or are they Jews and Gentiles?

Here is what Meyer's Commentary says:

ἡμᾶς] applies to the Jews; for these were under the curse of the law[126] mentioned in Galatians 3:10, and by faith in Christ made, themselves partakers of the redemption from that curse accomplished by Him, as Paul had himself experienced. Others have understood it as the Jews and Gentiles (Gomarus, Pareus, Estius, Flatt, Winer, Matthies). But against this view it may be urged, that the Gentiles were not under the curse of the Mosaic law (Romans 2:12); that a reference to the natural law as well (Romans 2:14-15) is quite foreign to the context (in opposition to Flatt); that the law, even if it had not been done away by Christ, would yet never have related to the Gentiles (in opposition to Winer), because it was the partition-wall between Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2:14 f.); and lastly, that afterwards in Galatians 3:14 εἰς τὰ ἔθνη is placed in contrast to the ἡμᾶς,


So, according to Meyer's and others, "us" refers to the Jews only. Some commentators understand it as a reference to both Jews and Gentiles, but then we would have to assume that the Gentiles were under the curse of a law they were unfamiliar with and that Galatians 3, as a whole, is emphatic in denying that Gentiles were subject to!!

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under the curse. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them.”

Who is under the curse of the law? Those who rely on the works of the law. And this cannot be said of the Gentiles except in a prophylactic sense.

Thanks for the comment and the time you took to research.
Again and again we see the phrase "to the Jew first, and then the Gentile." I think I will stick with that concept. It is scripture.

 

[dms1972]

I think maybe it could be said that God in the Person of Jesus Christ experienced death. But God didn't cease to exist. Although Jesus really died in his human nature, death could not hold him.

But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip. Acts 2:24 NLT

 

[BurningBush84]

I see it as Christ sharing with humanity all the pains we are subjected to. Some ancient authors speculated that Jesus, being God, could not have had a natural death. Through his passion, He as man becomes that He as God always is.

Heb 2:10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer/champion/leader of their salvation perfect/complete through sufferings. 11 For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

What if they threw Jesus down a volcano hole filled with bright orange lava? His body would have died in less than a minute. Why all the torment and torture ? Wasn't he sweating blood when he prayed that prayer in Luke 22:42??

Surely a loving God wouldn't torture his one and only son like that . Romans 6:23:says the wages of sin is death, not torture.

 

[Clare73]

What if they threw Jesus down a volcano hole filled with bright orange lava? His body would have died in less than a minute. Why all the torment and torture ? Wasn't he sweating blood when he prayed that prayer in Luke 22:42??

Surely a loving God wouldn't torture his one and only son like that . Romans 6:23:says the wages of sin is death, not torture.

And you know this, how?

As surely as a loving God is also just.
It is justice, not the divine "sentiments," which requires the nature of the punishment.

God's justice is not a trivial sidenote of the divine nature, just as love, power and sovereignty are not trivial sidenotes of the divine nature.
But note that love submits to justice, which is God's governing attribute. All must satisfy his justice.
And so he himself provided the satisfaction of his own justice; i.e., his own beloved Son (Ro 3:25, 1 Jn 4:10).

And there you have the magnificent GLORY of our God and Father! . . .who would give his one and only begotten Son for the sake of his adopted sons!

 

[FireDragon76]

Another possibility to consider: God doesn't see death the way human beings typically do.

And you know this, how?

As surely as a loving God is also just.
It is justice, not the divine "sentiments," which requires the nature of the punishment.

God's justice is not a trivial sidenote of the divine nature, just as love, power and sovereignty are not trivial sidenotes of the divine nature.
But note that love submits to justice, which is God's governing attribute. All must satisfy his justice.
And so he himself provided the satisfaction of his own justice; i.e., his own beloved Son (Ro 3:25, 1 Jn 4:10).

And there you have the magnificent GLORY of our God and Father! . . .who would give his one and only begotten Son for the sake of his adopted sons!

I wouldn't place God's justice above God's love. Because the Evangelist says God is love.

 

[Clare73]

Another possibility to consider: God doesn't see death the way human beings typically do.

Humans sees death as the Scripture of God reveals it to be seen.

Human physical death is the departure of the human spirit from the human body.
Human spiritual death is the absence of God's divine eternal life within the human spirit.

I wouldn't place God's justice above God's love. Because the Evangelist says God is love.

God's attributes are equal and in complete agreement, not in any conflict.
Love is in agreement with justice by satisfying necessary requirements of justice; e.g., debts be paid.
Justice is in agreement with love by satisfying necessary requirements of love; e.g., receiving what is owed, what has been earned.

 

[FireDragon76]

Humans sees death as the Scripture of God reveals it to be seen.

Human physical death is the departure of the human spirit from the human body.
Human spiritual death is the absence of God's divine eternal life within the human spirit.

God's attributes are equal and in complete agreement, not in any conflict.
Love is in agreement with justice by satisfying necessary requirements of justice; e.g., debts be paid.
Justice is in agreement with love by satisfying necessary requirements of love; e.g., receiving what is owed, what has been earned.

That is an inadequate definition of love.

 

[Clare73]

That is an inadequate definition of love.

Feel free to provide your own.