Did God create evil?

[DrBubbaLove]

Your best will never do, it is all about His Best, and that He did when He gave His Life for us and to us.
What if you die and you have an un-confessed sin, does that mean to you that you won't make it to Heaven?
And why do you have a man for a Priest, when Jesus Christ is our High Priest? I don't understand that at all.
It's like saying He's not good enough for you, you have to have someone else?

Thanks for making my point, not being able to always do what we were made to do is why we sin in the first place.
If I die and have not addressed any post Baptismal mortal sins the idea would be that I go to Hell. Having a High Priest means I also have Priest that are not as High. Otherwise there would be no need to correctly distinguish Him as the High Priest. Again, He did tell them to go and forgive sins in His Name. This they did and it is what our Priest do now. We need that Grace because we do not always do our best when it comes to doing or not doing what we know we should or should not - which means we sin. We do not have a blanket that hides our future sins from God.

He actually told them to forgive or not forgive by the way, which is another point and also a reason for having that human element act in that process rather than being a granting of blanket pardon. Our Priest just a couple of weeks ago was answering a question from my teenage Confirmation class as to whether he had ever not forgiven someone in Confession. Yes, but only once and he would never forget it.

Which then led to another person asking why, to which he immediately replied that the person indicated they had no intention of stopping, they just wanted God to forgive them for the last times they did it. That is not indicative of the sincerity required in the heart of someone approaching God to ask for forgiveness, in fact they are not sorry at all for what they did - they just want a blanket pardon and think Confession will do that for them. It doesn't. And neither would asking God for forgiveness in private prayer work if one did not really intend to stop doing whatever is being asked for forgiveness for having done.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Boy! what a way to live, to have to be conscience of sin all the time. You are not free my friend, not if this is what you are always aware of. Sounds like to me He didn't die to take away your sins, He still leaves it up to you.
I can't imagine living like that. That would be horrible, and especially the consequences it holds if I slip up and miss a sin here or there. That is not at all what Christ had in mind for you.

Am much freer than you know. No doubts caused by a stumble - was I really saved the first time. Or asking how could I do this if I was really saved the first time -must not be - need to do it again - ok Lord I say the prayer again and really mean it this time - I will get Baptized again to demonstrate that I am really saved this time. No. I am done with all that.

The consequences of "slipping up" is what should make the deacon or Pastor or Catholic Priest not do terrible things, but it does not stop any of them from being capable of slipping up. Slipping up is what Saint Peter did that night, and doing the very worst possible type of slip up a Christian could do - a mortal sin - which would have gotten him denied before God had he not been sorry and asked for God's forgiveness before he left this world - which given Jesus dialogues with him later he obviously had already done that by that point. And that story demonstrates that even Christians can mess up, even mess up very badly.

That is not a horrible existence at all. It is a realization of our fallen nature and the continuous out pouring of Love for us all that God will grant Christians that fall so badly as Saint Peter did. We don't need to be saved again and were not really "not" saved the first time. It is the despair of some of those Christians slipping up that makes Satan happy because it keeps them out of Church - at least until they "get saved" again. Catholics do the same thing avoiding Confession wrongly thinking there is nothing God can do to clean them up again.

We screw up and just like the first time He forgives all our prior sins at Baptism making us completely and actually new again, He can clean us up again in a proper Confession, made possible because He gave that authority to men so that we could approach Him and if sincere become new again and again.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

While true, He also sent men out to facilitate His being the One mediator between God and men. Do we ignore that and just think for some odd reason He granted a small part of mankind some special dispensation of having access to men to help Him be the One mediator between God and men?
Why would God give those people that very special access to His being the One mediator and not us?

 

[Meowzltov]

Really?....
Luk_23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

How does this contradict what I just said?

 

[Meowzltov]

That is your prerogative

I'm just stating the obvious fact about all human beings, including you.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I'm just stating the obvious fact about all human beings, including you.

Again, the claim does raise doubt, but in our faith we know people have indeed lived Holy as He is Holy. Do not know her personally to say one way or the other. She has been respectful and we have expressed our doubts, even suggesting the belief could be very self destructive when life happens. I think that is enough.

