Did God create the earth formless?

[Platte]

Where is the link? This is the 3rd and the last time I have asked this question.

Basic assumptions of science - Understanding Science

You should see that as a link. If not let me know and I’ll post the URL

 

[Diamond72]

Science agrees that God created the universe and the earth?

I did not say Science knows everything. If they did we would not need God. Science is agnostic. They can not prove God but they also can not prove there is no God. By pointing out the limits of science is NOT a contradiction with the Bible. We have quantum physics because that goes beyond the limits of classic physics.

There are two ways Science can prove God is with the block theory of time and a discussion on a singularity. Just to name a few. While entanglement does not prove God, it does show how everything is one in God.

Block Theory of Time:​

• Concept: The block theory of time (or eternalism) suggests that past, present, and future events all exist simultaneously in a "block" universe. This view aligns with the idea that time is a dimension similar to space.
• Theological Implications: Some argue that this concept can support the notion of an omniscient deity who exists outside of time and perceives all events at once, akin to how God is described in many religious texts.

Singularity:​

• Concept: In physics, a singularity refers to a point where quantities that are used to measure the gravitational field become infinite. It's often associated with the Big Bang, the origin point of the universe.
• Theological Implications: Some see the singularity as a moment of divine creation, where the universe was brought into existence by a transcendent force. The idea that the universe had a beginning aligns with the concept of creation ex nihilo (creation out of nothing).

Quantum Entanglement:​

• Concept: Quantum entanglement is a phenomenon where particles become interconnected in such a way that the state of one particle instantaneously affects the state of another, no matter the distance between them.
• Theological Implications: While entanglement doesn't prove the existence of God, it can be seen as a metaphor for the interconnectedness of all things, which some interpret as reflecting a divine unity.

Bridging Science and Faith:​

• Complementary Views: Many find that science and faith can complement each other, offering different perspectives on the same reality. Science explains the how, while faith often addresses the why.
• Philosophical Reflections: Engaging with scientific concepts can enrich theological reflections and provide a deeper appreciation of the complexity and wonder of the universe.

 

[trophy33]

I did not say Science knows everything. If they did we would not need God.

Our need of God is not related to scientific knowledge. Also, this claim seems quite a lot like the God of the gaps fallacy.

God is not something we insert into the blind spots of the scientific discoveries. That is both bad science and bad theology.

 

[Diamond72]

Our need of God is not related to scientific knowledge.

Our need for God is because of the failure of science and knowledge apart from God. Science is a study of God and HOW He does what He does through natural laws.

 

[trophy33]

Our need for God is because of the failure of science and knowledge apart from God. Science is a study of God and HOW He does what He does through natural laws.

Our need for God has nothing to do with human science and its achievements or weak spots.

 

[Platte]

I did not say Science knows everything

No you didn’t. But you did say that science always agrees with the Bible. Do you really believe Science agrees that God created the universe and the earth? That He made man in his image? That he sent his son Jesus from Heaven to pay the price of sin for man by dying on the cross? That if you accept salvation through Jesus Christ you will be resurrected after you die and live eternally with God?
Science agrees there was a worldwide flood?
Science agrees Israelites were slaves in Egypt for 400 years and was led out by Moses?

 

[Diamond72]

But you did say that science always agrees with the Bible.

I said there is no contradiction. You can not twist my words that way. I did a lot of renovation and restoration work. God restores us back to His plan and purpose for us. You can not prove a miracle because everything is restored and looks the way God intended things to be.

. Many people find deep meaning in the concept that God can restore us to His original intention and purpose, bringing healing and renewal.

Spiritual Restoration:​

• Biblical Promises: The Bible speaks frequently about God's promise to restore and renew His people. Verses like Joel 2:25 ("I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten") and Psalm 23:3 ("He restores my soul") reflect this theme.
• Miracles and Restoration: In this view, miracles might not always appear as supernatural disruptions but as acts of restoration that align with God's ultimate design and purpose.

 

[Diamond72]

Science agrees there was a worldwide flood?

The Bible is literal and the Bible is symbolic. In the case of Noah's flood the "world" is what we call a biodiverse ecosystem. Eden was very special in that it contained domesticated animals and cultivated plants. Science can tell us exactly what the difference is between a wild plant and a cultivated plant. There are PhD's at the universities in Jerusalem that are experts in how the wild plants of the middle east became cultivated. I can not go into all the details because like everything else it would take a whole book to explain this and these posts need to be very short.

