Did God create the earth formless?

[Platte]

I have already read them many hundreds of times. I study the meaning of each and every word extensively. I study to see what we can test and verify to be true.

My belief is that each day is half the length of the day before. So day one is 8 billion years, day two is four billion years, day three is two billion years, day four is one billion years, day five is 500 million years and day six is 250 million years.

Then I go to science and ask: When did God create mankind. The Bible and science agree that mankind began 250 million years ago. So my belief agrees with BOTH science and the Bible.

The Bible is written from the perspective of the beginning looking forward. We are looking back. So this is why every day is half the length of the day before according to Gerold Schroeder. Schroeder's interpretation seeks to bridge the gap between scientific understanding and biblical texts, suggesting that they can complement rather than contradict each other.

Gerald Lawrence Schroeder is an American Israeli physicist, author, and lecturer1. He is known for his work in reconciling science and spirituality, often focusing on the relationship between modern scientific understanding and traditional religious beliefs. Schroeder has written several books on this topic, including "Genesis and the Big Bang" and "The Science of God," where he explores how scientific discoveries can complement and enhance religious perspectives.

Changing the Bible to fit your narrative is the same as not believing the Bible. If yiu can change the Bible to what you think it says then anyone can do the same.

Changing the Bible to fit your narrative is the same as not believing the Bible

 

[Diamond72]

If you have scripture that supports a regional flood please reference it

The Bible supports my view. We would not be having this conversation if the Bible did not support my view. I do my research and check these things out before I say anything because I know that people are going to ask all kinds of questions. I have taken four teacher training classes at an accredited Bible college. You are the one who has failed to show that my interpretation of the Bible is not valid and true. My view does not contradict Science the way your view does. My view is 100% in agreement with Science and with the Bible. So I have two witnesses as required by the Bible. The Bible is 100% accurate and true. Which is a miracle. But your understanding of the Bible may not be accurate and true. So I ask you to show me where the Bible falsifies my view.

The scientific method typically requires a testable hypothesis. A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon, formulated based on prior knowledge, observations, and evidence. It must be testable and falsifiable, meaning that it can be supported or refuted through experiments and empirical data.

 

[Diamond72]

Changing the Bible to fit your narrative is the same as not believing the Bible.

People are always guilty of what they accuse others of. I would not have known this about you if you had not told me. I use the evidence God gives us in Science to help me understand the word of God. I do not have an agenda, I do not care where the journey takes me. I just go where God and the evidence takes me.

For years I struggled with the fact that the days in the bible were not the same length according to science. So I was glad when Schroder explained how to deal with that. Gerald Lawrence Schroeder goes back to Nostradamus! So people can not say that modern science is shaping our views and opinions. Schroeder's work often cites ancient commentaries and uses scientific principles to explain biblical events, such as the six days of creation. This method shows that science and faith can complement each other, rather than being in conflict.

Even Nostradamus and Maimonides lived 500 year before Bishop Ussher.

Nostradamus (1503-1566) and Maimonides (1135-1204) both lived long before James Ussher (1581-1656), who is best known for his chronology dating the creation of the world to 4004 BC1. Ussher's work was part of a 17th-century effort to align biblical events with historical timelines.

You may be biting off more than you can chew if you think you know more than these great men of God.

The idea that the "days" in Genesis could represent long periods of time, rather than literal 24-hour days, has been proposed by several early church fathers and scholars. One of the earliest proponents of this view was Josephus, a Jewish historian from the 1st century. He suggested that the "days" of creation could be longer than 24 hours.

Other notable figures who supported this interpretation include:

• Irenaeus (2nd century), bishop of Lyons1
• Origen (3rd century), who rebutted heathen attacks on Christian doctrine
• Basil (4th century)1
• Augustine (5th century), who also considered the days to be longer periods

These early interpretations laid the groundwork for later scholars to explore the idea of long creation days in Genesis.

BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR LONG CREATION DAYS by Hugh Ross, Ph.D. – Evidence for Christianity

evidenceforchristianity.org

 

[Diamond72]

Gerald Lawrence Schroeder

There are many, many commentators, but at the top of the mountain there are three, accepted by all: Rashi (11th century France), who brings the straight understanding of the text, Maimonides (12th century Egypt), who handles the philosophical concepts, and then Nahmanides (13th century Spain), the most important of the Kabbalists.

These ancient commentaries were finalized hundreds or thousands of years ago. So this belief is not a result of trying to adapt itself to modern science.

