Did God Create Fossils?

[Colter]

Except for the organisms needed for growing one olive leaf found later
in the story. Each plant includes an ecosystem.

Well yea, the creators of the story didn't realize that, they didn't think a lot of things through. The point was to trace their pretentious blood lines back to Adam who they assumed was the first man on earth. They didn't know any better, they had no science. The redactors didn't think through Cain's fear of other tribes away from his own.

 

[SkyWriting]

Well yea, the creators of the story didn't realize that, they didn't think a lot of things through.

You are projecting your lack of effort and scholarship in this matter onto others.
Due to translation difficulties, you are seeing problems that 1000's of scholars have
determined, don't exist.

 

[SkyWriting]

But if some moron came along and wanted to play your game they may ask where Noah put all the pairs of marine mammals who breath air, who have the "breath of life" in them according to your twisted logic?

No marine animals of any kind were on the Ark. The Flood was for the
goal of reshaping the situation with man.

 

[SkyWriting]

Its not news to me, the story is a fabrication, that's why there are so many contradictions within it.

Ok......if it was fabricated.....why would it have any inconsistencies again?
Like Issac Asimov does?

There are no known contradictions.
Having multiple authors or witnesses is not known to
diminish any historical account.
There are about 15000 books on Abraham Lincoln
Please argue how the inconsistencies in these books suggest they are fiction?

 

[Riberra]

"I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish."

Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures THAT MOVE ALONG the GROUND and the birds were wiped from the earth.

Marine creatures were not destroyed.....only land surface animals including birds were destroyed.

 

[Colter]

No marine animals of any kind were on the Ark. The Flood was for the
goal of reshaping the situation with man.

And it didn't work! That's another reason the flood story is obviously conceived by human minds. Mankind was just as imperfect as he was before the genealogically motivated flood myth. God never has and never will regret anything he does, did or will ever do.

 

[Colter]

Marine creatures were not destroyed.....only land surface animals including birds were destroyed.

That's not what the authors of the flood story said.

 

[Colter]

You are projecting your lack of effort and scholarship in this matter onto others.
Due to translation difficulties, you are seeing problems that 1000's of scholars have
determined, don't exist.

No, it's a straight forward story that lacked vision on the part of the people who invented it. One doesn't need to be a rocket surgeon to see the problem. Billions of people believe the Quran was also written by God, sheer numbers of believers does not make something so silly out to be true.

 

[SkyWriting]

No, it's a straight forward story that lacked vision on the part of the people who invented it.

Lack of vision is not a learned description, even by the most critical of experts.

 

[Riberra]

No, it's a straight forward story that lacked vision on the part of the people who invented it.

When applied to the The Urantia Book we get the lack of vision of those who invented it.I suppose that one of the thing who have make you believe into the "accuracy" of the "revelations" from The Urantia Book was the level of the science carried by those supposed "celestial beings with superior knowledge" ....lets see :

5.2 Criticism of its science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book#Criticism_of_its_science

Skeptics like Martin Gardner see the science in The Urantia Book as clear reflections of the views that prevailed at the time the book is said to have originated.[101] The claim by the authors, that no unknown scientific discoveries could be imparted, is seen as a ruse to allow mistakes to be dismissed later.[102] That presentation of post-1955 scientific knowledge is avoided is taken to be evidence it was written by humans and not by celestial beings with superior knowledge.[101]

Examples of criticisms regarding the science in The Urantia Book include:

The described formation of the solar system is consistent with the Chamberlin-Moulton planetesimal hypothesis,[103] which though popular in the early part of the 20th century, was discarded by the 1940s after major flaws were noted.[104] The currently accepted scientific explanation for the origin of the solar system is based on the nebular hypothesis.[103]
According to the book's descriptions, the universe is hundreds of billions of years old and periodically expands and contracts — "respires" — at 2-billion-year intervals. Recent observations suggest that the true age of the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years.[105] The book does not support the big bang theory.[106]
A fundamental particle called an "ultimaton" is proposed, with an electron being composed of 100 ultimatons. The particle is not known to be described anywhere else and the concept is not supported by modern particle physics.[107]
The Andromeda Galaxy is claimed to be "almost one million" light years away, repeating the understandings of the 1920s,[108] but the galaxy is now understood to be 2.5 million light years away.
The book repeats the mistaken idea that planets close to a sun will gradually spin slower until one hemisphere is left always turned to the sun due to tidal locking, citing Mercury as an example. Scientists at the time of the book's origin thought one side of Mercury always faced the sun, just as one side of the Moon always faces the Earth. In 1965, radio astronomers discovered however that Mercury rotates fast enough for all sides to see exposure to the sun.[106] Scientists further established that Mercury is locked in this spin rate in a stable resonance of 3 spins for every 2 orbits, and it is not slowing and so will never have one side left always turned to the sun.[109]