 

[2KnowHim]

It's ok Bubba, I'm not offended anymore by comments like that. We are to be Holy for He is Holy, and without Holiness no man shall see The Lord. The Question is How? All of our good intentions, and our works will not do it.
It must be His works through us, that's what makes us Holy.

This is the whole reason why Christ died or rather rose again, He knew we couldn't be without His Spirit.
His Spirit is The Spirit Holy. Those that are led by The Spirit of God, they are The Sons of God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It's ok Bubba, I'm not offended anymore by comments like that. We are to be Holy for He is Holy, and without Holiness no man shall see The Lord. The Question is How? All of our good intentions, and our works will not do it.
It must be His works through us, that's what makes us Holy.

This is the whole reason why Christ died or rather rose again, He knew we couldn't be without His Spirit.
His Spirit is The Spirit Holy. Those that are led by The Spirit of God, they are The Sons of God.

Well these are rather my points. A Pastor, deacon or Priest that has dedicated their life to serving to guide others to Him are clearly proclaiming they desire to be Holy as He is Holy. When such a person messes up, even as badly as Saint Peter did - they can no longer claim to be Holy at that moment. It does not mean they were not Holy before. And just like Saint Peter, it does not mean they cannot be Holy again. It simply means they are human and all our current human natures are weak. It is not the way things aught to be, but it is the way things are right now. Adam was not created that way, but became so when he sinned. That sin brought on the corruption of his nature, which we inherit from him. We cannot help it. Which is why we need His Grace to help not do it. Which is why we speak of Mary needing a supernatural Grace to both be born without that corrupted nature and to remain that way - Holy as He is Holy.

Can someone be given sufficient Grace to maintain Holiness in this life? Absolutely and the Catholic faith includes multiple examples of just such people. Is it common for all Christians to remain in a state of Holiness? Absolutely not. Which is why Saint John is depicted reminding Christians (his beloved) to confess their sins and be especially wary about mortal sins. There would be no need to remind Christians of this if they had already received a blanket pardon for all future sins or were incapable of committing sins.

Sin comes in degrees and we can harden our hearts, our conscience to even the slightest transgressions (or the worst for that matter) - but all sin is still sin and needs to be reconciled with God. This includes are sinful thoughts, thinking about what we know we aught not think about.

 

[2KnowHim]

All sin was and is Reconciled to God by The Sacrifice of His Son. Jesus when He spoke of our thoughts, was telling us We Cannot control such things, that's why He paid the price for All sin, The Sin of The World.

Don't you realize that if you still have a conscience towards sin then you are under Law and not Grace? For by the law IS The Knowledge of Sin, and if you think you still sin, then you are not walking in The Faith, because what is not of Faith is Sin.
Believing that Christ paid the wages of Sin, which is Death, His own life, is having faith that He did what we could not.
Again it's not about us and what we can do, but it's is about Him and what He has Done and believing into that.

 

[FredVB]

The claim that only tradition supports such an exception for Mary is false clearly as the Bible indicates other exceptions for specific individuals and an application of Grace on those specific individuals as well. So it would not just be Mary that received a special exception in that regard.

She needed the Redeemer, and there are all sin and fall short of God with his glory, and there are no exceptions among humanity, other than Christ, who is God.

I think the history of the early Church clearly refutes the notion that there was enough explicit detail in Scriptures to allow someone put the Trinity Doctrine to pen. If that were true the Doctrine (which is a revealed Truth) was explicit in Scripture, then they would not have spent several hundred years having to write it down in a way that refutes all the misunderstandings that arose regarding His Nature, the Nature and nature of Jesus,...etc. So we will have to disagree that the Trinity is not an example of a revealed Truth that the Church teaches and many Protestant faiths have not rejected. The fact some Protestant faiths have rejected that Doctrine and yet remain Christian supporting Scripture sort of refutes the idea there "is enough scripture passages for it". Obviously not true there is enough, IOW. I think having Scripture to support various aspects of the Trinity Doctrine still does not mean Scripture alone is sufficient for deriving it.

