Did Christ take on himself the sins of the world or the punishment for the sins of the world?

[zoidar]

Here are some thoughts ...

If Christ only bore the punishment for the sins of the world, it would explain how he could be resurrected. Then he would be innocent, spotless, yet punished for a crime he didn't deserve. So God could rightfully give him his life his back. But if he was carrying the actual sins then he was guilty, and not blameless on the cross, on what ground could he then be resurrected?

And another thing. If Jesus bore our sins, then did he have to die to save us? I mean, if he took on himself our sins, wouldn't that be enough. If he bore them, we no longer bear them, so to speak. So his death would seem a bit more like getting rid of his own sins than being punished for our sake. Thoughts on this.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Since the penalty for sin is death, someone had to die for the sin.

 

[amariselle]

Here are some thoughts ...

If Christ only bore the punishment for the sins of the world, it would explain how he could be resurrected. Then he would be innocent, spotless, yet punished for a crime he didn't deserve. So God could rightfully give him his life his back. But if he was carrying the actual sins then he was guilty, and not blameless on the cross, on what ground could he then be resurrected?

And another thing. If Jesus bore our sins, then did he have to die to save us? I mean, if he took on himself our sins, wouldn't that be enough to save us. If he bore them, we no longer bear them, so to speak. So his death would seem a bit more like getting rid of his own garbage than being punished for our sake. Thoughts on this.

Isaiah 53:
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I think it's clear from Scripture that Christ did indeed bear our sins, that they were "laid on Him", that He was punished in our place, though He was completely innocent and sinless Himself. He was also, as Isaiah 53:10 tells us, an "offering for sin." And Jesus Christ truly is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world. He laid down His life and He was an actual "sacrifice." ( All the OT sacrifices that could never take away sin point to Him.) He did carry the "actual sins" in that way, but they were not His sins, but ours. He was resurrected because He is God, perfect, righteous, Holy, blameless and eternal. He has no beginning and no end and nothing and no one can cause Him to cease to be. He conquered sin and the grave.

 

[Call me Nic]

Here are some thoughts ...

If Christ only bore the punishment for the sins of the world, it would explain how he could be resurrected. Then he would be innocent, spotless, yet punished for a crime he didn't deserve. So God could rightfully give him his life his back. But if he was carrying the actual sins then he was guilty, and not blameless on the cross, on what ground could he then be resurrected?

And another thing. If Jesus bore our sins, then did he have to die to save us? I mean, if he took on himself our sins, wouldn't that be enough. If he bore them, we no longer bear them, so to speak. So his death would seem a bit more like getting rid of his own sins than being punished for our sake. Thoughts on this.

Interesting to think about, for sure. I think he both took the sins of the entire world and paid the price; because the thing is that Christ forfeited his legal justification (lawfully righteous) and took our legal condemnation so that we could receive legal justification before God. However, Christ still held his moral justification (spiritually righteous), even unto death while he paid the price for us in hell for three days and nights, and because of this moral justification, God could not leave his soul in hell. And because Christ's soul is the soul of God, it is therefore sufficient to bare and pay for the sins of all who have ever lived, because of it's shear value - it's not a man's soul in that it was good for one single redemption of one man. So, to my understanding, he both bare the sins and paid for the punishment of the sins of the entire world, while being both justified and unjustified (for a temporary time) before God.

Scripture paints this picture, but there are not verses that specifically address this, I don't think.

However, from scripture we know:
1). Christ was made sin for us, so he became unjustified before God on our account to be eligible for the punishment of our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21).
2). He died for every man and was the propitiation for all sins (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6).
3). We are washed clean by his blood (Revelation 1:5, Colossians 1:14).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So his death would seem a bit more like getting rid of his own sins than being punished for our sake.

You do know, right, that He has no sin of His own - never did, never will.

If He had committed any sin, just one sin, He could not have saved anyone else - He would not be Savior, God, Messiah, Perfect, Giver of Life He Is.

 

[συνείδησις]

He took on the penalty for sin, not sin itself. The 2nd occurrence of the word sin in 2 Corinthians 5:21 in most bibles is the same word used in the OT LXX for sin offering. There is no word for sin offering in either Hebrew or Greek. They simply said for sin, or regarding sin, or concerning sin. So Christ became a sin offering, not sin itself (which is nonsensical, really).

 

[Chinchilla]

Here are some thoughts ...

If Christ only bore the punishment for the sins of the world, it would explain how he could be resurrected. Then he would be innocent, spotless, yet punished for a crime he didn't deserve. So God could rightfully give him his life his back. But if he was carrying the actual sins then he was guilty, and not blameless on the cross, on what ground could he then be resurrected?

And another thing. If Jesus bore our sins, then did he have to die to save us? I mean, if he took on himself our sins, wouldn't that be enough. If he bore them, we no longer bear them, so to speak. So his death would seem a bit more like getting rid of his own sins than being punished for our sake. Thoughts on this.