5.3 Use of other published material without attribution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book#Use_of_other_published_material_without_attribution

The Urantia Book states in its Foreword that more than one thousand "human concepts representing the highest and most advanced planetary knowledge of spiritual values and universe meanings"[124] were selected in preparing the papers. The authors say that they were required to "give preference to the highest existing human concepts pertaining to the subjects to be presented" and would "resort to pure revelation only when the concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind." One of the authors wrote in Part IV: "I well know that those concepts which have had origin in the human mind will prove more acceptable and helpful to all other human minds."[125]

In recent years, students of the papers have found that the free use of other sources appears to be true.[126][127] None of the material allegedly used from other sources is directly cited or referenced within the book.

In 1992, a reader of The Urantia Book, Matthew Block, self-published a paper that showed The Urantia Book utilized material from 15 other books.[128] All of the source authors identified in Block's paper were published in English between 1905 and 1943 by U.S. publishers and are typically scholarly or academic works that contain concepts and wording similar to what is found in The Urantia Book.[126] Block has since claimed to have discovered over 125 source texts that were incorporated into the papers.[129]

The use of outside source materials was studied separately by Gardner and Gooch, and they concluded that the book did plagiarize many of the sources noted by Block.[130][131]

For instance, Gardner and Block note that Paper 85 appears to have been taken from the first eight chapters of Origin and Evolution of Religion by Edward Washburn Hopkins, published by Yale University Press in 1923.[132] Each section of the paper corresponds to a chapter in the book, with several passages possibly used as direct material and further material used in Papers 86-90 and 92. (In addition to the book's "heavy indebtedness to Hopkins," Gardner discovered that Hopkins was a major reference in an earlier book authored by Sadler, adding to Gardner's view that it is more likely Sadler had a hand in writing or editing The Urantia Book than that celestial beings wrote it.) Likewise, much of The Urantia Book material relating to the evolution of mankind appears to have been directly taken from Henry Fairfield Osborn, Man Rises to Parnassus: Critical Epochs in the Prehistory of Man published by Princeton University Press in 1928.[133]

In one example cited by Block and confirmed by Gardner and Gooch, the original author discusses the periodicity of the chemical elements and concludes that the harmony in the construction of the atom suggests some unspecified plan of organization. The authors of The Urantia Book assert that this harmony is evidence of the intelligent design of the universe. W. F. G. Swann writes on page 64 of The Architecture of the Universe (italics indicate edits as compared to The Urantia Book, bolding indicates deletions):[134][135]

Go here for the detailed comparison :
5.3 Use of other published material without attribution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book#Use_of_other_published_material_without_attribution

 

[Colter]

When applied to the The Urantia Book we get the lack of vision of those who invented it.I suppose that one of the thing who have make you believe into the "accuracy" of the "revelations" from The Urantia Book was the level of the science carried by those supposed "celestial beings with superior knowledge" ....lets see :

5.2 Criticism of its science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book#Criticism_of_its_science

Skeptics like Martin Gardner see the science in The Urantia Book as clear reflections of the views that prevailed at the time the book is said to have originated.[101] The claim by the authors, that no unknown scientific discoveries could be imparted, is seen as a ruse to allow mistakes to be dismissed later.[102] That presentation of post-1955 scientific knowledge is avoided is taken to be evidence it was written by humans and not by celestial beings with superior knowledge.[101]

Examples of criticisms regarding the science in The Urantia Book include:

The described formation of the solar system is consistent with the Chamberlin-Moulton planetesimal hypothesis,[103] which though popular in the early part of the 20th century, was discarded by the 1940s after major flaws were noted.[104] The currently accepted scientific explanation for the origin of the solar system is based on the nebular hypothesis.[103]
According to the book's descriptions, the universe is hundreds of billions of years old and periodically expands and contracts — "respires" — at 2-billion-year intervals. Recent observations suggest that the true age of the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years.[105] The book does not support the big bang theory.[106]
A fundamental particle called an "ultimaton" is proposed, with an electron being composed of 100 ultimatons. The particle is not known to be described anywhere else and the concept is not supported by modern particle physics.[107]
The Andromeda Galaxy is claimed to be "almost one million" light years away, repeating the understandings of the 1920s,[108] but the galaxy is now understood to be 2.5 million light years away.
The book repeats the mistaken idea that planets close to a sun will gradually spin slower until one hemisphere is left always turned to the sun due to tidal locking, citing Mercury as an example. Scientists at the time of the book's origin thought one side of Mercury always faced the sun, just as one side of the Moon always faces the Earth. In 1965, radio astronomers discovered however that Mercury rotates fast enough for all sides to see exposure to the sun.[106] Scientists further established that Mercury is locked in this spin rate in a stable resonance of 3 spins for every 2 orbits, and it is not slowing and so will never have one side left always turned to the sun.[109]


