Did God create evil?

[2KnowHim]

Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Job 38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
Job 38:38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
Job 38:39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Job 39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?
Job 39:2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?
Job 39:3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.
Job 39:4 Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.
Job 39:5 Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?
Job 39:6 Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.
Job 39:7 He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver.
Job 39:8 The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.
Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
Job 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
Job 39:11 Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?
Job 39:12 Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?
Job 39:13 Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?
Job 39:14 Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,
Job 39:15 And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.
Job 39:16 She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear;
Job 39:17 Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.

This goes on for two more chapters, after reading these things, do you really believe that we have free will? or a choice?
If you do, you are mistaken.

Job's bottom line after all this was.........
Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Concerning man's choice or free will as most call it, ....You have not read or took to heart what He said to Job have you?

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
Job 38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
Job 38:19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
Job 38:20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
Job 38:21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
Job 38:25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
Job 38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
Job 38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Man either has a choice and IS responsible for the evil he does and thus needs to CHOOSE (with God's help) to accept God as his savior or the Gospel is meaningless and unneeded if man isn't responsible then God is and making man choose for God's fault is evil in itself.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I have said all along God is Good, and because He is Good, then the opposite of that which is Evil would exist.
For God knew Evil long before any of us did, and that includes the angels. As I have stated many times Dr. if Paul found a law that when he would choose to do good evil was present with him, then I'm sure God knew this way before Paul did.

If God sees the End from the Beginning, which He does Isa,46:10 then inspite the fact that all of creation would be subject to this law too, He also supplied us with The Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.
That means He also did away with evil through that lamb once and for all. Way Before it ever began. This can be seen in Gen.1:26 & 27 God's End is always better than His beginning. He saves the best for last.

Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.


God takes responsibility for the evil that would come about because He chose to Create, He did this through His Son.
And I have no problem at all with this, because we look on things not seen, instead of things that are seen.

I'm an Artist, I love to create beautiful paintings, but before I start, the creation takes place within me, in my "mind's eye" so to speak. And as long as it stays there, it is Perfect, but once I put brush to canvas and begin to bring that image out of myself, now it becomes exposed to the elements around it. It can also be something that can cause controversy, be subject to decay, sunlight, etc. etc.........Unless it's Sealed..... Even though I want to share my gift, I still know the things that can happen to it once it comes forth. And for this it makes me sad, sometimes even makes me wish that I never created it to begin with when I see someone take it for granted or treat it as if it didn't matter. But, that doesn't stop me from doing it, because it's who I am.

It didn't stop God either, unlike me, God has had a plan Through His Holy Spirit to Seal us unto the Day of Redemption.
God took responsibility for All Evil, When He sent forth His Son for us All. He paid the price for His Creation with His own Life, so that His Masterpiece would be saved.

We should never let the process interfere with seeing The Purpose, in The End it is All Good, Very Good.

As I said in the thread where this originally came up, there is nothing contrary to God's Perfect Omniscience or Knowledge in saying He DID NOT directly cause evil to be a reality. So the idea of God being surprised at Satan and the angels who followed him OR Adam's actions is a false accusation and distraction from this discussion.

I ask we restrict our discussion here to the creation of man and angels and there resulting deeds, in order to avoid over complicating the discussion by throwing in God's immediate judgement of what Adam had done to create the obvious natural evils of this world, which He allows to cause great suffering. That suffering is an evil which most of us attribute to Adam as a direct result of the Fall - man's first sin. We should also focus on whether something is a direct cause or indirect and restrict the conversation more, again to keep it simple, to direct cause. After all, we must acknowledge God created everything that is and therefore can correctly said to be the (first) cause of everything, because without Him there would be simply nothing. I do not look at that however as saying God "created" evil simply because He made evil a possibility. The fact not angels rebelled indicates that when making free-will creatures, evil is not a certainty. So the orthodox view is that as He originally first made this world, evil was only a potential. A potential that only became a reality first when Satan did what he did, then even more so when Satan helped Adam do what He did. We would all agree that certainly God knew in creating angels and mankind as He did that evil was a potential that was just one of many possible paths of which He knows ALL, and knowing before hand that it would happen - He would also know what He intended to do about it.

