Did God create evil?

[DrBubbaLove]

I think both views as just expressed are wrong, with the last being perhaps a greater error as it suggests God would hold someone accountable for something for which they lacked the mental capacity to know it was wrong and none of us would accept that as a just judge and should not accept that notion for the Judge or any concept of what it means to say God is Just.

They knew they had done wrong and knew what they were considering doing was wrong before they did it. Eve's dialogue clearly indicated she knew it was wrong before she did. As it was their first sin, it opened their eyes to the thought and the wrongful pride from it that they rather than God could decide for themselves what they could or could not do. Such thoughts would not have occurred to them before it was planted in their heads by Satan. And the situation was not that there was nothing they could do which would have been wrong - but that with soul and body both in perfect alignment with God - they would not choose to do what they knew to be wrong. Once they made that choice, the harmony of the soul and body is irreparably damaged

And that thought extends to every aspect of their lives including their (our) sexuality - so sin instantly corrupts each aspect of human life primarily through our willful and foolish pride. So what was formerly only a good thing, can now be viewed in skewed ways - everything has a purpose as it was originally made but now in pride we get to say what purpose any given thing serves for us. So in their foolish pride and the "opening" of their eyes, their nakedness becomes an embarrassment, so they attempted to hide their bodies. So the ignorance mentioned in the story is not one of "not knowing" something wrong, but rather ignorance of an wrong act - as in having no experience in doing something wrong.

 

[Yeholiver]

Yahweh defines what is evil in my self reflection.....

You mean in Prayer. The torah also explains things, you cannot just rely on prayer, god gave his teaching for a reason- to teach you Both together is better.

 

[2KnowHim]

The only thing in Scripture that carries the weight of Condemnation and Death, which Adam experienced... is "The Law".

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

Try telling a child about the issues of life and death, they would not understand, oh they would here the words, "don't do this or do that", but it's just words it wouldn't cause someone to understand until they partake of it, until they "KNOW".
Experiencing something is the way we grow and come to understanding. Adam was not prepared/of full age mentally to partake of it, he was carnal. As with all of us, when we first come to read the word, it condemns us it tricks us, and even deceives us into thinking it can bring us Life, but in actuality, ...it kills us, as it did with Adam.
But even that is Necessary, to come to the end of self.
Joh_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The only thing in Scripture that carries the weight of Condemnation and Death, which Adam experienced... is "The Law".

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

Try telling a child about the issues of life and death, they would not understand, oh they would here the words, "don't do this or do that", but it's just words it wouldn't cause someone to understand until they partake of it, until they "KNOW".
Experiencing something is the way we grow and come to understanding. Adam was not prepared/of full age mentally to partake of it, he was carnal. As with all of us, when we first come to read the word, it condemns us it tricks us, and even deceives us into thinking it can bring us Life, but in actuality, ...it kills us, as it did with Adam.
But even that is Necessary, to come to the end of self.
Joh_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The woman pictured defending what she knew to be wrong against Satan lies, before allowing him to mind trick her, is not presented as being like a "child". She knew it was wrong and is quoted as saying as much. A child may not be mentally capable of understanding, but Eve's defense to the devils initial attempts are not the expressions of child or someone who is "not of full mental age."

Nor could we view as Just the severe punishment administered for choosing to do this wrong if the people committing it were truly "not of full mental age" to be able to understand that it was indeed wrong.

 

[stevenfrancis]

God created Angels (and man). A fallen angel tempted man, and man fell as well. God is love, and God is perfect. Evil sprang from fallen creatures, (angels and men), as a result of free will. So no....God did not "create" evil. It exists, but is not a part of the creation. It is a byproduct due to creatures.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

God created Angels (and man). A fallen angel tempted man, and man fell as well. God is love, and God is perfect. Evil sprang from fallen creatures, (angels and men), as a result of free will. So no....God did not "create" evil. It exists, but is not a part of the creation. It is a byproduct due to creatures.