5.3 Use of other published material without attribution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book#Use_of_other_published_material_without_attribution

The Urantia Book states in its Foreword that more than one thousand "human concepts representing the highest and most advanced planetary knowledge of spiritual values and universe meanings"[124] were selected in preparing the papers. The authors say that they were required to "give preference to the highest existing human concepts pertaining to the subjects to be presented" and would "resort to pure revelation only when the concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind." One of the authors wrote in Part IV: "I well know that those concepts which have had origin in the human mind will prove more acceptable and helpful to all other human minds."[125]

In recent years, students of the papers have found that the free use of other sources appears to be true.[126][127] None of the material allegedly used from other sources is directly cited or referenced within the book.

In 1992, a reader of The Urantia Book, Matthew Block, self-published a paper that showed The Urantia Book utilized material from 15 other books.[128] All of the source authors identified in Block's paper were published in English between 1905 and 1943 by U.S. publishers and are typically scholarly or academic works that contain concepts and wording similar to what is found in The Urantia Book.[126] Block has since claimed to have discovered over 125 source texts that were incorporated into the papers.[129]

The use of outside source materials was studied separately by Gardner and Gooch, and they concluded that the book did plagiarize many of the sources noted by Block.[130][131]

For instance, Gardner and Block note that Paper 85 appears to have been taken from the first eight chapters of Origin and Evolution of Religion by Edward Washburn Hopkins, published by Yale University Press in 1923.[132] Each section of the paper corresponds to a chapter in the book, with several passages possibly used as direct material and further material used in Papers 86-90 and 92. (In addition to the book's "heavy indebtedness to Hopkins," Gardner discovered that Hopkins was a major reference in an earlier book authored by Sadler, adding to Gardner's view that it is more likely Sadler had a hand in writing or editing The Urantia Book than that celestial beings wrote it.) Likewise, much of The Urantia Book material relating to the evolution of mankind appears to have been directly taken from Henry Fairfield Osborn, Man Rises to Parnassus: Critical Epochs in the Prehistory of Man published by Princeton University Press in 1928.[133]

In one example cited by Block and confirmed by Gardner and Gooch, the original author discusses the periodicity of the chemical elements and concludes that the harmony in the construction of the atom suggests some unspecified plan of organization. The authors of The Urantia Book assert that this harmony is evidence of the intelligent design of the universe. W. F. G. Swann writes on page 64 of The Architecture of the Universe (italics indicate edits as compared to The Urantia Book, bolding indicates deletions):[134][135]

Go here for the detailed comparison :
5.3 Use of other published material without attribution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book#Use_of_other_published_material_without_attribution

I'm well aware of Atheist Martin Gardners book "Urantia the Great Cult Mystery". I'm also aware of Judaisms scripture based objections to Jesus as the Messiah. Welcome to the world of revelation.

The revelators of the UB state specifically in the beginning of the book that they would use existing human frazeology as much as they could. Some source material was slightly changed to give the exact meaning they desired. It's not at all unusual, the bible authors used numerous quotes and sayings without attributing them.

101:4.2 "Mankind should understand that we who participate in the revelation of truth are very rigorously limited by the instructions of our superiors. We are not at liberty to anticipate the scientific discoveries of a thousand years. Revelators must act in accordance with the instructions which form a part of the revelation mandate. We see no way of overcoming this difficulty, either now or at any future time. We full well know that, while the historic facts and religious truths of this series of revelatory presentations will stand on the records of the ages to come, within a few short years many of our statements regarding the physical sciences will stand in need of revision in consequence of additional scientific developments and new discoveries. These new developments we even now foresee, but we are forbidden to include such humanly undiscovered facts in the revelatory records. Let it be made clear that revelations are not necessarily inspired. The cosmology of these revelations is not inspired. It is limited by our permission for the co-ordination and sorting of present-day knowledge. While divine or spiritual insight is a gift, human wisdom must evolve.

101:4.3 Truth is always a revelation: autorevelation when it emerges as a result of the work of the indwelling Adjuster; epochal revelation when it is presented by the function of some other celestial agency."UB 1955

 

[Riberra]

I'm well aware of Atheist Martin Gardners book "Urantia the Great Cult Mystery". I'm also aware of Judaisms scripture based objections to Jesus as the Messiah. Welcome to the world of revelation.

