Did God Create Fossils?

[homohabilis117]

If the flood did not produce the fossil record, then what did in context of a young earth view? I have heard it said that God could have created coal when He formed the world. But coal comes from organic remains, pressurized over long periods of time. Also, coal seams contain fossils, such as the imprints of leaves and other organic structures. If God created this, he is essentially making detailed evidence of something alive that never lived. Would God do this?

 

[alexandriaisburning]

If the flood did not produce the fossil record, then what did in context of a young earth view? I have heard it said that God could have created coal when He formed the world. But coal comes from organic remains, pressurized over long periods of time. Also, coal seams contain fossils, such as the imprints of leaves and other organic structures. If God created this, he is essentially making detailed evidence of something alive that never lived. Would God do this?

I can't imagine God doing this. It would be easier to suggest that we are simply incapable of properly estimating the age of fossils, although that would call into question a lot of other areas of scientific methodology that.

Of course, the absolutely easiest approach is to simply avoid imposing particular philosophies upon the interpretation of creation epics.

 

[toLiJC]

If the flood did not produce the fossil record, then what did in context of a young earth view? I have heard it said that God could have created coal when He formed the world. But coal comes from organic remains, pressurized over long periods of time. Also, coal seams contain fossils, such as the imprints of leaves and other organic structures. If God created this, he is essentially making detailed evidence of something alive that never lived. Would God do this?

honestly speaking, satan is rather the one that has materialized the prehistoric fossils in order to mislead the worshipers that there is ostensibly no true God i.e. good/righteous

Blessings

 

[ClothedInGrace]

There is no evidence that the devil created or even can create fossils. They are there as a result of the global flood: There is no other biblical explanation. We know that fossils are only created when the body is covered quickly, so the fact that there are so many fossils is actually an evidence for a global covering of dead animals.There are also plenty of Christian science organizations that dedicate their lives to answer questions like these.

 

[Winter_Rose]

I like fossils and I find them interesting. There's nothing bad about them.

 

[HarvestTheFields]

If the flood did not produce the fossil record, then what did in context of a young earth view? I have heard it said that God could have created coal when He formed the world. But coal comes from organic remains, pressurized over long periods of time. Also, coal seams contain fossils, such as the imprints of leaves and other organic structures. If God created this, he is essentially making detailed evidence of something alive that never lived. Would God do this?

I don't believe God would do this, because it would appear to be somewhat deceitful. I don't think God would create fossils and scientific properties that make ancient life forms appear to be millions of years old, when in fact, the whole world is only 6,000 to 12,000 years old. Why would he want to throw us off like that?

From a young-earth perspective, fossils can be be explained through the deception of the devil (as mentioned above), faulty mainstream science (in many areas), "God works in mysterious ways", conspiracy theories, etc.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

I don't believe God would do this, because it would appear to be somewhat deceitful. I don't think God would create fossils and scientific properties that make ancient life forms appear to be millions of years old, when in fact, the whole world is only 6,000 to 12,000 years old. Why would he want to throw us off like that?

Throw us off is an understatement. Such conclusions would require us to call more or less the whole of scientific methodology into question and view with the utmost suspicion any "knowledge" that might be gained thereby.

 

[toLiJC]

Teach the controversy!

http://data:image/png;base64,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

even if it is controversy for some people, it is a truth coming from the true Lord God

Blessings

 

[toLiJC]

There is no evidence that the devil created or even can create fossils. They are there as a result of the global flood: There is no other biblical explanation. We know that fossils are only created when the body is covered quickly, so the fact that there are so many fossils is actually an evidence for a global covering of dead animals.There are also plenty of Christian science organizations that dedicate their lives to answer questions like these.

there is a lot of evidence like this:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 "the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Blessings

 

[ClothedInGrace]

there is a lot of evidence like this:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 "the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Blessings

I would not define that as "evidence." It is a scripture regarding the Antichrist, and there is no mention here about him creating fossils deep beneath the earth. Believing in fossils doesn't make you an atheist: There are many Christians who see the fossil record as being put in place by the flood, as do I.

 

[Colter]

If the flood did not produce the fossil record, then what did in context of a young earth view? I have heard it said that God could have created coal when He formed the world. But coal comes from organic remains, pressurized over long periods of time. Also, coal seams contain fossils, such as the imprints of leaves and other organic structures. If God created this, he is essentially making detailed evidence of something alive that never lived. Would God do this?

The problem is that Genesis is wrong, the Hebrew authors didn't know about evolution. With the ancient oral traditions available to the Hebrew writers in Babylon they pieced together a story for the consumption of the scattered, demoralized, once again captive, Bronze Age Israelite. They made NO claim to be writing by divine inspiration, later generations of preachers made that claim as the basis for their authority after the return. The Gods created the primitive life that evolved into life as we know it.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

The problem is that Genesis is wrong, the Hebrew authors didn't know about evolution. With the ancient oral traditions available to the Hebrew writers in Babylon they pieced together a story for the consumption of the scattered, demoralized, once again captive, Bronze Age Israelite. They made NO claim to be writing by divine inspiration, later generations of preachers made that claim as the basis for their authority after the return. The Gods created the primitive life that evolved into life as we know it.

Genesis is only *wrong* if the authors of it shared the same modern, Western prejudices for historicity that you and I have. It is the interpreters of Genesis who are wrong when they demand that the interpretation must be "right" or "wrong" based on the assumptions of the modern mind. If we suspend such assumptions, and allow the creation epic to speak in its own context, there is no controversy, no incompatibility. It is when we push the Scriptures farther to speak on our terms that the fractures begin to appear.