So the question is not whether God knew evil would come into this world, not whether He knew Adam would sin or not did He had a plan to fix it - for the answer to those for all of us is absolutely YES. The question is whether He directly made evil. Someone else has already pointed out that most of us see evil as the absence of Good and that it could be relative - as in more or less Good or even we imagine no good at all - with God Himself at the opposite, infinite end. In that concept of evil it could only be said that God could make something less good than He could have made it - or a little evil if you will. And that is essentially the position I see Hillsage and others like 2knowHim taking in their view of the Creation story which is taken to help support the UR view of our eternal fates. God is said to be "sowing" imperfect seeds (beginning with Adam) that will all one day become eventually (even if from Hell) perfect.

I may have to correct this assumption as I see you have made more replies.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Short answer-no
Long answer-no no no no and triple no

So in closing no God did not create evil!

The Orthodox view is that God is pure love, but the one thing God cannot force us to do is to accept his love and love him in return - if He could, it would not be love, but coerced adulation.

If one turns against God's love and moves away from God, one embraces evil. And when we rurn against God, the uncreated energies of love, which are normally experienced as love, instead are experienced as wrath; God is a consumimg fire in which those who reject his love will burn, not because He ultimately desires it, but because the rejection of all good things, of creation itself, defiles one and can separate one from this divine love eternally, causing one to be resurrected not unto everlasting life but torment. This is why we must repent (the Greek metanoia literally suggests a change of direction; we must turn to accept the uncreated energy of God and reciprocate His love, experiencing the divine bliss this produces).

However, Satan, who was the first to reject the love of God, and who rejected it to the most extreme extent possible, continually tempts us with worldy passions, making this change of direction harder. God permits this, so that the voluntary nature of our choice is more apparent, and that our faith might be tried in the fire; Christ is the supreme Physician, and by allowing us to be tempted, ensures that we have the opportunity to progressively rid ourselves of the diseases of sin, through the grace of the Holy Spirit conferred individually and sacramentally in His Church, so that we might be able to properly respond to the purity of God's love and be resurrected into the sinless, blissful state of eternal life at the Day of Judgement.

So in short, good is moving towards and embracing divine love, cooperating with the uncreated energies of God, whereas evil is spurning divine love, which one can be tricked into doing by the demons, posing as deities and subjecting us to temptations and false spiritual experiences in order to lead us to destruction. The devil and demons, and a few deranged humans, have become so twisted by the sickness that results from the rejection of divine love that evil in and of itself gives them pleasure, and this motivates them to attack us, that they may have their pound of flesh as it were. And thus people like the jihadis of ISIL are deceived into believing they are worshipping God by burning people alive in cages, torturing and killimg Christians amd Yazidis, and so on.

It should also be stressed that the omniscience of God is irrelevant to this debate, because omnipotence trumps omniscience; yes, God can know whether or not we will choose to love him, but he can also give us the choice on our own. But it is reasonable that he does allow himself the knowledge of the ending of things, and based on this, being infinitely good, has selected the best path, according to criteria of virtue and moral perfection that transcend human comprehension (not some mere divine Utilitarianism). However, we still posess effective free will, being finite beings of limited knowledge, and thus the choice to humbly turn to our loving Father or instead plot against our brothers and sisters and devise ways of harming them for our benefit, is ours to make.

I think one issue is how Adam as created in the image of God would be flawed with the inclusion of evil. It does help ones argument if this is so that Adam was flawed to begin with that would make God totally responsible for any actions Adam had (sin) because Adam's nature was that of sin (evil) to begin with. I think the huge stumbling block to such thinking lies in the face of the evidence that God himself throughout the Bible and New Testament equates man himself must strive to "not sin" (or do evil) or be punished for it (put to death for sinning in some cases) and that man is required to accept God as his savior or forfeit eternal life with him. UR rejects this notion putting a rather insane blind eye to verses that require choice to undo choice. Choice is not seen by them as the vehicle of sin or evil one could say to the UR standing man is unable to choose for himself evil or good because his flawed nature has him unable to responsibly do so and in that effort should not be judged and condemned (and responsible) for his evil acts therefore God is required to be responsible for ALL evil and thus required to save ALL mankind. This notion reduces man's choice to essentially irrelevant in nature. The UR position has God saving everyone or at least most people even to the point of saving people who choose to have nothing to do with God by their acts proving their defiance of all that is good and God.