The revelators of the UB state specifically in the beginning of the book that they would use existing human frazeology as much as they could. Some source material was slightly changed to give the exact meaning they desired. It's not at all unusual, the bible authors used numerous quotes and sayings without attributing them.

Are you saying that those "celestial beings"have acquired their science knowledge based on science books available betwen 1911 and 1955 date of the first release of the The Urantia Book ?

You see no problem with plagiarism ?

101:4.3 Truth is always a revelation: autorevelation when it emerges as a result of the work of the indwelling Adjuster; epochal revelation when it is presented by the function of some other celestial agency."UB 1955[/COLOR]

What kind of truth ?I have read some "material" about the "Administration of the Local Universe"
These are just a collection of mumbo jumbo word salad .......the whole thing from what i have read, sounds like a bad serie B fiction coming from the imagination of a bunch of intellectuals having the desire to create a new cult.

http://www.urantiabook.org/newbook/index.html?gclid=CKLEju3ShMwCFRJZhgodUEQEuw

Paper 033:
Administration of the Local Universe
1. Michael of Nebadon
2. The Sovereign of Nebadon
3. The Universe Son and Spirit
4. Gabriel - The Chief Executive
5. The Trinity Ambassadors
6. General Administration
7. The Courts of Nebadon
8. The Legislative and Executive Functions

 

[Colter]

Are you saying that those "celestial beings"have acquired their science knowledge based on science books available betwen 1911 and 1955 date of the first release of the The Urantia Book ?

You see no problem with plagiarism ?


What kind of truth ?I have read some "material" about the "Administration of the Local Universe"
These are just a collection of mumbo jumbo word salad .......the whole thing from what i have read, sounds like a bad serie B fiction coming from the imagination of a bunch of intellectuals having the desire to create a new cult.

http://www.urantiabook.org/newbook/index.html?gclid=CKLEju3ShMwCFRJZhgodUEQEuw

Paper 033:
Administration of the Local Universe
1. Michael of Nebadon
2. The Sovereign of Nebadon
3. The Universe Son and Spirit
4. Gabriel - The Chief Executive
5. The Trinity Ambassadors
6. General Administration
7. The Courts of Nebadon
8. The Legislative and Executive Functions

No, they said they were restricted in what they could reveal, they were not allowed to give us humanly undiscovered science. But they were allowed to restore bits of lost knowledge, in doing so they provided information that was at odds with the thinking of the science of the early 20th century. Some things have been validated by science after the UB was printed.

There is no plagiarism in the UB, there has not been a single case of any author or agent contesting or bringing suit against the trust for honoring the human thinking or phraseology culled for the 5th epochal presentation. Just like the Bible books.

Some of the same celestials mentioned in the Bible books are a part of the UB.

But none of this has anything to do with the grossly exaggerated flood myth used by the Hebrews to trace their pretentious blood lines back to Adam who they assumed was the first human.

 

[Riberra]

No, they said they were restricted in what they could reveal, they were not allowed to give us humanly undiscovered science. But they were allowed to restore bits of lost knowledge, in doing so they provided information that was at odds with the thinking of the science of the early 20th century. Some things have been validated by science after the UB was printed.

Do you have some examples ?

 

[paloma22]

As for the flood, there wasn't one on the scale depicted in the Noah story.

The fossil record, (billions of dead things buried in sedimentary rocks all over the earth) and the massive amount of GLOBAL flood stories and legends, fossil fuels buried deep in the earth, would argue differently! ;-) Not to mention the Bible!

"For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water." 2 Peter 3:6

 

[paloma22]

No, they said they were restricted in what they could reveal, they were not allowed to give us humanly undiscovered science. But they were allowed to restore bits of lost knowledge,

Why should we believe these supposed "heavenly beings"? [Who wrote the UB] How do we know they speak the True Truth? What is your proof? What are your sources? What is your basis for making such a truth claim?

So what the UB is basically saying is that God was not capable of preserving His Word over the Millennia for mankind since creation; so much so, that different "heavenly beings" had to step into world history and reintroduce lost "truths" to mankind so we can understand who we & God really are? Huh?

The Bible makes the very same claims to Truth as the "UB" does; it tells us the who, why, when & all about the qualifies of God; it tells us there is no other truth but it and if anyone says anything different, then THEY are the liar.

So who's Truth claim is to be believed? Why did these heavenly beings wait so long to come and give us the truth? The Bibles Truth has been around since day one, with Adam, past down via divine protection to the patriarchs ever since.