The creation epic in Genesis was not intended by the authors to be the equivalent of a modern, historical account of the mechanisms of creation. Rather, in keeping with the world view of ancient peoples, it was primarily a vehicle for disseminating religious belief and establishing a community of like-minded people (remember, very few--if any--of the people hearing these narratives would have been "reading" them, especially as they existed orally long before they were ever written down). However, the modern, Western mind can't accept this; the pull of our biases for "historicity" is too strong, and we are compelled to conclude one way or another on the topic of whether or not the narrative of Genesis "actually happened"....the ancients never asked this question.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

The creation epic in Genesis was not intended by the authors to be the equivalent of a modern, historical account of the mechanisms of creation. /QUOTE]

The problem is that Genesis is wrong, the Hebrew authors didn't know about evolution. With the ancient oral traditions available to the Hebrew writers in Babylon they pieced together a story for the consumption of the scattered, demoralized, once again captive, Bronze Age Israelite.

Both of you are wrong. If the Genesis account was simply a made up story then why does God make reference to it in the Old and New Testaments? Why did the Jews believe it was inspired and given by Moses? Don't either of you realize that evolution is a lie? It simply doesn't work, and any "God" who uses it is an dunce in my opinion.

 

[mb5498]

In reference to the last post, there is really no reason for atheists to comment one way or the other comma because they are either coming in because they want to change our minds which they cannot or they are making comments in ignorance as to what is actually in scriptures and what we believe. Of course I encourage them to join in and read what others are saying comma because it may very well open their eyes to what we actually believe as opposed to what they think we believe.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Both of you are wrong. If the Genesis account was simply a made up story then why does God make reference to it in the Old and New Testaments? Why did the Jews believe it was inspired and given by Moses? Don't either of you realize that evolution is a lie? It simply doesn't work, and any "God" who uses it is an dunce in my opinion.

Characterizing it as a "made up story" only proves my point; your modern, Western biases about historicity and the valuation of truth based on historical methodology (a modern concept) lead you to completely unnecessary conclusions regarding the interpretation of the text.

And regarding story-telling, perhaps you should ask Jesus; he "made up" several stories to better communicate with his audience. Does the fact that the stories he told were not "historically true" make him a liar? No, that would be a ridiculous conclusion, but is precisely the conclusion that you are reaching regarding the creation narratives in Genesis.

Try, for just a moment, to suspend your modern, Western biases when interpreting, and try to place yourself into the worldview of the ancients. It might just radically improve your interpretation skills.

 

[Colter]

Genesis is only *wrong* if the authors of it shared the same modern, Western prejudices for historicity that you and I have. It is the interpreters of Genesis who are wrong when they demand that the interpretation must be "right" or "wrong" based on the assumptions of the modern mind. If we suspend such assumptions, and allow the creation epic to speak in its own context, there is no controversy, no incompatibility. It is when we push the Scriptures farther to speak on our terms that the fractures begin to appear.

The creation epic in Genesis was not intended by the authors to be the equivalent of a modern, historical account of the mechanisms of creation. Rather, in keeping with the world view of ancient peoples, it was primarily a vehicle for disseminating religious belief and establishing a community of like-minded people (remember, very few--if any--of the people hearing these narratives would have been "reading" them, especially as they existed orally long before they were ever written down). However, the modern, Western mind can't accept this; the pull of our biases for "historicity" is too strong, and we are compelled to conclude one way or another on the topic of whether or not the narrative of Genesis "actually happened"....the ancients never asked this question.

In principle we agree, but only so far as the motivation of the authors was not one of factual, historical or philosophical consistency. The writing of Genesis, the complete recasting of Hebrew history from an ordinary secular to a miraculous fiction was the result of the devastating pressure brought about by the loss of Jerusalem, re-captivity and overall blow to the Israelites national ego. The vantage point was Babylon. The priestly redactors went to the other extreme, and while it may have served a purpose for the preservation of the Jews it also set the stage for future confusion and misidentification of the Son of God and the purpose of Gods guidance over Israel from Abraham ..........to-----> Jesus.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Try, for just a moment, to suspend your modern, Western biases when interpreting, and try to place yourself into the worldview of the ancients. It might just radically improve your interpretation skills.

So apparently me thinking that something is either true or not is a Western bias of mine?

 

[mb5498]

it should be important to all Christians to realize that most of issues discussed here are irrelevant to whether or not that person is actually I saved member of God's family. While there are many reasons issues discussed here are your relevant to whether or not that person is actually they saved member of the family. Well there are many reasons to believe that every word in the Bible without exception is divine Lee inspired and true, even if there are mistakes and passages improperly recorded , what is important is whether or not that person has a biblically correct relationship with God and his son Jesus Christ based upon Faith, belief, repentance, public confession, followed by baptism and works as described by Paul which are the fruits of the spirit. Regardless of why this Forum was created, it's true purpose is to give believers to the opportunity to explore areas in which they may be confused or have doubts. To that end this forum works very well.

 

[Colter]

As for the flood, there wasn't one on the scale depicted in the Noah story. When the Hebrew authors were attempting to trace their bloodlines (authority) back to a much older Adam and Eve, they couldn't. So they exploited a local flood legend as a genealogical device. It was acceptable to the minds of the age but not to contemporary man. That's why we don't find human skeletons or their settlements along side dinosaurs, because the dinosaurs lived tens of millions of years before man evolved to will consciousness roughly 1 million years ago.

 

[Colter]

So apparently me thinking that something is either true or not is a Western bias of mine?

It's true that the authors of scripture had faith in the promise to Abraham even though they weren't quite sure what that entailed. Heck, even Abraham had blind faith in a future for his descendants that was unclear but trust he did. Soooooo much human speculation contaminates matters. Jesus said "follow me".