If understood I think all these folks stand with me for a more traditional view/understanding of the Creation story and against the UR opinion I expressed in the OP and which 2knowHim supports.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Job 38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
Job 38:38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
Job 38:39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Job 39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?
Job 39:2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?
Job 39:3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.
Job 39:4 Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.
Job 39:5 Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?
Job 39:6 Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.
Job 39:7 He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver.
Job 39:8 The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.
Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
Job 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
Job 39:11 Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?
Job 39:12 Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?
Job 39:13 Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?
Job 39:14 Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,
Job 39:15 And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.
Job 39:16 She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear;
Job 39:17 Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.

This goes on for two more chapters, after reading these things, do you really believe that we have free will? or a choice?
If you do, you are mistaken.

Job's bottom line after all this was.........
Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Man either has a choice and IS responsible for the evil he does and thus needs to CHOOSE (with God's help) to accept God as his savior or the Gospel is meaningless and unneeded if man isn't responsible then God is and making man choose for God's fault is evil in itself.

2knowhim, I like his response and also our ancient way Christain comment here regarding LOVE and I think CS Lewis expressed it very well too:

“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.” CS Lewis - The Case for Christianity

 

[timewerx]

Yes except when He didn't know.
It does say He declares the end from the beginning but from the texts I can't make that that means also before He started to recreate earth and created this world.
If God is all good and if He created Adam in His sight why was Adam innocent, not knowing good and evil?
Knowing evil in Genesis means knowing by experience.
If God knew evil by doing it Himself He would be evil. Only way He could have known evil by experience is when Lucifer fell and He experienced it.

Good question but the real answer to that is esoteric in nature. It's not supposed to be told.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

According to Gnostics, Sophia accidentally created an evil fake gduty. This gduty promotes materialism so if you think material things are good in any degree, you probably worship this gduty.

In the thebook, this evil was allowed and not destroyed (yet) in order to promote the growth of the saints. Evil is the fire that purifies the gold (saints)

There's a saying goes "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger" something like that.

In science, difficult (evil) times, hasten adaptive mutations of a creatures which makes it stronger and more able to cope with its environment.

Assuming that God can see the future, the answer would be yes.

Even if indirectly, knowing that one act will lead to another, you are accountable for that. Just like someone who is an expert at the game of chess or billiards who can see several moves ahead.

Your position seems unique and not really the particular one my OP was meant to address here. I will say however, if I understand your comments correctly, that being the first cause of something, and in the case of God at least in the traditional view, the first cause of everything, we could correctly say He is responsible for having made everything just as it was made. But we were speaking of a period in Creation BEFORE some of the creatures He had made acted in a manner which the Creation story depicts greatly changed not just themselves, but the world around them too. So while we can lay at God's feet the creation of all those same creatures, unless we negate free will, we cannot hold Him responsible for what those creatures choose to do or for the results of those actions.

So if we do not negate free will, then it is not God that takes what He made only a potential and turns it into a reality, it is those creatures choosing to do so with that potential and make evil a reality. And in that construct of reality we do not have to imagine a God we claim to be All Good being directly responsible for making evil.

And yes, after evil is made a reality, the suffering that results can certainly be looked at as helping to those who struggle to do right. Fire melt/destroy it but it can also strengthen steel.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Assuming that God can see the future, the answer would be yes.

Even if indirectly, knowing that one act will lead to another, you are accountable for that. Just like someone who is an expert at the game of chess or billiards who can see several moves ahead.

Yes except when He didn't know.
It does say He declares the end from the beginning but from the texts I can't make that that means also before He started to recreate earth and created this world.
If God is all good and if He created Adam in His sight why was Adam innocent, not knowing good and evil?
Knowing evil in Genesis means knowing by experience.
If God knew evil by doing it Himself He would be evil. Only way He could have known evil by experience is when Lucifer fell and He experienced it.

Good question but the real answer to that is esoteric in nature. It's not supposed to be told.

I agree with JappAap that part of what is meant by "knowing evil" is to do it. And I agree God can NOT do evil - so His "knowing" evil must mean something else. Typically have heard people say things like He absolutely knew the potential of evil is a part of creating creatures truly free to love Him or not.