I don't say anything for doctrine about the trinity of God other than these points that are shown from the Bible, so scriptures are enough, for this trinity of God that I mean. There is enough scripture passages for it, without the term for it which developed later.

Yahweh is the one and only God, the one Supreme Being. The Father as revealed with what Christ showed and said is this God, Yahweh. A good number of passages show that Jesus Christ, the incarnation of Logos the Word with God who is God, as the Son of God, is this God Yahweh. The Spirit of God is shown to be God and, in unity with the heavenly Father and Logos the Word who came as the Son, as one in being, is Yahweh God. Yahweh is one in being though as these three that are in fully unified relationship with total agreement and without contradicting each other in any way.

Jesus spoke of the heavenly Father with revealing things about him. But he never approved of traditions from the leaders that were not based on what was really said from something Yahweh had said.

All sin was and is Reconciled to God by The Sacrifice of His Son. Jesus when He spoke of our thoughts, was telling us We Cannot control such things, that's why He paid the price for All sin, The Sin of The World.

Don't you realize that if you still have a conscience towards sin then you are under Law and not Grace? For by the law IS The Knowledge of Sin, and if you think you still sin, then you are not walking in The Faith, because what is not of Faith is Sin.
Believing that Christ paid the wages of Sin, which is Death, His own life, is having faith that He did what we could not.
Again it's not about us and what we can do, but it's is about Him and what He has Done and believing into that.

The way is very narrow and many never come to it, and perish, going to everlasting torment. This is not reconciliation for all, it is for those who come in faith to Christ, those who are redeemed.

 

[2KnowHim]

The way is very narrow and many never come to it, and perish, going to everlasting torment. This is not reconciliation for all, it is for those who come in faith to Christ, those who are redeemed.

The wages of sin is death......Not eternal torment.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

All sin was and is Reconciled to God by The Sacrifice of His Son. Jesus when He spoke of our thoughts, was telling us We Cannot control such things, that's why He paid the price for All sin, The Sin of The World.

Don't you realize that if you still have a conscience towards sin then you are under Law and not Grace? For by the law IS The Knowledge of Sin, and if you think you still sin, then you are not walking in The Faith, because what is not of Faith is Sin.
Believing that Christ paid the wages of Sin, which is Death, His own life, is having faith that He did what we could not.
Again it's not about us and what we can do, but it's is about Him and what He has Done and believing into that.

All sin can be reconciled to God by what His Son did, and more specifically the act of that Man, His act of Love for us all is much more pleasing to God that the displeasure caused by total summation of all the sins of mankind - which makes restoring the balance for each of us individually possible - rather than seeing as a blanket one time pardon for everyone. So He did pay the price and He did give us a way to clean ourselves up before God. But that clean up does not obliterate our freewill which is what allowed us to get in this state in the first place. So we can still sin and most do. Certainly and hopefully not to the same degree before being "saved" but all sin is abhorrent to God and must be addressed.

Am still unclear whether you consider thoughts sins, but most of us do and we should. We should also distinguish between temptations and sin. A fleeting thought which we may indeed be unable to control is a temptation. Dwelling on that thought makes it a sin. And yes I think most of us do that regularly which is why Saint James could talk to Christians about their sins and also distinguishing levels of sin. The fleeting thought "look how good I am" would be one such temptation, and the foolish pride expressed by Saint Peter that he could never fail Jesus (because he saw himself too good to do that) was a sin in his mind even before he expressed it. That sin of pride in his mind was probably still not as bad as what he did early the next morning. He thought himself incapable of doing that horrible sin. He was wrong that he could not sin so badly and I am sure because he thought himself incapable, the disappointment in his self and resulting despair at having done just that was very difficult for him to bear.

No, it does not mean I live with the idea it is OK for me to sin. And that was point about evil thoughts - it is NOT OK. And just like the man our Priest refused to forgive in Confession (did I tell that story in this thread???) I cannot live how ever I please and believe that God must forgive me for what I have done in Confession if I have no intention of not doing it again.

