Did God create evil?

[AdB]

referring to every NATURAL PHYSICAL THING, not every human idea or concept that a human mind can imagine

Are our good thoughts given by God though? And if they are, where do the bad thoughts originate from?

I would say, the good thoughts are as God intended them to be with His mindset included, the bad thoughts are with His mindset excluded.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Are our good thoughts given by God though? And if they are, where do the bad thoughts originate from?

I would say, the good thoughts are as God intended them to be with His mindset included, the bad thoughts are with His mindset excluded.

I don't see any reason why we can't simply have "good thoughts" on our own without God's help.

 

[Aaron112]

Man is basically evil, without even a thought of turning to God for help.

 

[Aaron112]

How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?

He Is.

No one is able to argue with Him.

 

[AdB]

I don't see any reason why we can't simply have "good thoughts" on our own without God's help.

Because the Bible teaches us...
James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?
And if He didn't create the evil things of this world then He is not the creator of everything..."

I always answer this by asking these questions:
"What is darkness? What is cold?"

I will then present the answers as:
"Darkness is the ABSENCE of light, and cold is the ABSENCE of heat"
So darkness and cold aren't actual things in themselves, they are merely the name we give the ABSENCE of something...

And then I will answer the initial question:
"Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness..."

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

This is pretty much my take as well on this topic. The King James rendering of Isaiah 45:7 often sparks conversation related to this topic.

I form light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.​

John MacArthur takes exception to the King James rendering saying that it is incorrect and misleading and that God is absolutely not the author of evil. While I agree with his ultimate conclusion (that God is not the author of evil), I do not see how translating the Hebrew word ra as "calamity" or "disaster" is any better; neither of these seem to get God off the hook here! To make matters worse, God seems to double down taking full ownership saying "I the Lord do all these things" so seriously, what are we to do with this passage?

I believe the key is in the prior verse where God declares "There is none beside me. I am the Lord, there is none else." I will borrow your line of logic seeing that you have already typed it out here. God is light and in him is no darkness at all (1 Jn 1:5) yet God creates darkness? How come no one calls God out on this? Darkness is the absence of light and evil is the absence of good. One may successfully argue that both are outside the very nature of God as we understand him.

God declares "I am the Lord, there is none else." One could consider evil as a theoretical construct but this evil became a reality when someone (Lucifer) considered something else besides God!

Now the big question to ask is "Why would God give Lucifer and Adam the ability to consider anything outside of himself and allow them to sin which resulted in the fall of all mankind?" The only answer I can think of is that it is FOR HIS GLORY and that he is good in allowing this! Yes, very much difficult to wrap our finite minds around such and perhaps we will have a better understanding of this in the age to come? In our perfect, eternal, and glorified state, it will no longer be possible for us to sin and therefore evil will be fully eradicated aside from those who are eternally separated from God in the lake of fire.

 

[Aaron112]

God does not want robot disciples any more than good parents want robotic programmed children.

The only answer I can think of is that it is FOR HIS GLORY and that he is good in allowing this!

And of course, perhaps already stated, FREE WILL IS PRECIOUS! Without Price!

 

[AdB]

God declares "I am the Lord, there is none else." One could consider evil as a theoretical construct but this evil became a reality when someone (Lucifer) considered something else besides God!

That is a very good way you've put it!
So God DID "create", or better said "allowed" the option of evil by turning away from Him, and that indeed is in accordance with the next briliant point you make.

Now the big question to ask is "Why would God give Lucifer and Adam the ability to consider anything outside of himself and allow them to sin which resulted in the fall of all mankind?" The only answer I can think of is that it is FOR HIS GLORY and that he is good in allowing this!

Indeed, one crucial part of God's character is His mercy, but the only way for Him to demonstrate this is when there is evil to be mercifull about...

 

[Armchair Apologist]

God does not want robot disciples any more than good parents want robotic programmed children.


And of course, perhaps already stated, FREE WILL IS PRECIOUS! Without Price!

Will you have "Free Will" in the age to come when sin is eradicated and it is no longer possible for you to sin or act in disobedience towards God?

Do you have the ability to live without sin in this age?

 

[Aaron112]

Ask God. He Knows. Men are only guessing.

Will you have "Free Will" in the age to come when sin is eradicated and it is no longer possible for you to sin or act in disobedience towards God?

 

[Aaron112]

Not on this forum, no. Sin is encouraged and supported too much.
Elsewhere, ask God.

Do you have the ability to live without sin in this age?

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Ask God. He Knows. Men are only guessing.

Open up your Bible and read it. You will find out that God has already said quite a bit regarding this. God is sovereign, you are not. Deal with it.

 

[NJAmbassador]

So God didn't CREATE evil, He only creates good things.
But where His goodness is rejected an ABSENCE of goodness is created, and the ABSENCE of goodness is called evil...

I would like to know your thoughts about this...