 

[Platte]

The Bible supports my view. We would not be having this conversation if the Bible did not support my view. I do my research and check these things out before I say anything because I know that people are going to ask all kinds of questions. I have taken four teacher training classes at an accredited Bible college. You are the one who has failed to show that my interpretation of the Bible is not valid and true. My view does not contradict Science the way your view does. My view is 100% in agreement with Science and with the Bible. So I have two witnesses as required by the Bible. The Bible is 100% accurate and true. Which is a miracle. But your understanding of the Bible may not be accurate and true. So I ask you to show me where the Bible falsifies my view.

The scientific method typically requires a testable hypothesis. A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon, formulated based on prior knowledge, observations, and evidence. It must be testable and falsifiable, meaning that it can be supported or refuted through experiments and empirical data.

There is nothing in the Bible that supports any of your views. Changing the Bible does not make the Bible support you.

Changing the Bible to fit your narrative is the same as not believing the Bible.

Keep posting here - I’ll be sure to respond when I see you changing the Bible. I hope you do the same for me.

 

[Platte]

People are always guilty of what they accuse others of. I would not have known this about you if you had not told me. I use the evidence God gives us in Science to help me understand the word of God. I do not have an agenda, I do not care where the journey takes me. I just go where God and the evidence takes me.

For years I struggled with the fact that the days in the bible were not the same length according to science. So I was glad when Schroder explained how to deal with that. Gerald Lawrence Schroeder goes back to Nostradamus! So people can not say that modern science is shaping our views and opinions. Schroeder's work often cites ancient commentaries and uses scientific principles to explain biblical events, such as the six days of creation. This method shows that science and faith can complement each other, rather than being in conflict.

Even Nostradamus and Maimonides lived 500 year before Bishop Ussher.

Nostradamus (1503-1566) and Maimonides (1135-1204) both lived long before James Ussher (1581-1656), who is best known for his chronology dating the creation of the world to 4004 BC1. Ussher's work was part of a 17th-century effort to align biblical events with historical timelines.

You may be biting off more than you can chew if you think you know more than these great men of God.

The idea that the "days" in Genesis could represent long periods of time, rather than literal 24-hour days, has been proposed by several early church fathers and scholars. One of the earliest proponents of this view was Josephus, a Jewish historian from the 1st century. He suggested that the "days" of creation could be longer than 24 hours.

Other notable figures who supported this interpretation include:

• Irenaeus (2nd century), bishop of Lyons1
• Origen (3rd century), who rebutted heathen attacks on Christian doctrine
• Basil (4th century)1
• Augustine (5th century), who also considered the days to be longer periods

These early interpretations laid the groundwork for later scholars to explore the idea of long creation days in Genesis.

BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR LONG CREATION DAYS by Hugh Ross, Ph.D. – Evidence for Christianity

evidenceforchristianity.org

Your approach to changing the Bible because you do not believe the words of Moses or God or any other author of the Bible is the same as not believing the Bible. If I or anyone else changes the Bible I would hope you’d point that out. You’ve established that it’s a common practice throughout history and you’ve employed that same approach into your life. I’d recommend you figure out science based upon what the Bible says. Anyways.

Changing the Bible to fit your narrative is the same as not believing the Bible

 

[Diamond72]

Your approach to changing the Bible because you do not believe the words of Moses or God or any other author of the Bible is the same as not believing the Bible.

You are in violation of the rules on this web site to accuse me of not being a Christian. I should report you but then they will give you points and shut the thread down. Perhaps you are the one that is guilty of what you go around accusing others of. You really need to examine yourself and not accuse others.

 

[David Lamb]

The Bible does NOT say that Noah's flood was a world wide flood. All the evidence shows that Noah's flood was a local flood from our perspective. The word used in the Hebrew is Adamah. This is the land of Eden. The world wide flood took place at the time of Pangea. This is why we find fossils from the ocean at the top of the rocky mountains and the top of the Himalayan mountains.

Although English translations of the bible don't use the word "worldwide" to describe the flood of Noah's time, there are plenty of places in both Testaments that indicate that it did indeed cover the whole earth. Here is one example from the Old Testament, and another from the New:

“So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.” (Ge 7:23 NKJV)

“For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.” (2Pe 3:5-6 NKJV)

 

[David Lamb]

The animals on the ark that we read about in our Bible were domesticated animals. We do not see any reference to the Kangaroo or the Tazar monkey in our Bible.

We don't see any reference to any specific animals that went into the ark, domesticated or not. We are told:

“On the very same day Noah and Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark — they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort. And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which [is] the breath of life.” (Ge 7:13-15 NKJV)

"Every beast", "all cattle," "every creeping thing," "every bird of every sort."