 

[Chriliman]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

I believe the simple answer is that God created perfect beings(angels and man) and gave them free will to choose to listen to Himself(good) or not(evil/sin).

When a perfect created being chooses something other than God(good), evil is conceived in the mind/heart of the created being, rendering them perfectly imperfect(lucifer>satan - angels>demons and Adam/Eve > man's fallen state).

Only God himself is capable of restoring the relationship if He so chooses and He has done so through Jesus Christ. This grace extends to all men(if we accept it with our heart, soul and mind), not satan or demons because Jesus is 100% God and was 100% man, he was never an angel.

Angels are far more powerful than man, which is why those that went against God are doomed for destruction. Be glad you are a human being and not a demon or especially satan, who is completely corrupted by pride and thinks he can foil God's plans.

Let me know if this makes sense to everyone

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I believe the simple answer is that God created perfect beings(angels and man) and gave them free will to choose to listen to Himself(good) or not(evil/sin).

When a perfect created being chooses something other than God(good), evil is conceived in the mind/heart of the created being, rendering them perfectly imperfect(lucifer>satan - angels>demons and Adam/Eve > man's fallen state).

Only God himself is capable of restoring the relationship if He so chooses and He has done so through Jesus Christ. This grace extends to all men(if we accept it with our heart, soul and mind), not satan or demons because Jesus is 100% God and was 100% man, he was never an angel.

Angels are far more powerful than man, which is why those that went against God are doomed for destruction. Be glad you are a human being and not a demon or especially satan, who is completely corrupted by pride and thinks he can foil God's plans.

Let me know if this makes sense to everyone

Perfect sense to me. Though I am certain many here in this section of the forums will disagree.

Am unclear on the details of angels myself, but I do agree it is different in their case from mankind as the immediate judgement of those few who freely chose wrongly is shown as irreversible. I have read several explanations as to why that is so with the angels, but cannot even summarize those thoughts at the moment.

 

[ewq1938]

The wages of sin is death......Not eternal torment.

Correct. What is written is everlasting punishment, and the punishment being death (the second death) is an everlasting dearth as opposed to the opposite of everlasting life.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Correct. What is written is everlasting punishment, and the punishment being death (the second death) is an everlasting dearth as opposed to the opposite of everlasting life.

Not for my thread to devolve into another UR debate, but keep in mind the idea that death being the opposite of life is or at least can be a separate concept from asking whether a thing exists or not.

For example we can see video of what remains of the Titanic. As a ship we could clearly see it can no longer serve the purpose for which it was made/created. So we could use language about it's state such as a ship that is "utterly destroyed", "dead", "no more", and even "annihilated", yet the form of it still exists in a similar manner of speaking. If a ship had feelings we could speak of that ship being in torment about it's current state, even bemoaning the fact it has no purpose now (at least not the one it was made for).
The eternal fate of the damned can be looked at similarly. It is fate of their choosing, not God's. So any anguish they experience because of their choice can only be faulted to themselves - not God. To come back to this thread topic a little, God did not create mankind evil. We made that choice ourselves. God gave us an escape from the consequences of that choice, but He does not force us to accept that free gift of His Love. Those already in and those that will be in that eternal state of the damned refused that gift during this life, and He has left them eternally to the consequence of that choice. The pain and suffering the damned experience eternally is simply an extension, a continuation of the pain and suffering their choices caused in this life.

 

[ewq1938]

For example we can see video of what remains of the Titanic. As a ship we could clearly see it can no longer serve the purpose for which it was made/created. So we could use language about it's state such as a ship that is "utterly destroyed", "dead", "no more", and even "annihilated", yet the form of it still exists in a similar manner of speaking. If a ship had feelings we could speak of that ship being in torment about it's current state, even bemoaning the fact it has no purpose now (at least not the one it was made for).

Except get rid of the water idea and place it in eternal fire, then it does literal end up destroyed not just "ruined". That is the fate of the unsaved. They will be destroyed fully not partially.

The eternal fate of the damned can be looked at similarly. It is fate of their choosing, not God's. So any anguish they experience because of their choice can only be faulted to themselves - not God. To come back to this thread topic a little, God did not create mankind evil. We made that choice ourselves.