There is a best selling book called Paradigm that helps to explain how symbolism in the Bible works. This is for mature Christians because baby Christians can only understand the literal Bible. The world wide flood actually took place at Pangea 200 million years ago. The Bible uses the word shadows and types.

My question is how did sea shells get to the top of the mountains if there was no world wide flood? Why do we find dinosaur remains in flood deposits if there was no world wide flood?

God is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. He does not change. Science calls this block time. The block theory of time, also known as eternalism, is a concept in the philosophy of time. According to this theory, time is viewed as an extended "block" where all events—past, present, and future—exist simultaneously.

I do not expect people to understand the answer. PhD's struggle with understanding time. I took four teacher training classes at an accredited Bible College. I am almost qualified to be a superintendent. So I do understand how you have to teach people at the level they are at.

There is a word in the Bible for the whole earth but sometimes that word means just the ground that we grow plants on. There is also a word for Eden "adamah".

You​

There is a word in the Bible for the whole earth but sometimes that word means just the ground that we grow plants on. There is also a word for Eden "adamah".

Copilot​

You're correct! The Hebrew language in the Bible often uses specific words with nuanced meanings that can vary depending on the context. Here are some key terms related to your observation:

Earth and Ground:​

• Eretz (אֶרֶץ): This Hebrew word is commonly translated as "earth" or "land." It can refer to the entire planet, a specific country, or even a piece of ground, depending on the context.
• Adamah (אֲדָמָה): This word specifically means "ground" or "soil." It is often used to refer to the fertile earth from which plants grow. It’s also the root word for "Adam," symbolizing the connection between humans and the earth, as Adam was created from the dust of the ground (Genesis 2:7).

Eden:​

• Gan Eden (גַּן עֵדֶן): This phrase means "Garden of Eden." It refers to the paradisiacal garden described in Genesis where Adam and Eve lived before the Fall.

Symbolic Meanings:​

• Adamah and Eden: The word "adamah" reflects the idea of fertility, life, and human origin, which is fitting for the Garden of Eden as a place of abundance and the origin of humanity.

Contextual Interpretation:​

• Biblical Hebrew often uses words that can have multiple meanings depending on the context, and understanding these nuances can provide deeper insights into the text’s meaning and symbolism.

Exploring these terms can deepen your appreciation for the rich layers of meaning in the biblical narratives. Isn’t it amazing how language can convey such depth and symbolism?

 

[Diamond72]

Science agrees Israelites were slaves in Egypt for 400 years and was led out by Moses?

We know what the Bible says. There is NOTHING in science that contradicts the Bible. We need both like we need our left and our right hand. You can study science and you can study the bible with full assurance that they do not contradict themselves at all.

You are correct, science does not prove the Bible. Science can not prove that there is a God. That is why we are to live by faith. Atheists try to say that science disproves the Bible. They also say God is not a God of Justice. They do try to hijack science to disprove the Bible but they 100% fail in their attempt.

I can show the consequences of their error, but that gets people upset.

Not everyone agrees with you though. They say Science does prove that God exists. Even Science admits that God could have created the natural laws. They are just as invisible as God is. We can only see the effect, we can not see the cause.

Science and Evidence of God:​

• Indirect Evidence: While science deals with natural laws and observable phenomena, it often leads to questions that transcend its scope, such as the origins of those laws and the underlying cause of the universe's existence.
• Natural Laws: Many scientists and philosophers argue that the very existence of natural laws and the order in the universe suggests a designer or creator. The regularity and consistency of these laws can be seen as pointing to a higher intelligence.
• Effect and Cause: The idea that we observe effects (like the natural laws) but not necessarily the cause (which some attribute to God) resonates with many believers. This aligns with the philosophical notion that certain aspects of reality point beyond what can be empirically observed.

"Empirically" refers to gaining knowledge through observation and experience, rather than through theory or pure logic. It's about collecting data and evidence from the real world and using that information to understand and explain phenomena.