 

[Diamond72]

We don't see any reference to any specific animals that went into the ark, domesticated or not.

We see lots of animals and plants that are mentioned in the Bible. For example, Jesus was the lamb of God and we see Him riding on a donkey. I think that we can be safe to assume that donkeys and lambs were on the ark. I question if Tazar monkeys and kangaroos were on the ark, because we do not find them in the Middle East. So how would they have gotten to the middle east to get saved on Noah's ark?

• This act fulfilled a prophecy from the Old Testament, specifically from Zechariah 9:9, which states: "Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
• By riding on a donkey, Jesus was identifying Himself as the prophesied king and Messiah.

We should look at the facts and what the facts support. Even there are animals native to the United states that we just do not find in the Middle East.

Examples of Challenging Crops:​

• Tropical Fruits: Crops like pineapples, mangoes, and bananas require high humidity and consistent rainfall, which are generally not found in the Middle East.
• Tropical and Rainforest Crops: Certain tropical crops, such as cocoa and coffee, demand specific climate conditions, including high humidity and consistent rainfall, making them unsuitable for the Middle East.
• Water-Intensive Crops: Crops such as rice, which require flooded fields, are challenging to grow due to water scarcity.

All of a sudden people that fight against evolution want to use evolution to explain the diversity of plants and animals in the world after Noah's flood. Because how did they get to the middle east from other continents and back to their place again after the flood? How did they get from Australia to the middle east and them back to austraia after the flood.

I was YEC at one time and tried to defend YEC. But the facts simply did not support what I was trying to do. Then one day I did my research and came to realize there is no conflict between the Bible and Science. They perfectly agree with each other. Even today, the fact that Noah and Adam were real people makes me YEC to some degree.

 

[David Lamb]

We see lots of animals and plants that are mentioned in the Bible. For example, Jesus was the lamb of God and we see Him riding on a donkey. I think that we can be safe to assume that donkeys and lambs were on the ark. I question if Tazar monkeys and kangaroos were on the ark, because we do not find them in the Middle East. So how would they have gotten to the middle east to get saved on Noah's ark?

• This act fulfilled a prophecy from the Old Testament, specifically from Zechariah 9:9, which states: "Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
• By riding on a donkey, Jesus was identifying Himself as the prophesied king and Messiah.

We should look at the facts and what the facts support. Even there are animals native to the United states that we just do not find in the Middle East.

Examples of Challenging Crops:​

• Tropical Fruits: Crops like pineapples, mangoes, and bananas require high humidity and consistent rainfall, which are generally not found in the Middle East.
• Tropical and Rainforest Crops: Certain tropical crops, such as cocoa and coffee, demand specific climate conditions, including high humidity and consistent rainfall, making them unsuitable for the Middle East.
• Water-Intensive Crops: Crops such as rice, which require flooded fields, are challenging to grow due to water scarcity.

All of a sudden people that fight against evolution want to use evolution to explain the diversity of plants and animals in the world after Noah's flood. Because how did they get to the middle east from other continents and back to their place again after the flood? How did they get from Australia to the middle east and them back to austraia after the flood.

I was YEC at one time and tried to defend YEC. But the facts simply did not support what I was trying to do. Then one day I did my research and came to realize there is no conflict between the Bible and Science. They perfectly agree with each other. Even today, the fact that Noah and Adam were real people makes me YEC to some degree.

But we weren't talking about which animals are mentioned in the bible. The topic was particularly the animals that went into the ark. As far as the question of how the animals got to and from the ark is concerned, Genesis implies that God brought them:

“"And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every [sort] into the ark, to keep [them] alive with you; they shall be male and female. "Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.” (Ge 6:19-20 NKJV)

As far as I know, the bible doesn't tell us how the animals got back to where they came from, but to Almighty God this would have posed no problem.

 

[Diamond72]

The topic was particularly the animals that went into the ark

I thought you said everything alive in the world today was on Noah's Ark. Even if we can not explain how they could have gotten there and how they can not survive in the climate and conditions of the Middle East. This is why people talk about Pangea when all life was on one land mass.

Many believe that science and the Bible can coexist harmoniously, each offering valuable insights into different aspects of our existence. This perspective is often referred to as "complementarity", where science and faith address different questions but together provide a fuller understanding of life and the universe.