Considering the Bible has all the answers man could ever need - from life to death and beyond (and everything in between) & considering it gives us real answers that work and make sense in the real world, (i.e tells us about a massive Global Flood that science can pin-point the evidence for) I'd say the Bible is the sure thing, not some recent manifestations of "heavenly beings".

Why should I give the light of day to the "Urantia Book"?

Snip >>> The Urantia Book is a revelation of truth for our world from higher beings in the universe. Its teachings blend science, philosophy, history, cosmology and religion seamlessly into a big picture revealing our origin, our purpose, and our divine and eternal destiny, “the agelong process from animal to angel, from angel to spirit, from spirit to God.” The Urantia Book, (558.2) 48:8.4

http://www.urantiabook-intro.org/FAQ.html

 

[paloma22]

There is no mention of wind or even waves in scripture.

True, but I think we can safely surmise that if a year long Global flood on earth happened (initially being caused by the fountains of the deep being broken open and the flood gates of Heaven being opened Gen 7) then I think wind and waves would be a sure thing - at times anyway. Tidal movements, temperature gradients, local weather patterns etc... would cause some of the destruction that we see water doing today.

 

[paloma22]

Hi Paloma,

I read the link, it was funny and sad. One if the many holes in the Hebrews world wide flood myth is the claim that God killed every living thing. So the micro organisms that decompose bodies as the clowns at AIG claim, would be dead. Therefore this part from the AIG link "In most cases, dead things decompose or get eaten" doesn't work.

Hi Colter,

There are no holes in the flood story...we don't know or understand everything, yes, but that does not make it a hole (as in error or non truth) ;-) All life was not killed, as Genesis makes clear... many fish and marine organisms survived, bacteria and virus's, vegetation etc.. did just fine. He killed the creatures that inhabited the earth with us and those who had the breath of life in them . What does this signify? I don't fully know. There are some insights on this out there...worthy of consideration.

17 I am going to bring flood waters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it.Gen 9:17

And all flesh died that moved on 3the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. v whose nostrils was the breath 4of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. w Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. Gen 7:21

 

[Colter]

The fossil record, (billions of dead things buried in sedimentary rocks all over the earth) and the massive amount of GLOBAL flood stories and legends, fossil fuels buried deep in the earth, would argue differently! ;-) Not to mention the Bible!

"For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water." 2 Peter 3:6

Sure, an old evolved earth has billions of fossils laid down over hundreds of millions of years.

Global flood legends as well as many other myths are indeed common among cultures. But according to Genesis everyone except an ancestor of the Jews were drown, so only descendants of Noah would recall the flood. Australian aborigines aren't Jews paloma22, they've been there for 70,000 years. In fact NO other culture on earth seems to remember being related to Noah!

 

[Colter]

Why should we believe these supposed "heavenly beings"? [Who wrote the UB] How do we know they speak the True Truth? What is your proof? What are your sources? What is your basis for making such a truth claim?

So what the UB is basically saying is that God was not capable of preserving His Word over the Millennia for mankind since creation; so much so, that different "heavenly beings" had to step into world history and reintroduce lost "truths" to mankind so we can understand who we & God really are? Huh?

The Bible makes the very same claims to Truth as the "UB" does; it tells us the who, why, when & all about the qualifies of God; it tells us there is no other truth but it and if anyone says anything different, then THEY are the liar.

So who's Truth claim is to be believed? Why did these heavenly beings wait so long to come and give us the truth? The Bibles Truth has been around since day one, with Adam, past down via divine protection to the patriarchs ever since.

Considering the Bible has all the answers man could ever need - from life to death and beyond (and everything in between) & considering it gives us real answers that work and make sense in the real world, (i.e tells us about a massive Global Flood that science can pin-point the evidence for) I'd say the Bible is the sure thing, not some recent manifestations of "heavenly beings".

Why should I give the light of day to the "Urantia Book"?

Snip >>> The Urantia Book is a revelation of truth for our world from higher beings in the universe. Its teachings blend science, philosophy, history, cosmology and religion seamlessly into a big picture revealing our origin, our purpose, and our divine and eternal destiny, “the agelong process from animal to angel, from angel to spirit, from spirit to God.” The Urantia Book, (558.2) 48:8.4

http://www.urantiabook-intro.org/FAQ.html

God IS the Word, the Living Word, so the argument that God couldn't preserve "his word" is a false dichotomy. The authors of Genesis and the other books of the Bible made no claim to be writing by inspiration, church authority made that claim to maintain control.

Closed minded religious people are incapable of learning more, it gives them a sense of control. Jesus was killed by closed minded religious people.

If you really think there is no more truth to learn about God then there is nothing anyone can do.