I think if we imagine God big enough, His Knowledge does not extend only to what WILL BE, but also to all the innumerable what COULD BEs to lead up to what is now and also to what will be. So while among all the possible what COULD BEs He alone knows the exact path that reaches Will BE. So while it is true that He alone Ordains what WILL BE, we can still say that He allows many contingencies to play out both randomly, by His Supernatural act/influence and also by the free choices of angles and mankind, the results of all that being part of His Knowledge, and He knows this before anything was made. And am certainly I left much out, but hopefully the gist is presented correctly.

 

[2KnowHim]

If understood I think all these folks stand with me for a more traditional view/understanding of the Creation story and against the UR opinion I expressed in the OP and which 2knowHim supports.

And when it comes right down to it, isn't that the real reason for creating this thread? So that you could have the backing of other orthodox views so you could continue to feel comfortable in your believing what you do? As the old saying goes, "there's strength in numbers". Like I said Dr. if your convinced that you have free will and your happy with it, then so be it, I'm sure one day you will find out that you were only being deceived. And make no mistake this is the Root to the question of "did God create Evil". As long as this deception of Free Will exist in you, you will never see The Truth. Trust me Dr. it isn't something I think or my opinion, it is something I KNOW. I believed it too for a long time, until that Idol in my heart was shattered by the brightness of His coming and The Spirit of His mouth. And it will be shattered in you too. God is in Control of everything, even in your decisions. For we live and move and have our being in Him.

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

And you still have to deal with this scripture too.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Job_2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

 

[Hillsage]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Job_2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Surely you do not expect scripture to change 'made up minds' do you? I've stayed away here because Bubba never refuted my position in the other thread. He just jumped ship and started over here IMO. Well let me help 'a little' in regard to more scripture, then I'm probably off.

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it?

By "done it" I'm sure God didn't show up with a week wacker. He just went to his created 'source' and used him, just like He did with Job.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals, and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And when it comes right down to it, isn't that the real reason for creating this thread? So that you could have the backing of other orthodox views so you could continue to feel comfortable in your believing what you do? As the old saying goes, "there's strength in numbers". Like I said Dr. if your convinced that you have free will and your happy with it, then so be it, I'm sure one day you will find out that you were only being deceived. And make no mistake this is the Root to the question of "did God create Evil". As long as this deception of Free Will exist in you, you will never see The Truth. Trust me Dr. it isn't something I think or my opinion, it is something I KNOW. I believed it too for a long time, until that Idol in my heart was shattered by the brightness of His coming and The Spirit of His mouth. And it will be shattered in you too. God is in Control of everything, even in your decisions. For we live and move and have our being in Him.

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

And you still have to deal with this scripture too.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Job_2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

I cannot help who shows up first in the thread, but as they replied to me do they not deserve at least my acknowledgment? For all I knew I may have misunderstood them - so it would help to correct that by acknowledging them as well. I guess I could have asked to restrict responses to only those who held these particular beliefs.

Actually the lack of free will is required in your view - I get that. I started this thread to ask people like yourself how it possible to see God as All Good if as you say, as you have repeatedly, that He makes Adam evil. God creates evil you said and as "proof" you suggest the idea that God made Adam evil is supported by Isa 45:7. When I pointed out an alternative view of Isa 45:7 the claim is that is just lie (which is a very easy claim to make when none other presents).

Besides, if Adam is not free to choose right or wrong, then you have God not only creating evil but have Him then punishing Adam for doing the only thing he could do because you claim he is not really free to choose. So you have Adam doing the only thing he could do -evil- and being punished for it, which is an injustice to Adam.

So not only does this view make God NOT All Good, it also makes Him not All Just. How much smaller do we need to make God so He will fit this UR teaching?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Surely you do not expect scripture to change 'made up minds' do you? I've stayed away here because Bubba never refuted my position in the other thread. He just jumped ship and started over here IMO. Well let me help 'a little' in regard to more scripture, then I'm probably off.

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it?

By "done it" I'm sure God didn't show up with a week wacker. He just went to his created 'source' and used him, just like He did with Job.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals, and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

You never gave a position. I did not dodge you and actually started this because the UR thread was being side tracked with lengthy discussions of all these odd beliefs required to make God small enough to allow UR to exist in the minds of some here. And I will remind everyone that the issues in Controversial Theology forums are not about why traditional orthodox views are right. The issues are things like how does your view make sense to you when it makes no sense to me.