Yes and we are also not created with sin either. We choose to sin in one form or another.

God gave us an escape from the consequences of that choice, but He does not force us to accept that free gift of His Love. Those already in and those that will be in that eternal state of the damned refused that gift during this life, and He has left them eternally to the consequence of that choice. The pain and suffering the damned experience eternally is simply an extension, a continuation of the pain and suffering their choices caused in this life.

Eternal life is granted only to overcomers. The damned will die and be destroyed forever, not live forever.

The wicked do not receive eternal life in hell fire:


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalm 37:35,36

He isn't found! Not "put into hell to be tormented for eternity". Scripture clearly shows the wicked being destroyed.

The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20), and that judgement (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).




Two things happen to the wicked. First they will die the second death which means soul and body dies and then their soul and body shall be destroyed.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Except get rid of the water idea and place it in eternal fire, then it does literal end up destroyed not just "ruined". That is the fate of the unsaved. They will be destroyed fully not partially.




Yes and we are also not created with sin either. We choose to sin in one form or another.



Eternal life is granted only to overcomers. The damned will die and be destroyed forever, not live forever.

The wicked do not receive eternal life in hell fire:


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalm 37:35,36

He isn't found! Not "put into hell to be tormented for eternity". Scripture clearly shows the wicked being destroyed.

The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20), and that judgement (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).




Two things happen to the wicked. First they will die the second death which means soul and body dies and then their soul and body shall be destroyed.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Eternal fire and worms that never die are symbols. The concepts are raw and very easy for a human to relate to as something very undesirable. But it does beg a question of why God would inspire us to believe a place exists eternally for the purpose of making everything that goes there cease to exist. It could simply be fire and worms. God would have no need to state there is something eternal that would eventually cease to serve it's purpose - yet that is exactly what many here are suggesting. And it is similar to the nonsensical notion that God would create sentient beings to share in His eternal Happiness only to have those person cease to exist when they die.

My point is there is no need to require words and phrases like utterly destroyed, total destruction, death, dead to mean cease to exist when we do not even typically speak that way when we use those same expressions when talking about other things. So why require it when speaking of people dying or in speaking of the fate of the damned?

And even if one does not believe in eternal damnation of eternally aware people, it would not be possible to compare that state with what any one conceives as "eternal life". If an eternity in Hell is any ones idea of "eternal life", then like Saint Paul says about the Resurrection, am unclear why such Christians would bother, just party on. The orthodox view does have the damned in Hell and aware eternally, with all the damned eventually being there with both a body and a soul eternally (because that is the just end for such a human and He made humans with a human body and a human soul). The opposing fate is eternal life - which was never just the notion of escaping ceasing to exist - at least not in the orthodox view of the afterlife.

A proper eternal life for a human could only mean sharing eternally with His Happiness. So it is not possible whether one agrees with a person existing in eternal damnation or not, to see such an existence as Eternal Life - it could only be the opposite of that.

It all goes back to claiming God has made us all for the same purpose. Which if we attack the dignity of our human nature by saying God would allow us to cease to exist, that undermines what we should claim is the purpose for our existence and calls to question God's motive for making us in the first place. So this is not just fluff or words or stubborn blindness. It is just me pointing out that it is not enough to just say we do not like some aspect of our reality and desire to repaint part of it to make it (and God) more appealing to us. Such notions have a ripple effect on many other elements of our faith.

That God is Good, that He created men and angels to share in His Eternal Happiness, and our purpose for existing is love, know and serve Him - those are just a few of the things under attack here by simply saying I don't like the idea that the damned would be in torment eternally and refuse to accept God would allow that or something like God creates everything so He must have created evil. And that undermining of our faith/beliefs is why such things are destructive to Christian faith and have earned the label of heresy for Christians to hold/promote.

 

[ewq1938]

Eternal fire and worms that never die are symbols. The concepts are raw and very easy for a human to relate to as something very undesirable. But it does beg a question of why God would inspire us to believe a place exists eternally for the purpose of making everything that goes there cease to exist.