I'm asked the following question regularly...

"How can God be both all-good and the creator of everything when He has also created the evil things of this world?..."

Before I get into my response, let me just first make an observation which I think gets to the heart of the question posed. As Christians, when we are asked questions of this nature, we often feel pressure to apologize for God, to defend Him. I would be lying if I said I had never felt this pressure myself. But the more I have gotten to know my Father, and the more time I have spent in fellowship with Him and in the study of His Word, the more I have come to understand this simple truth: Father does not NEED anyone to defend Him. He makes no apologies for Who He is, and neither should we.

The first verse that naturally popped into my head when I saw the question posed in the thread's title is Isaiah 45:7, to which I see a number of posters have already made reference. Let's take a look at said verse, because taken verbatim in its KJV translation, it pointedly and specifically answers the question:

I am always astounded at Father's perfect and precise use of words in His...err...Word.

For example, I love that the FIRST word He employs in ^ that verse is H3335. <-Because that word, which occurs 62 times, is the same word that is translated "potter" in verses like Isaiah 29:16:

or better yet:​

IOW, Where were YOU when I laid the foundations of the earth? lol [Job 38:4]

OK, so let's get down to brass tacks. Father uses the same word vis a vis DARKNESS and EVIL in Is. 45:7: H1254. But He uses a different word, H6213, wrt the word translated "peace". Why? <-Hopefully I'll get to that, but for now I think it's important to stay with the word translated "create" twice in ^ that verse.

H1254 occurs just 54 times in the Old Testament, and guess where Father FIRST uses it?

Why, in the very FIRST verse, and in the context of His ENTIRE creation. So that there would be NO misunderstanding, no hemming, hawing, vacillating, & equivocating.

Did my Father "create evil"? You betcha He did. He makes neither bones nor apologies about it. Unlike us, He does not equivocate.

And as if to further cement this fact, Father uses H1254 THRICE in Genesis 1:27 wrt His creation of man, whose heart is desperately wicked and "deceitful above all things" (Jer. 17:9). H7451, the word translated "evil", occurs a whopping 663 times (Hmm. interesting number, <-that; think John 6:63, but I digress...perhaps), and its first occurrence is in Genesis 2:9 to refer to the "tree of knowledge of good and evil", which Father "made...to grow" in the midst of the Garden of Eden.

Consider this, though, just as kind of pablum for pontification: did we not know evil, how could we possibly possess the perspective to know how awesomely, wonderfully GOOD Father is? Or how necessary, and yet how positively PERFECT His plan of salvation to deliver us from it, and from our own inclination toward it?

Blessings IN Christ.

 

[AdB]

Father does not NEED anyone to defend Him. He makes no apologies for Who He is, and neither should we.

No, God doesn't need to defend Himself nor be defended by us, but He does charge us to put up a defence in order to win unbelievers for the Gospel (1 Pet 3:15, 2 Tim 4:2, 2 Cor 10:5, Tit 1:9, Col 4:6), so it's a good thing to know how too answer answers from unbelievers like the one I mentioned...

Did my Father "create evil"? You betcha He did.

Of course God ultimately is the cause that evil was "created" because He is the reason and cause for everything, but He didn't create evil as an objective thing just like He created the universe. Evil was not the direct result of an act of creation, but rather a consequence of how God had decided to create mankind, namely with a free will.
So my point is that God isn't evil Himself because He did allow for evil to be created as a consequence of how He decided to order His creation.

 

[NJAmbassador]

No, God doesn't need to defend Himself nor be defended by us, but He does charge us to put up a defence in order to win unbelievers for the Gospel (1 Pet 3:15, 2 Tim 4:2, 2 Cor 10:5, Tit 1:9, Col 4:6), so it's a good thing to know how too answer answers from unbelievers like the one I mentioned...

Amen.
"Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel." - Phil. 1:15-17

Evil was not the direct result of an act of creation, but rather a consequence of how God had decided to create mankind, namely with a free will. So my point is that God isn't evil Himself because He did allow for evil to be created as a consequence of how He decided to order His creation.

I'm not sure you're saying that I said God is evil, I'm inclined to think not, but on the off chance that someone else might read this and misunderstand, let me just quote this unequivocally for the record:

"To shew that the LORD is upright: He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him." - Ps. 92:15

As I said in my original response, Father is unequivocal in His assertion about "creating" evil in Isaiah 45:7. Nevertheless, I think it fair to say that there are nuances of meaning that can be gleaned from the definition of the word He employs in said verse, H1254.

I think it would be fair to say (and in line with your essential thesis) that Father created the conditions in which evil could exist, be conceived of, and perpetrated, but that does not mean that He Himself committed any act of evil in so doing.

Fair enough?

 

[AdB]

I think it would be fair to say (and in line with your essential thesis) that Father created the conditions in which evil could exist, be conceived of, and perpetrated, but that does not mean that He Himself committed any act of evil in so doing.