You claim God creates evil. To do something requires an act, but first a thought in the mind and then the movement of the will before it becomes an act. So to lay this out, you have agreed God is All Good and hopefully that means you think there exists nothing with more Good than that. Yet somehow it makes sense to you to say in His Mind He conceives the opposite of what He is, then allows His Will to be set toward doing the opposite of what He is, for you to be able to then say He creates the opposite of Good (what He is). Am saying I do not see how that makes sense to you without saying God must be at least a little evil in order to be able to do evil. Am saying a house divided cannot stand and so a god imagined acting/working against himself is not the picture that I can imagine of God.

BTW to respond to that by saying you think the Bible says so, so it must be so, that is weak not because you use Scripture to try to make a point, but because it does not answer how it makes any sense to you. You could simply respond it does not make sense to you either but you believe it anyway because you think the Bible says so and we would be done here.

 

[2KnowHim]

Dr. you just do not understand the concept of ....God being all Good, therefore Evil would exist by default, do you?
God is the one who said after Adam ate of the tree, "Now he has become as one of us to know good and evil".
God knew evil long before Adam did. That is not to say God is evil...so don't twist our words please just because you don't understand what we are trying to explain to you.
But when God says He creates evil.....He is taking the responsibility for it, because He knows it will be a very real entity because He is Good, no matter what He does. He is saying .....I am the source of all things, even those things opposite of me. His Very Presence can be an Advocate to one, and an Adversary to another.

 

[2KnowHim]

I did not dodge you and actually started this because the UR thread was being side tracked with lengthy discussions of all these odd beliefs required to make God small enough to allow UR to exist in the minds of some here.

Let's see, your God in your beliefs only saves a few and the rest are eternally tormented, Jesus Christ died for All but He will not really get All that He paid for. The God you believe in only "wishes that all will be save" and "only offers Salvation" but not All will receive it. (because of free will).
Our God and our beliefs saves All in the end, And Christ Jesus gets All He paid for.....(because The Father has already put All things under His feet, (even though some don't see it yet) He is in Control and has not left Salvation up to fallen mankind,) .......Humm, which is bigger?

Your God, is limited to only saving in this physical realm before the grave and while still in the flesh, which profits nothing, and cannot enter the kingdom anyhow. And of course I don't know how the Resurrection fits into this view. (and please don't try to explain it to me, because I already know what you believe about that).
Our God is not limited by the physical realm of the flesh, and His hand is not to short that He cannot save to the uttermost, even beyond the grave. Because Real Life is in The Spirit, not The flesh.
Humm.....Which is Bigger?

To me it's a no brainer who is making Him small.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dr. you just do not understand the concept of ....God being all Good, therefore Evil would exist by default, do you?
God is the one who said after Adam ate of the tree, "Now he has become as one of us to know good and evil".
God knew evil long before Adam did. That is not to say God is evil...so don't twist our words please just because you don't understand what we are trying to explain to you.
But when God says He creates evil.....He is taking the responsibility for it, because He knows it will be a very real entity because He is Good, no matter what He does. He is saying .....I am the source of all things, even those things opposite of me. His Very Presence can be an Advocate to one, and an Adversary to another.

I understand the concept, you are essentially claiming evil is a necessity if Good exists at all. I disagree but I understand. If evil represents the relative absence of Good, then where there is nothing but Good there is no evil, which means evil is not a necessity. We could certainly say without Good there could be no concept of the absent of it (evil), because there is nothing to measure goodness against if something which is ALL Good does not exist. Similar to light and dark; darkness is not a necessity but simply a way to describe or even measure the relative absence of light. Light is a real thing, the lack of light is a concept - not a real thing - and therefore darkness is not necessity. If darkness were a necessity, we would have to see that even if everything was 100% illuminated, meaning no lack of light, that light would still be lacking. That is an impossible statement. We can talk about appreciating the light more because of shadows, but that does not mean the shadows become a real thing.

I know exactly what you are attempting to explain, am asking how you see it makes sense to you and you respond with basically saying "it is so" and this is why I believe it and here are scriptures. If you just add that it does not make sense to you either but believe it anyway because you think it is so and scriptures supports we would be done here.