 

[tonychanyt]

Basic assumptions of science - Understanding Science

You should see that as a link. If not let me know and I’ll post the URL

Thanks for the reference. This is how to do referencing and quotation in a scholarly manner:

1. Display and indent the relevant text.
2. Selectively bold the particular keywords that are important to your point. There is no need to bold the entire sentence. Have a laser-sharp focus.

I do this for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee it will sharpen your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it. I prefer to interact with people who do.

 

[Platte]

There is NOTHING in science that contradicts the Bible.

The Bible says there was a worldwide flood - science says there wasn’t.

 

[Diamond72]

The Bible says there was a worldwide flood

The Bible does NOT say that Noah's flood was a world wide flood. All the evidence shows that Noah's flood was a local flood from our perspective. The word used in the Hebrew is Adamah. This is the land of Eden. The world wide flood took place at the time of Pangea. This is why we find fossils from the ocean at the top of the rocky mountains and the top of the Himalayan mountains.

The Bible has many layers of meaning and talks about different things at the same time. There is a literal Bible that we teach to children. Then when they grow up and become adults we start to learn the symbolism in the Bible. Paul talks about this in 1 corinthians 3

"1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready, "

In Hebrew, the word "Adamah" refers to the ground or earth and is closely related to the name "Adam," who is created from the dust of the ground according to the Genesis narrative.

Some people are not ready for solid food. They only talk about the literal Bible and not the symbolism of the Bible.

Science and the Bible are in agreement. There are no contradictions. Many many books can be and has been written to explain all that God has done. John talks about this:

John 21:25​

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were recorded one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books."

Connection to Eden:​

• Adamah: This word emphasizes the connection between humanity and the earth. Adam was formed from the ground (Adamah), symbolizing the intimate link between humans and their environment.
• Eden: The Garden of Eden is described as a paradisiacal place where the first humans, Adam and Eve, lived. It is often associated with the origin of human life and the presence of God.

Symbolic Meaning:​

• Creation and Life: The use of "Adamah" underscores the idea that humans are intrinsically connected to the earth. It reflects themes of creation, life, and the sustenance provided by the land.
• Spiritual and Physical Connection: This connection between Adam and Adamah highlights the spiritual and physical relationship humans have with their environment, emphasizing stewardship and care for the earth.

 

[Platte]

The Bible does NOT say that Noah's flood was a world wide flood. All the evidence shows that Noah's flood was a local flood from our perspective. The word used in the Hebrew is Adamah. This is the land of Eden. The world wide flood took place at the time of Pangea. This is why we find fossils from the ocean at the top of the rocky mountains and the top of the Himalayan mountains.

The Bible has many layers of meaning and talks about different things at the same time. There is a literal Bible that we teach to children. Then when they grow up and become adults we start to learn the symbolism in the Bible. Paul talks about this in 1 corinthians 3

"1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready, "

In Hebrew, the word "Adamah" refers to the ground or earth and is closely related to the name "Adam," who is created from the dust of the ground according to the Genesis narrative.

Some people are not ready for solid food. They only talk about the literal Bible and not the symbolism of the Bible.

Science and the Bible are in agreement. There are no contradictions. Many many books can be and has been written to explain all that God has done. John talks about this:

John 21:25​

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were recorded one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books."

Connection to Eden:​

• Adamah: This word emphasizes the connection between humanity and the earth. Adam was formed from the ground (Adamah), symbolizing the intimate link between humans and their environment.
• Eden: The Garden of Eden is described as a paradisiacal place where the first humans, Adam and Eve, lived. It is often associated with the origin of human life and the presence of God.

Symbolic Meaning:​

• Creation and Life: The use of "Adamah" underscores the idea that humans are intrinsically connected to the earth. It reflects themes of creation, life, and the sustenance provided by the land.
• Spiritual and Physical Connection: This connection between Adam and Adamah highlights the spiritual and physical relationship humans have with their environment, emphasizing stewardship and care for the earth.

The Bible does say that all flesh upon the earth was killed and only Noah and those on the ark remained alive.

 

[Diamond72]

The Bible does say that all flesh upon the earth was killed and only Noah and those on the ark remained alive.

If you are going to quote the Bible then give me a chapter and verse so we can have a discussion. Or we can just study the word "Earth" in the dictionary. "Earth" can refer to the physical ground, a territory, or the whole world. Science tells us that Noah's flood was not a world wide flood.