Indeed and well said. It is also a byproduct that God would both know could happen and knew exactly which individuals would do it (from first to all of us today). In creating us He allows both the potential for and the reality of evil, including the suffering that results from it.

 

[jugghead]

They knew they had done wrong and knew what they were considering doing was wrong before they did it.

And this makes no sense whatsoever ..... if they did not know that they did wrong until after they ate ..... how could they know it was wrong before they ate?

And what 2knowhim said is right, the knowledge of good and evil, what is right and what is wrong is all contained within the law

 

[Yeholiver]

And this makes no sense whatsoever ..... if they did not know that they did wrong until after they ate ..... how could they know it was wrong before they ate?

They didn´t know, knowledge of good and evil is what the fruit gave them. It was not listening to God that was their sin.

 

[ewq1938]

And this makes no sense whatsoever ..... if they did not know that they did wrong until after they ate ..... how could they know it was wrong before they ate?

And what 2knowhim said is right, the knowledge of good and evil, what is right and what is wrong is all contained within the law

Actually Eve was deceived so she didn't understand what she was doing but Adam sinned without being deceived.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And this makes no sense whatsoever ..... if they did not know that they did wrong until after they ate ..... how could they know it was wrong before they ate?

And what 2knowhim said is right, the knowledge of good and evil, what is right and what is wrong is all contained within the law

The law given to Israel and the law He wrote on every man's heart are from the same source - but having both is not required for person to "know" what is wrong. And the whole point of saying God mades us to KNOW, love and serve Good sort of requires we were given that "law in hearts" by our Maker - by which God is then able to righteously and with Just judge each one of us regardless of when or where we lived. Many indigenous people all over the world have lived and died without ever knowing the "written" law or the message of the Gospel. Yet God can judge them as easily as He does the rest of us because He made us all to "know, love and serve Good" and it would make no sense to suggest we could love and serve something we had no knowledge of - much less be Judged in our ignorance of it.

We are not ignorant because He did not make us that way. Besides to claim otherwise would mean God needed Adam to do evil in order for Adam to then love, know and serve Him - which makes even less sense - never mind holding Adam accountable for doing something he had no idea was wrong - at least the woman knew that much (yet Adam gets the blame).

What makes no sense in this thread would be people posting that a person arguing that something is wrong for that person to do BEFORE they have ever done it has no clue that to do it is wrong.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Actually Eve was deceived so she didn't understand what she was doing but Adam sinned without being deceived.

She was not deceived about the act being wrong. NO, not at all. In fact she explained rather succinctly that it would be wrong for them to eat and what would happen if they did eat it. She was tricked into thinking it was not really wrong, which was a lie - as was the deception offered about why they had been told it wrong by God - and what would really happen. Satan basically convinced Eve that it was not really wrong, God just told you that to keep something "good" from you. So wrong act/deed becomes a "percieved good" in our minds - which is why we then sin and why she did it. All lies, from the father of lies. Eve bought those lies - which is why it is said she was tricked. Eve could not have been said to be tricked if she ignorant that what she was about to do was wrong. And she could not have said they could not do it if she did not know it was wrong for them to do so. She is deceived because she goes from saying she knew it was wrong to convincing herself - in her mind - that it was actually a thing to be desired (perceived good).

In fact the story pretty much says they were told they could eat everything that grew, but not that, and that they would die the day they did - which is what Eve told Satan - though she embellished with "don't touch it" - but the concept of touch suggests desire - so the point is still made - it was not meant for them to eat - which means it would be wrong for them to eat. To suggest Eve could mime God in say "or else we die" yet somehow remained ignorant that it would be wrong to do so is absurd. Nothing in the story suggests such "child like innocence" for which the whole nakedness thing appears to be the only thing people making such a claim can cling to. As that response and their actions before/after can easily be explained by foolish pride, there is no need to view their naked state as representing lacking "full mental capacity".