Unless I viewed God more like something the Mormons do as just one of us only much older, I do not understand how we can attempt to apply our concept of what it means for a creature to have knowledge compare to the Creator. That would be the only way it makes sense to me to claim God has already obtained something one understands scripture to be saying His created creatures obtained. In such a view, He would be older than us and therefore have more time to obtain that, just as a belief in UR offers more time (albeit in Hell) for people to learn a lesson one is claiming they did not get a chance to learn in this life.

To me a larger concept of God would be our saying everything that we say He is, He is that thing. He is Love. He is Good...etc. That is not the same as just saying He has had much more time than us to obtain more of what we claim He is. So to suggest Adam and Eve's obtaining something that God had already obtained is suggesting both that He lacked something (before He obtained it - in this case "knew" evil) and that He changed - went from not knowing to knowing. So to me, with the presumption that God literally "is" (I am that I am), is inconsistent with saying He learned something before Adam and Eve did - which is why you thought about that verse makes no sense to me.

Now you could respond you absolutely think it means exactly and literally what it says (Now he has become as one of us to know good and evil), but you then cannot turn around and deny the logical consequence of that understanding. Which is it suggests God needed to "know evil" and that He changed like Adam and Eve did when they "gained that". The concepts God is Good and God never changes are logically incompatible with claiming God needed(lacked) at some point to "know evil". Again you could say you have no idea how it is suppose to make sense, but believe it anyway.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Let's see, your God in your beliefs only saves a few and the rest are eternally tormented, Jesus Christ died for All but He will not really get All that He paid for. The God you believe in only "wishes that all will be save" and "only offers Salvation" but not All will receive it. (because of free will).
Our God and our beliefs saves All in the end, And Christ Jesus gets All He paid for.....(because The Father has already put All things under His feet, (even though some don't see it yet) He is in Control and has not left Salvation up to fallen mankind,) .......Humm, which is bigger?

Your God, is limited to only saving in this physical realm before the grave and while still in the flesh, which profits nothing, and cannot enter the kingdom anyhow. And of course I don't know how the Resurrection fits into this view. (and please don't try to explain it to me, because I already know what you believe about that).
Our God is not limited by the physical realm of the flesh, and His hand is not to short that He cannot save to the uttermost, even beyond the grave. Because Real Life is in The Spirit, not The flesh.
Humm.....Which is Bigger?

To me it's a no brainer who is making Him small.

If it were a no-brainer then I would think you would be able to explain how the obvious implications of your UR belief makes sense to you, which you obviously cannot since all you do is repeatedly attack the opposing view/people/Church, quote scripture claimed to support your view and attempt to explain why you believe it is so. None of that explains how the implications make sense to you, which is what I am asking.

To me a God that never changes and is/has always been (eternally) All Good is far bigger than taking a position which at leasts strongly suggests ( I say requires) that He changed at some point (came to "know" evil like Adam and Eve). And certainly is a far greater/better God that can do no evil than imagining one that creates evil. BTW you never did explain how creating is not "doing" in your mind - which also defies logic. Or how it would make sense to say a house (in this reference God) divided between doing Good and working against itself/Good (creating evil) can stand.

 

[2KnowHim]

If you just add that it does not make sense to you either but believe it anyway because you think it is so and scriptures supports we would be done here.

Dr. We are done here, I will NOT say that it doesn't make sense to me, when It clearly does. You would love for me to say that, but I can't. I have tried repeatedly to explain why UR, and how God can say He creates Evil makes sense to me, especially in my last post to you. #33
But you will not receive it,....It is You, who does not understand these things. And I am not the one who can show you, only He can.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dr. We are done here, I will NOT say that it doesn't make sense to me, when It clearly does. You would love for me to say that, but I can't. I have tried repeatedly to explain why UR, and how God can say He creates Evil makes sense to me, especially in my last post to you. #33
But you will not receive it,....It is You, who does not understand these things. And I am not the one who can show you, only He can.

Again, am not trying to "prove" anything nor am I asking you to "prove" your claims are true and mine are false nor am asking you what understanding of what scripture are your claims based on. I know all that and it has certainly been repeated enough already. All your post #33 says is that your understanding of the Gen 3:22 means God "knew" evil before Adam "knew" evil and that somehow translates to God creates evil. Which is just again repeating your position and claiming it is based on that particular understanding of that verse.