For me "earth" means a territory so that there is NO conflict between science and the Bible.

אֶרֶץ (Eretz)​

• Meaning: This is the most commonly used word for "earth" or "land" in Hebrew. It can refer to the physical ground, a territory, or the whole world.
• Biblical Usage: Frequently used in the Bible, such as in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (eretz)."

אָדָמָה (Adamah)​

• Meaning: This word specifically refers to soil or ground, and it is closely related to the name "Adam," who was created from the dust of the ground (adamah).
• Biblical Usage: Used in Genesis 2:7, "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground (adamah) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life."

 

[Platte]

If you are going to quote the Bible then give me a chapter and verse so we can have a discussion. Or we can just study the word "Earth" in the dictionary. "Earth" can refer to the physical ground, a territory, or the whole world. Science tells us that Noah's flood was not a world wide flood.

For me "earth" means a territory so that there is NO conflict between science and the Bible.

אֶרֶץ (Eretz)​

• Meaning: This is the most commonly used word for "earth" or "land" in Hebrew. It can refer to the physical ground, a territory, or the whole world.
• Biblical Usage: Frequently used in the Bible, such as in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (eretz)."

אָדָמָה (Adamah)​

• Meaning: This word specifically refers to soil or ground, and it is closely related to the name "Adam," who was created from the dust of the ground (adamah).
• Biblical Usage: Used in Genesis 2:7, "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground (adamah) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life."

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭13‬
“And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭17‬

 

[Diamond72]

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭13‬
“And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭17‬

Theological Considerations:​

• Universal vs. Local Flood: Some scholars argue for a universal flood, while others suggest a regional flood that impacted the known world at that time. My interpretation aligns with the idea of a regional event focused on a specific area like Eden.
• Adam and Creation: The distinction between the creation of humanity in Genesis 1 and the specific creation of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 is another area of scholarly debate. Some view these as separate accounts with different focuses, while others see them as part of a single, unified narrative.

Implications:​

• Divine Judgment: Regardless of the scope, the flood narrative underscores God's judgment against pervasive wickedness and His commitment to righteousness.
• Preservation and Renewal: The preservation of Noah, his family, and the animals on the ark signifies God's mercy and the hope for renewal and restoration.

The problem is YEC shoot themselves in the foot when they say God destroyed all of what they say does not exist. Because we have to look at the word "earth". "erets: Earth, land, ground, country, territory"

You assume that mankind in Chapter one is the Adam in Chapter two. God does not destroy mankind in Chapter one, He only destroys the Garden of Eden and the descendants of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Except of course for what Noah saves on the Ark.

Eden is a biodiverse ecosystem that may well have been Noah's world. But not our world today. Eden was made up of domesticated animals and cultivated plants. They have the breath of life. The phrase "breath of life" in Hebrew is נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים (nishmat chayim).

This of course is yet another word study. But if you want to understand the Bible then you need to study the words to see what they mean. Some people even study the meaning of the letters. In this case we are looking at the first letter in the Bible Bet or B. This represents God's desire to build himself a house that He can dwell in. He wants to be a part of His creation and that is why He made man in His image. We are the temple of God.

God did not want to destroy man. So God sent His Son to redeem and to restore mankind. He does not make robots. He gives us the freedom of choice to decide if we want to serve Him or not.

 

[Platte]

Theological Considerations:​

• Universal vs. Local Flood: Some scholars argue for a universal flood, while others suggest a regional flood that impacted the known world at that time. My interpretation aligns with the idea of a regional event focused on a specific area like Eden.
• Adam and Creation: The distinction between the creation of humanity in Genesis 1 and the specific creation of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 is another area of scholarly debate. Some view these as separate accounts with different focuses, while others see them as part of a single, unified narrative.

Implications:​

• Divine Judgment: Regardless of the scope, the flood narrative underscores God's judgment against pervasive wickedness and His commitment to righteousness.
• Preservation and Renewal: The preservation of Noah, his family, and the animals on the ark signifies God's mercy and the hope for renewal and restoration.

The problem is YEC shoot themselves in the foot when they say God destroyed all of what they say does not exist. Because we have to look at the word "earth". "erets: Earth, land, ground, country, territory"

You assume that mankind in Chapter one is the Adam in Chapter two. God does not destroy mankind in Chapter one, He only destroys the Garden of Eden and the descendants of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Except of course for what Noah saves on the Ark.