That is worded very eloquently and captures my thoughts perfectly.
In addition to that, He didn't create those conditions that allowed evil to exist because evil was His purpose in any way, but He only allowed it because it is an unavoidable requirement for free choice to exist.

Fair enough?

Absolute, amen brother!

 

[stevevw]

I don't just look at it as good and evil but more a state of consciousness and part of that is our conscience. If consciousness is fundemental them the acts of good and evil must have some effect in the world. Call it vibes or intuition but I think evil begets evil and Gods goodness, the fruits of the spirit bring good vibes.

These exist just as different particles exist such as within the atom which are required to give order and also disorder. One without the other cannot exist.

Thats why I think just as in physics every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I think the same for good and evil. The bible mentions we reap what we sow and Christ mentions whatever is in your heart is what you will become.

This is also mentioned in psychology such as the glass half full or empty outlook or our mindset is what sets us up for failure and mental illness or positive outcomes.

So evil is not just a moral concept or an epiphenomena. It comes with some sort of phenomena which blocks our receptors to the God particles so to speak which heep the order and peace.

In that sense its a fundemental aspect of reality which is bit a glimpse of Gods kingdom which will restore the balance or harmony of Gods order.

So perhaps evil or lack of goodness was inevitable as to have good there must be a possibility for there to be a lack of goodness. Like our material existence in a fallen world is necessary to establish Gods Kingdom. IT is also necessary that a lack of goodness must exist and be able to run its course of opposing good until it exhausts all possibilities and succumbs to Gods goodness.

 

[AdB]

I'm sorry to say this is a pretty muddly treatise, but you seem to be stating more or less that evil is an unavoidable part of how God created the world...

But this...

One without the other cannot exist

Comes terribly close to the unbiblical concept of jing and jang

 

[stevevw]

I'm sorry to say this is a pretty muddly treatise, but you seem to be stating more or less that evil is an unavoidable part of how God created the world...

But this...

Comes terribly close to the unbiblical concept of jing and jang

I wasn't claiming that this is how it actually is but rather attempting to explain the unexplainable in a different way to how most ethicists or philosophers would attempt to do.

Only from a metaphysical point of view. Afterall as humans we have tried to understand this aspect of reality, a theory of everything that also encompasses consciousness and subjective experiences which includes beliefs and morality.

Its a basic principle of understanding reality that our behaviour has an effect on the world. Sin has a negative effect. Its not just spiritual. When someone murders they change the reality of peoples lives. In a bigger sense this happens to society as a whole. The sins of the father bearing down on future generations.

This is because sin is not just a spiritual aspect of reality but also effects all aspects of life and the world. That being the case its understandable that at least in this realm without hate there is no love, without war and conflict there is no peace and there is no peace that surpasses all understandings in the context of world peace. Even though we cannot fully comprehend Gods peace in world terms we know it is greater than the conflict we live under.

I don't know what there is evil and we humans are limited in our understanding. But that doesn't stop us trying to work this out as intelligent and rational beings made in Gods image.

All I can say is that there is evil and God did not create evil. So evil was going to be part of the overall battle to establish Gods Kingdom and therefore regardless of how we try to explain this its part of reality that effects us spiritually, physically and psychologically in this world and we can work how certain beliefs and thinking attract negative situations that make us more prone to sinning and its coinsequences.

 

[AdB]

I wasn't claiming that this is how it actually is but rather attempting to explain the unexplainable in a different way to how most ethicists or philosophers would attempt to do.

Only from a metaphysical point of view. Afterall as humans we have tried to understand this aspect of reality, a theory of everything that also encompasses consciousness and subjective experiences which includes beliefs and morality.

Its a basic principle of understanding reality that our behaviour has an effect on the world. Sin has a negative effect. Its not just spiritual. When someone murders they change the reality of peoples lives. In a bigger sense this happens to society as a whole. The sins of the father bearing down on future generations.

This is because sin is not just a spiritual aspect of reality but also effects all aspects of life and the world. That being the case its understandable that at least in this realm without hate there is no love, without war and conflict there is no peace and there is no peace that surpasses all understandings in the context of world peace. Even though we cannot fully comprehend Gods peace in world terms we know it is greater than the conflict we live under.

I don't know what there is evil and we humans are limited in our understanding. But that doesn't stop us trying to work this out as intelligent and rational beings made in Gods image.

All I can say is that there is evil and God did not create evil. So evil was going to be part of the overall battle to establish Gods Kingdom and therefore regardless of how we try to explain this its part of reality that effects us spiritually, physically and psychologically in this world and we can work how certain beliefs and thinking attract negative situations that make us more prone to sinning and its coinsequences.

I think you missed the point from my initial point which is simply to give a simple, short, but true answer in responce to the given question from an unbeliever...