Key Points:​

1. Different Domains:
   • Science: Deals with the natural world, focusing on how things work through observation, experimentation, and evidence-based reasoning.
   • Faith: Addresses spiritual and moral questions, focusing on the purpose, meaning, and ethical guidelines for life.
2. Historical Examples:
   • Isaac Newton: A devout Christian, Newton saw his scientific work as a way to understand God’s creation.
   • Georges Lemaître: A Catholic priest and physicist, he proposed the Big Bang theory, showing how religious faith and scientific inquiry can coexist.
3. Modern Perspectives:
   • Many scientists and theologians advocate for a dialogue between science and faith, emphasizing that both can coexist without contradiction.
   • Organizations like the BioLogos Foundation work to bridge the gap, promoting the view that science and faith are not at odds but can enrich each other.

Conclusion:​

By embracing the strengths of both science and faith, it’s possible to develop a more comprehensive understanding of existence, where scientific discoveries can complement and even enhance spiritual beliefs.

 

[ForgiveMeGod]

and void.

 

[David Lamb]

I thought you said everything alive in the world today was on Noah's Ark. Even if we can not explain how they could have gotten there and how they can not survive in the climate and conditions of the Middle East. This is why people talk about Pangea when all life was on one land mass.

Many believe that science and the Bible can coexist harmoniously, each offering valuable insights into different aspects of our existence. This perspective is often referred to as "complementarity", where science and faith address different questions but together provide a fuller understanding of life and the universe.

Key Points:​

1. Different Domains:
   • Science: Deals with the natural world, focusing on how things work through observation, experimentation, and evidence-based reasoning.
   • Faith: Addresses spiritual and moral questions, focusing on the purpose, meaning, and ethical guidelines for life.
2. Historical Examples:
   • Isaac Newton: A devout Christian, Newton saw his scientific work as a way to understand God’s creation.
   • Georges Lemaître: A Catholic priest and physicist, he proposed the Big Bang theory, showing how religious faith and scientific inquiry can coexist.
3. Modern Perspectives:
   • Many scientists and theologians advocate for a dialogue between science and faith, emphasizing that both can coexist without contradiction.
   • Organizations like the BioLogos Foundation work to bridge the gap, promoting the view that science and faith are not at odds but can enrich each other.

Conclusion:​

By embracing the strengths of both science and faith, it’s possible to develop a more comprehensive understanding of existence, where scientific discoveries can complement and even enhance spiritual beliefs.

Yes there certainly are scientists who believe the bible, including the flood of Noah's time, and Creation by God, rather than Evolution. Such scientists would agree that science works through observation, experimentation, and evidence-based reasoning. So they would say that Evolution fails on the very first of those, observation. Yes, we can observe variation between members of the same species, but we don't observe one sort of animal changing over time into another sort.

 

[Platte]

Just to clarify to those reading this thread Genesis 1:1-5 is the first day of creation.

Genesis 1:1-5 is a continuous statement (notice the use of the word "And") and represents the first day.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

It doesn't matter if you are YEC, OEC, Dispensationalist, humanistic, scientific, agnostic, atheist, or whatever - this is what the Bible says. There is no pause or any indication by the WRITER to separate the first statement in Genesis 1:1 through to Genesis 1:5 - the WRITER actually ties them all together.

Changing the Bible to fit your narrative is the same as not believing the Bible.

 

[Diamond72]

we can observe variation between members of the same species, but we don't observe one sort of animal changing over time into another sort.

My grandmother told me if you want to make cookies you have to have a pinch of this and a dash of that. I still have the formula or recipe for the wonderful food she used to make. No one can build anything without a blue print or a plan. 50 years ago we actually used blueprints. But we had to have the original to make a blueprint. Blueprints, or detailed plans, have always been essential for constructing buildings, machines, and various other projects. They provide the necessary details and specifications to ensure everything is built correctly and safely.

Beneficial mutations are rare, most are harmful but DNA can correct itself to eliminate harmful mutations. While most mutations can be harmful or neutral, the body's ability to repair DNA is crucial in preventing genetic disorders and maintaining health. Meanwhile, the rare beneficial mutations play a vital role in the evolutionary process.

The whole mutation theory is a contradiction to me. I do not see any benefit to errors and mistakes. We used to talk about how Jesus had a board stretcher, so if He made a mistake in cutting a board, he could stretch it out.

 

[Diamond72]

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:5, recounting the creation story where God brings order to the cosmos, separating light from darkness and naming them Day and Night. It's a beautiful and poetic part of the Biblical narrative, illustrating the beginning of time and the natural cycle we experience every day.

The imagery of evening and morning forming the first day captures the rhythm and harmony of creation. It's a foundational moment that many find deeply meaningful and reflective of the divine order in the universe.