In other words if we were not sinners and lacked this tendency to sin (fallen state), there would be no embarrassment in being naked. It is the same thought process that led the author of "Travelors Guide to Heaven" to postulate sex with anyone would be ok there - but that is another topic.

 

[ewq1938]

She was not deceived about the act being wrong.

Yes she was. Satan deceived her into thinking it was not wrong.

 

[2KnowHim]

Nor could we view as Just the severe punishment administered for choosing to do this wrong if the people committing it were truly "not of full mental age" to be able to understand that it was indeed wrong.

So you see the results of what Adam did (Death) as punishment from God for disobeying Him? I knew you were confused I just didn't know how bad until now, no wonder you see God as a tormenting God.
God told Adam the outcome of his disobedience, and what would take place if he was to eat and after. God didn't do it to him, He wasn't punishing Adam and Eve, He was simply telling them the outcome of it all.
And just because Eve quoted something that God had said, doesn't mean she understood what He meant. Just like many today.

 

[2KnowHim]

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

This is further proof that Adam did not have the Serpent to trick/deceive him, so can't blame a falling Angel on where evil came from now can you? Where was Eve when the command was given to Adam not to Eat?
This is another lesson on getting the word from another source "second hand" rather than from God Himself.

 

[2KnowHim]

Dr. Bubba,
You should really do a study on the word "Naked and Nakedness" in Scripture, if you did you would find that it means ...not having His Righteousness..
Oh but wait, you don't study scripture do you, sorry I forgot you said you couldn't understand it lest someone teach you...sorry my bad.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes she was. Satan deceived her into thinking it was not wrong.

We agree she was tricked, but to be tricked in this case means she first had to KNOW it was wrong - which was the point I was trying to make against those saying things like they were not "fully mentally mature" enough to know better.
Which means she KNEW it was wrong before he tricked her - otherwise there would be no need for him to attempt to twist a wrong into a perceived right.

 

[2KnowHim]

If she Knew it was wrong before she partook, the serpent would not have been able to deceive her.
Those who Know the Truth cannot be deceived.

Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So you see the results of what Adam did (Death) as punishment from God for disobeying Him? I knew you were confused I just didn't know how bad until now, no wonder you see God as a tormenting God.
God told Adam the outcome of his disobedience, and what would take place if he was to eat and after. God didn't do it to him, He wasn't punishing Adam and Eve, He was simply telling them the outcome of it all.
And just because Eve quoted something that God had said, doesn't mean she understood what He meant. Just like many today.

Yes, I happen to believe when God said the day they did that they would die, that He actually meant that and what resulted is very much a punishment for what they had done. By Adam's choice he totally destroyed (death) the relationship they had with God and the punishment was immediate.

So now the suggestion is that besides being not of full mental age, the suggestion appears to be that God had nothing to do with "outcome", He just let it happen to them. Interesting. So in this view did the Satan create/make/do the pain and suffering that was part of the outcome - child labor for instance?

God was the One Adam offended by his sin, why should we think that offense would go unpunished by a God most of say is Just?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dr. Bubba,
You should really do a study on the word "Naked and Nakedness" in Scripture, if you did you would find that it means ...not having His Righteousness..
Oh but wait, you don't study scripture do you, sorry I forgot you said you couldn't understand it lest someone teach you...sorry my bad.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

A person Scripture would know that no where in it does it say pick me up and read me yourself and you will understand. In fact it very plainly says the very opposite - that we need someone to explain it to us. Which is why God is depicted not as telling His Apostles to go and hand out tracts, but to go and TEACH. The last I heard teaching is generally best done when guided by......another person.
We are not generally naked in public now and it is generally not acceptable because we have a fallen nature. There would be no pride to get in the way and result in the shame/embarrassment of being naked if we did not have this nature. Adam and Eve did not have that nature before they sinned because God did not create evil, He made perfection. In a human that means body and soul in perfect alignment with each other and with God - which means no pride.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If she Knew it was wrong before she partook, the serpent would not have been able to deceive her.
Those who Know the Truth cannot be deceived.

Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Then why do we still sin?