Eden is a biodiverse ecosystem that may well have been Noah's world. But not our world today. Eden was made up of domesticated animals and cultivated plants. They have the breath of life. The phrase "breath of life" in Hebrew is נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים (nishmat chayim).

This of course is yet another word study. But if you want to understand the Bible then you need to study the words to see what they mean. Some people even study the meaning of the letters. In this case we are looking at the first letter in the Bible Bet or B. This represents God's desire to build himself a house that He can dwell in. He wants to be a part of His creation and that is why He made man in His image. We are the temple of God.

God did not want to destroy man. So God sent His Son to redeem and to restore mankind. He does not make robots. He gives us the freedom of choice to decide if we want to serve Him or not.

Chapter 1 and chapter 2 refer to the same event. The flood destroy all living. Makes a lot of sense to have an ark full of 2 of each animals if it was only regional. It does however support that all living outside the ark was killed as Moses tells us.

 

[Diamond72]

Chapter 1 and chapter 2 refer to the same event.

Not everyone agrees with that. But you are entitled to have your opinion if I agree with you or not.

Makes a lot of sense to have an ark full of 2 of each animals if it was only regional.

The animals on the ark that we read about in our Bible were domesticated animals. We do not see any reference to the Kangaroo or the Tazar monkey in our Bible. There are 10,000 islands in the South Pacific. My wife is from one of them. Mindanao: the second largest island. Every island has it's own unique diversity of plants and animals. It would have been impossible for Noah to save all of those animals on all of those islands on his ark.

The facts as we know them do not support that Noah's flood was a world wide flood. When we study our Bible we see that the Bible does not support a world wide flood. God did not destory the Adam from Chapter one. Only the flood effected the descendants of Adam and Eve in Chapter two that had the "breath of life".

1. Regional Flood: Some scholars propose a more regional interpretation, suggesting that the flood affected the known world of the time rather than the entire globe.

 

[Platte]

Not everyone agrees with that. But you are entitled to have your opinion if I agree with you or not.

Genesis 1 and 2 refer to the same event. Read it again, it will come to you.

The animals on the ark that we read about in our Bible were domesticated animals. We do not see any reference to the Kangaroo or the Tazar monkey in our Bible. There are 10,000 islands in the South Pacific. My wife is from one of them. Mindanao: the second largest island. Every island has its own unique diversity of plants and animals. It would have been impossible for Noah to save all of those animals on all of those islands on his ark.

The facts as we know them do not support that Noah's flood was a world wide flood. When we study our Bible we see that the Bible does not support a world wide flood. God did not destory the Adam from Chapter one. Only the flood effected the descendants of Adam and Eve in Chapter two that had the "breath of life".

1. Regional Flood: Some scholars propose a more regional interpretation, suggesting that the flood affected the known world of the time rather than the entire globe.

2 of every animal kind was on the ark. The Bible says it was a world wide flood and that all life outside of the ark was destroyed/kiled. If you have scripture that supports a regional flood please reference it

 

[Diamond72]

Read it again, it will come to you.

I have already read them many hundreds of times. I study the meaning of each and every word extensively. I study to see what we can test and verify to be true.

My belief is that each day is half the length of the day before. So day one is 8 billion years, day two is four billion years, day three is two billion years, day four is one billion years, day five is 500 million years and day six is 250 million years.

Then I go to science and ask: When did God create mankind. The Bible and science agree that mankind began 250 million years ago. So my belief agrees with BOTH science and the Bible.

The Bible is written from the perspective of the beginning looking forward. We are looking back. So this is why every day is half the length of the day before according to Gerold Schroeder. Schroeder's interpretation seeks to bridge the gap between scientific understanding and biblical texts, suggesting that they can complement rather than contradict each other.

Gerald Lawrence Schroeder is an American Israeli physicist, author, and lecturer1. He is known for his work in reconciling science and spirituality, often focusing on the relationship between modern scientific understanding and traditional religious beliefs. Schroeder has written several books on this topic, including "Genesis and the Big Bang" and "The Science of God," where he explores how scientific discoveries can complement and enhance religious perspectives.