So once again I ask how does it make sense to you say God does evil, because to me that is exactly what you have repeatedly says the Bible reveals to you. You just said God had to know evil before Adam did. What did Adam do in Chapter 3 to "know" evil? He sinned. So you are in effect saying Gen 3:22 tells you God sinned before Adam did, which is why I keep saying such thoughts are not compatible with saying you believe God is All Good. So while I understand you think those verses say that to you, I cannot see how that creates a view of God for you that makes sense to you. And I am fine if it doesn't make sense to you. God's ways are not our ways, so obviously we are limited in our ability to understand.

So I am perfectly fine if you want to say we cannot understand how God doing evil does not mean He is not All Good - many of us have made similar statements about different aspects of the Trinity Doctrine. So it is not like my saying that your view makes no sense to me, means I think it is not true just because it makes no sense. I happen to think it is not true for many other reasons, but that is not my point. My point is that it makes no sense to me to say the things you do about God or how He first created man. So am curious how it makes sense to you.

If you simply said that is unknowable or not absolutely knowable....etc (all things said about various aspects of the Trinity Doctrine - which I would defend none the less), then fine - but you refuse to say that. When asked how it makes sense, you ignore that question and just repeat like you did above why you think the belief that God creates evil is true - which says nothing about how it then makes sense to say God is All Good. Your answering questions am not asking and avoiding answering the one asked.

Yes or No. Does it make sense to you to say God creates evil and He is All Good?
Can you elaborate how creating something evil has no effect at all on the maker?
Can you really justify my making tools that have only one use, make it easier to kill babies in the womb, such that I am in no way responsible or accountable for the work my tools do? Can you explain how my creating evil (in doing that) is really distinct from doing evil?

 

[DennisTate]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

A near death experiencer was shown a truly impressive explanation regarding the fall of the Covering Cherub Lucifer.


Dr. RichardEby:
......

"Jesus, tell me about this wondrous music all about me. Who is the composer? How is it made? From whence does it come? It is gorgeous!"

I was not disappointed when he began his answer by again asking me:
"Didn't you read my book? Repeatedly it exhorts my children to praise me with music from strings, trumpets, timbrels and voices. It is and was the prime communication of worship and praise and thanksgiving. Since I am the Creator, I am the composer of heaven's music which you are hearing."

Music became the resulting harmony from all of our creations, both of matter and energy. All resonated in unison with us. The elementary form was of and from and in ourselves. I might explain it as a triad of sub-electronic energy particles with and around which We constructed everything in our universe. The wave-forms we called light; whereas the material-forms we called dust of the Earth and water and air. Out of these, and into these, we created animals and birds and fishes and vegetable life to support them. Over these we created a mankind to supervise them as our appointed custodians made in our special image to act for us on Earth!"

Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.
"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed "adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony "sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!" (Dr. RichardEby, near-death.com)

 

[DrBubbaLove]

A near death experiencer was shown a truly impressive explanation regarding the fall of the Covering Cherub Lucifer.


Dr. RichardEby:
......

Ok and I like it, but the view being espoused by many UR holders (and my reason for this thread) is that neither Satan or mankind was originally made to perfectly reflect that harmony or image. IOW God made them evil, which means God desired that evil exist. I do not agree. And it is opposed to traditional orthodox idea that everything was perfectly made just as your quote suggests in perfect harmony with the waveforms emanating from His Throne. From the orthodox view He gave some creatures (angels and mankind in the Bible's telling of the story of creation - leaving unaddressed the potential for His having made "others"), he gave us the ability to freely choose to be in harmony or sing off key - do evil. So in that view His created creatures are responsible for making bad music a reality - not Him.

In this twisted UR view of creation which I made this thread to discuss, God makes creatures that can only sing off key, even if only a little, which ro my simple mind means only God alone is responsible for that bad music -evil. The creature He is claimed to have made can only do what these UR folks say He made them to do - sing off key and so out of harmony with Him - evil. So God, who they also claim as we do is ALL Good, but for some reason wants disharmony - wants evil to exist and makes it exist. Which is to say He creates the opposite of what He is and that which is opposed(not in harmony with) to His Will. Then they add to that logical fallacy by adding the claim that having God create disharmony is NOT the same as God writing/producing the bad music Himself. I always thought that before bad music can be done/sung, someone has to write it. How to say the writer did not do it and thus not his fault escapes me, especially when one claims the writer wanted to create bad/disharmonious music.