It relays the concept that there is no return from that fate.

It could simply be fire and worms. God would have no need to state there is something eternal that would eventually cease to serve it's purpose - yet that is exactly what many here are suggesting. And it is similar to the nonsensical notion that God would create sentient beings to share in His eternal Happiness only to have those person cease to exist when they die.

It's only non-sensical to imply the fire cannot do it's job of destroying which is the commonly understood purpose of fire. Besides the wording used proves this:

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

That leaves no room for any to not consume away.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Both verses are in perfect harmony in my interpretation but yours presents a contradiction.

My point is there is no need to require words and phrases like utterly destroyed, total destruction, death, dead to mean cease to exist when we do not even typically speak that way when we use those same expressions when talking about other things.

The point falls apart when we introduce the analogy of fire consuming the wicked away like smoke. A wineskin with a hole just doesn't hold up. Toss that wineskin into a fire and the concept of annihilation becomes quite clear.

So why require it when speaking of people dying or in speaking of the fate of the damned?

See the verse in Psalms for the answer.

And even if one does not believe in eternal damnation of eternally aware people, it would not be possible to compare that state with what any one conceives as "eternal life". If an eternity in Hell is any ones idea of "eternal life", then like Saint Paul says about the Resurrection, am unclear why such Christians would bother, just party on.

Like it or not, you are promoting eternal life for the unsaved when scripture always presents eternal life as the opposite that the unsaved receive.

The orthodox view does have the damned in Hell and aware eternally, with all the damned eventually being there with both a body and a soul eternally (because that is the just end for such a human and He made humans with a human body and a human soul). The opposing fate is eternal life - which was never just the notion of escaping ceasing to exist - at least not in the orthodox view of the afterlife.

This belief is simply not scriptural. It was once Orthodox to believe the Earth was flat etc...Orthodox means "believed a long time" not "is definitely true"

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It relays the concept that there is no return from that fate.



It's only non-sensical to imply the fire cannot do it's job of destroying which is the commonly understood purpose of fire. Besides the wording used proves this:

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

That leaves no room for any to not consume away.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Both verses are in perfect harmony in my interpretation but yours presents a contradiction.




The point falls apart when we introduce the analogy of fire consuming the wicked away like smoke. A wineskin with a hole just doesn't hold up. Toss that wineskin into a fire and the concept of annihilation becomes quite clear.





See the verse in Psalms for the answer.




Like it or not, you are promoting eternal life for the unsaved when scripture always presents eternal life as the opposite that the unsaved receive.




This belief is simply not scriptural. It was once Orthodox to believe the Earth was flat etc...Orthodox means "believed a long time" not "is definitely true"

No return does not have to equal cease to exist. And the fate is indeed total destruction, utter death and literally being "no more" for a creature that was meant for the opposite fate. A terrible place indeed.

The nonsensical does not evolve from a lack of ability, it is from God creating something with a useless feature. A "fire" that never goes out and a "worm" that never dies, whatever those things represent, have an eternal quality that if it were true that eventually nothing remains of the damned is a quality that was not necessary. IOW God only need to create a "fire" and a "worm" that would last exactly long enough to serve its purpose and no longer.

And the concept of something created good and made to know, love and serve Good having all Good removed from its presence leaves that thing utterly useless - which would totally destroy any real or potential for a meaningful existence. Having sentient being in such a state is hardly the picture of flourishing. In fact so quite the opposite that that person would be transformed by the torment of being in that state, so we could indeed say the person they were is "no more" and what is left as CS Lewis described it is just "what remains". And that is also an analogous to what remains in a fire of a log that burns completely-ash. So the use of fire consuming a damned person need not be presumed to mean "nothing remains". And since the orthodox view holds exactly that - there is complete congruence with ALL Scripture to that regard.

I would not call the existence I just described as equal to the promise God made to us all before His Ascension. If any Christian thought such an existence was equal to Heaven, am unclear why they would want to go to such a place. So claim the orthodox life has the damned getting "eternal life" is not just false, it is absurd.

Orthodox in this discussion meant an accepted non-heretical view of Hell, but thanks for playing.