Bible says he was made sin , not that he took sins on himself .

He was made sin like serpent on pole in OT . 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Bible says he was made sin , not that he took sins on himself .

He was made sin like serpent on pole in OT . 2 Corinthians 5:21

The English language cause mistaken translation/ mistaken understanding there, as noted by previous poster.

 

[bcbsr]

Here are some thoughts ...

If Christ only bore the punishment for the sins of the world, it would explain how he could be resurrected. Then he would be innocent, spotless, yet punished for a crime he didn't deserve. So God could rightfully give him his life his back. But if he was carrying the actual sins then he was guilty, and not blameless on the cross, on what ground could he then be resurrected?

And another thing. If Jesus bore our sins, then did he have to die to save us? I mean, if he took on himself our sins, wouldn't that be enough. If he bore them, we no longer bear them, so to speak. So his death would seem a bit more like getting rid of his own sins than being punished for our sake. Thoughts on this.

A popular notion is that God pretended that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world and poured wrath on him. As you pointed out, and as Peter also points out in 1Peter, Christ was innocent and suffered an injustice on the cross.

To point out the obvious, if God poured out wrath on a man who he knew was innocent, that is an act of injustice making God out to be unjust. But since God is just, I discard such a theory of atonement at blasphemy.

The way I view it is that there are two arms of justice.

1. Punishing the wicked
2. Compensating victims of unjustified suffering.

Jesus was a victim of unjustified suffering. A suffering not coming from God's wrath, but rather from wicked men. "you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Acts 2:23 And contrary to the popular notion, God was not one of those wicked men.

He bore the payment for our sins through his unjustified suffering. For as unjustified suffering results in compensation to the victim, so with that compensation Jesus paid for the sins of the world.

 

[συνείδησις]

He took on the penalty for sin, not sin itself. The 2nd occurrence of the word sin in 2 Corinthians 5:21 in most bibles is the same word used in the OT LXX for sin offering. There is no word for sin offering in either Hebrew or Greek. They simply said for sin, or regarding sin, or concerning sin. So Christ became a sin offering, not sin itself (which is nonsensical, really).

Here's an example from the OT showing one of the ways that sin-offering was written - υπέρ αμαρτία - which basically means regarding sin. Sometimes another preposition is used (περί).

And on the second day they shall take two kids of the goats without blemish for a sin-offering; and they shall make atonement for the altar, as they made atonement with the calf. Ezekiel 43:22

και τη ημέρα τη δευτέρα λήψη έριφον εξ αιγών αμώμους υπέρ αμαρτίας και εξιλάσονται το θυσιαστήριον καθότι εξιλάσαντο εν τω μόσχω Ezekiel 43:22​

Notice that these are the same words used for sin-offering in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

τον γαρ μη γνόντα αμαρτίαν υπέρ ημών αμαρτίαν εποίησεν ίνα ημείς γινώμεθα δικαιοσύνη θεού εν αυτώ 2 Corinthians 5:21​

 

[Dave-W]

In Hebrew the word for sin and sin sacrifice is the same: chatah.

So to the Jewish mindset, one gets totally identified with the other.

 

[συνείδησις]

A popular notion is that God pretended that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world and poured wrath on him. As you pointed out, and as Peter also points out in 1Peter, Christ was innocent and suffered an injustice on the cross.

To point out the obvious, if God poured out wrath on a man who he knew was innocent, that is an act of injustice making God out to be unjust. But since God is just, I discard such a theory of atonement at blasphemy.

The way I view it is that there are two arms of justice.

1. Punishing the wicked
2. Compensating victims of unjustified suffering.

Jesus was a victim of unjustified suffering. A suffering not coming from God's wrath, but rather from wicked men. "you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Acts 2:23 And contrary to the popular notion, God was not one of those wicked men.

He bore the payment for our sins through his unjustified suffering. For as unjustified suffering results in compensation to the victim, so with that compensation Jesus paid for the sins of the world.

The blood covenant made the exchange perfectly just and acceptable. In blood covenants everything one party has becomes the other's, and vice versa. So the debt for our sins was imputed to Christ and his righteousness is imputed to us.

 

[Greg J.]

There's a lot of opinion on the details of salvation (e.g., substitutionary atonement?). IMO, the best way to see it is to examine what was required of a kinsman-redeemer in the Law. God was the Father of all mankind. Jesus had the right (the authority) to be his fallen family's kinsman-redeemer. We were slaves to sin (Satan) and could not save ourselves. The required price to no longer be a slave to sin was death (which pays the debt, but doesn't purify a person).

The big question for each person is, has one accepted that God was and is the Father of us all or not (acknowledging who he is, his relationship to us [he is God and we are not], believe he paid for our sin, etc.). To accept Jesus as such is to accept the truth that he is our God, but a person that rejects who Jesus is has made a moral choice to deny the truth and thus excludes himself from the family for whom Jesus died.