Albert Einstein received numerous prestigious awards and honors throughout his life, with the most famous being the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921, awarded for his work on the photoelectric effect, which was foundational to quantum theory.

If you believe you have a deeper understanding of time than Einstein or other experts like Gerald Schroeder, perhaps you could share your credentials, such as a Nobel Prize in Physics or a Ph.D. in the field, to demonstrate your expertise. After all, these individuals have spent their lives conducting research and contributing to our understanding of time and the universe.

What school did you go to and what degree do you have? I claim nothing for myself. I only share with you want the experts have to say about the subject of time.

Neil deGrasse Tyson has shared many insights about time throughout his career, often blending science with engaging commentary. Tyson often explains how time is relative, drawing on Einstein's theory of special relativity.

by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.” (Deuteronomy 19:15b)

 

[Diamond72]

Rapid Climate Change: The warming period, sometimes referred to as the deglaciation, happened relatively quickly in geological terms—over a period of about 5,000–6,000 years. During this transition, temperatures rose significantly, especially in the higher latitudes, which caused dramatic environmental changes. Large lakes formed, rivers shifted, and forests spread into areas previously covered by ice.

Psalm 90:4 (NIV):

"For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

This verse is part of a prayer by Moses, where he reflects on the eternality and timelessness of God. It states that a thousand years are like a single day in God's perspective. This is often interpreted to mean that time, from God's point of view, is not limited or bound by human concepts of time.

• Interpretation: The phrase "a thousand years are like a day" emphasizes that God's view of time is vastly different from human time. It's often seen as a poetic way of expressing God's timelessness and the eternal nature of His existence.

 

[Platte]

Genesis 1:5, recounting the creation story where God brings order to the cosmos, separating light from darkness and naming them Day and Night. It's a beautiful and poetic part of the Biblical narrative, illustrating the beginning of time and the natural cycle we experience every day.

The imagery of evening and morning forming the first day captures the rhythm and harmony of creation. It's a foundational moment that many find deeply meaningful and reflective of the divine order in the universe.

Albert Einstein received numerous prestigious awards and honors throughout his life, with the most famous being the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921, awarded for his work on the photoelectric effect, which was foundational to quantum theory.

If you believe you have a deeper understanding of time than Einstein or other experts like Gerald Schroeder, perhaps you could share your credentials, such as a Nobel Prize in Physics or a Ph.D. in the field, to demonstrate your expertise. After all, these individuals have spent their lives conducting research and contributing to our understanding of time and the universe.

What school did you go to and what degree do you have? I claim nothing for myself. I only share with you want the experts have to say about the subject of time.

Neil deGrasse Tyson has shared many insights about time throughout his career, often blending science with engaging commentary. Tyson often explains how time is relative, drawing on Einstein's theory of special relativity.

by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.” (Deuteronomy 19:15b)

You have a pretty detailed description of Creation and you dismiss it or call it poetry because Science can’t explain it. There was light on the earth before the sun was created - neither Einstein nor deGrasse can explain how that was possible. There will be no science that will be able to explain when Jesus comes back and call those in the grave to be resurrected and those alive to be brought up into Heaven. But it will happen. God created the earth and all that is in it in 6 days. Those are direct words from Gods himself. If you don’t believe the Bible…especially the Words of Moses how will you believe what Jesus said (not my words).
If you want to know how God created the earth and the universe read Genesis. Changing what the Bible says is the same thing as not believing the Bible.
Nothing in science denies creation occurring approx 6000 years ago and taking 6 days. That historical event is given to you in the Bible. Recorded history supports that timeframe.

 

[Platte]

Rapid Climate Change: The warming period, sometimes referred to as the deglaciation, happened relatively quickly in geological terms—over a period of about 5,000–6,000 years. During this transition, temperatures rose significantly, especially in the higher latitudes, which caused dramatic environmental changes. Large lakes formed, rivers shifted, and forests spread into areas previously covered by ice.

Psalm 90:4 (NIV):


This verse is part of a prayer by Moses, where he reflects on the eternality and timelessness of God. It states that a thousand years are like a single day in God's perspective. This is often interpreted to mean that time, from God's point of view, is not limited or bound by human concepts of time.

• Interpretation: The phrase "a thousand years are like a day" emphasizes that God's view of time is vastly different from human time. It's often seen as a poetic way of expressing God's timelessness and the eternal nature of His existence.

You’ve successfully identified that God is fully aware of what a day is - just like you and I are aware of what a day is. God can probably use “day” in a sentence appropriately too.