Because of God's love for us, by grace alone he grants rebirth in Christ to those who's debt to him has been paid (and we are recreated pure, since nothing can untaint something tainted with sin).

 

[Bobber]

I've actually thought about this through the years. If justice demanded at least a substitute and Jesus was made sin with our sins...then yes how is it that he could eventually come out from under it. I'm speculating but I'm thinking when Jesus declared, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me" Matt 27:47 there's more to it then what we appreciate. It would seem to me that justice of the eternal must work this way....That sure Jesus could die as a substitute BUT the actual truth was Jesus never did sin so this becomes an equally thing of moral consideration with God.

Jesus cried out "Why have you forsaken me" perhaps a declaration even in a legal sense towards God that it'd be unjust to forever let it stay this way. So punishment has already been carried out for the substitution and it wouldn't be just to allow it to count for nothing but it truly wouldn't be just to allow the sinless one Jesus to stay in the state of being forsaken forever.

Could be wrong but it's sort of like God is setting up a system where he'd be in check mate either way. So he does what he has to do and that is raise up Jesus from the dead (which is just) but also make the substitution now count for those who believe.(which is also just) We of course know that Jesus actually DID KNOW why he was forsaken...truly he knew he came to bear the sins of the world. So it does seem like it was a call for justice that he knew God the Father would provide. Thus he declared with his last words, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" He knew he would not forever stay forsaken of God.

 

[bcbsr]

If justice demanded

I'll tell you what justice demands. Justice demands that a person not be punished for sins he didn't actually commit. To knowingly torture someone to death for crimes he didn't commit is an act of injustice.

"My God, My God why have you forsaken me" Matt 27:47

This indicates that God was not involved in torturing Jesus, but rather was standing aside while wicked men tortured him. "you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Acts 2:23 God was not one of those wicked men.

 

[AvgJoe]

2 Corinthians 5:21

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
​

He was made sin so that a sinner who openly declares that Jesus is Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead, will be saved and will become the righteousness of God.`

 

[faroukfarouk]

Interesting to think about, for sure. I think he both took the sins of the entire world and paid the price; because the thing is that Christ forfeited his legal justification (lawfully righteous) and took our legal condemnation so that we could receive legal justification before God. However, Christ still held his moral justification (spiritually righteous), even unto death while he paid the price for us in hell for three days and nights, and because of this moral justification, God could not leave his soul in hell. And because Christ's soul is the soul of God, it is therefore sufficient to bare and pay for the sins of all who have ever lived, because of it's shear value - it's not a man's soul in that it was good for one single redemption of one man. So, to my understanding, he both bare the sins and paid for the punishment of the sins of the entire world, while being both justified and unjustified (for a temporary time) before God.

Scripture paints this picture, but there are not verses that specifically address this, I don't think.

However, from scripture we know:
1). Christ was made sin for us, so he became unjustified before God on our account to be eligible for the punishment of our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21).
2). He died for every man and was the propitiation for all sins (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6).
3). We are washed clean by his blood (Revelation 1:5, Colossians 1:14).

Great verse: 2 Corinthians 5.21.

The Lord Jesus did no sin (1 Peter 2.22); He knew no sin (2 Corinthians 5.21); in Him is no sin (1 John 3.5).

 

[faroukfarouk]

2 Corinthians 5:21

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
​

He was made sin so that a sinner who openly declares that Jesus is Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead, will be saved and will become the righteousness of God.`

Yes, great verse there!

 

[Kenny'sID]

I think you may be over thinking, he simply paid the price for our sin, something that can be nothing but honorable in the sight of God.

 

[zoidar]

You do know, right, that He has no sin of His own - never did, never will.

If He had committed any sin, just one sin, He could not have saved anyone else - He would not be Savior, God, Messiah, Perfect, Giver of Life He Is.

Of course I know. But if our sins were transferred to him, wouldn't that make him a sinner?

 

[zoidar]

A popular notion is that God pretended that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world and poured wrath on him. As you pointed out, and as Peter also points out in 1Peter, Christ was innocent and suffered an injustice on the cross.

To point out the obvious, if God poured out wrath on a man who he knew was innocent, that is an act of injustice making God out to be unjust. But since God is just, I discard such a theory of atonement at blasphemy.

The way I view it is that there are two arms of justice.

1. Punishing the wicked
2. Compensating victims of unjustified suffering.

Jesus was a victim of unjustified suffering. A suffering not coming from God's wrath, but rather from wicked men. "you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Acts 2:23 And contrary to the popular notion, God was not one of those wicked men.

He bore the payment for our sins through his unjustified suffering. For as unjustified suffering results in compensation to the victim, so with that compensation Jesus paid for the sins of the world.

I'm not sure I believe it was God's wrath that was poured on him. Would you quote some verses for that?