Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

Ligurian said:

How do you reconcile the contradictions between

the building of the temple and temple sacrifices

with Isaiah 66:1-2 and Jeremiah 7:22-23?

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My post you responded to is about the health message, so how does the scriptures you posted relate to this?

Leaf473 said:

Did you definitely mean
heath,
or something else? Health? Heart?

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I meant health, thanks for the correction.

Ligurian said:

Only the health message can't be contradictory... okay

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The scriptures are not contradictory, but the conversation that was being discussed that you replied to was about the health message. You provided no context to the scripture you posted which is why I asked for clarification.

Cornelius8L said:

Let me bring in this discussion as well regarding Jesus declaring God is still working on the seventh day (John 5:17).

(I will rephrase a bit for the sake of the readers.)

Priesthood work is not secular work during the seventh day, yet Jesus says they break the Sabbath (Matthew 12:5). So, what is the definition of “work” by Jesus?

A few examples of God’s secular works even on the seventh day (John 5:17),

Psalms 89:9
You rule the raging sea; when its waves mount up, You still them.

Matthew 5:45
He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.​

If God is not doing secular works on the Seventh-day, that day would be darkness, no rain, still sea etc

So, what was it that nailed to the cross?

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I am not in a position to question/judge God about His works, if thats something you’re comfortable with, I will leave that between you and Him.

God gave us a commandment to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8-11 and the scripture are filled with references on how to do this. Doing the work of the Lord like preachers who preach on Sabbath is held blameless by God. If you want to interpret that as we can define our own definition of work and not do the ways of the Lord on His holy day as instructed Isaiah 58:13 and think one will still be held blameless, not something I am interested in getting in the middle of and not the path I choose to take. We can only go by His written Word and we will all have to answer to Jesus one day soon.

Cornelius8L said:

Even if we disregard Romans 14:5 and Hebrews 4:3-11,

Psalms (which Jesus acknowledged as scripture that cannot be broken, John 10:35) stated:

Psalm 27:4 “One thing I have asked of the LORD; this is what I desire: to dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty [means in Love] of the LORD and seek Him in His temple [points to Jesus & us (Matthew 12:6, 1 Corinthians 3:16)].”​

And,

Matthew 22:37 Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’​

These deeds are beyond what Isaiah 58:13 mentioned - which seem to act as the minimum requirement due to transgression. (By the way, Isaiah 58:13 can also be kept through tradition and without love.)

“For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings (Hosea 6:6).” - God desires mercy and knowledge of Him, not routine works (sacrifices/offerings).

It is like the Mother’s Day. Yes, we can have that day a little special, but isn’t every day supposed to be Mother’s Day which mothers delight? Likewise for marriage anniversary and many more. These remembrances were there as a reminder due to men’s busy life. A day to stop and ponder, a day of rest. It goes the same for the new year, birthday, etc. Similarly, “the reminder” was not there in Genesis but later in Exodus, probably as they do not need it to have the spirit to do what is right until much later.

Do we realize all the ten commandments can be kept without love? That is why Jesus came to fulfill (‘change/upgrade’ if you may) them in the new testament.

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Yes, the commandments can be kept without love, but only God knows the heart and will judge each of us righteously.

According to the scripture one cannot love God though if breaking His commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Leaf473 said:

If loving God is the most important thing,

And if we cannot love God while breaking his commandments,

And if some of his commandments ended at the cross,

Then it seems reasonable that there would be loads of books and websites dealing with which commandments didn't end.

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We don’t need to look at outside sources for God’s Word and since God’s Word cannot lie, it appears you might have a grave misunderstanding of what ended and what did not end at the cross. The majority are not the ones who are obeying the commandments of God. And it is not God who wants us to break His holy commandments, but God’s adversary. Revelation 12:17

Love for God will never end and either will the commandments of God.

For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3
If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:12
Showing mercy to those who love Me and keep My commandments Exodus 20:10
John 10:9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

If we follow the scriptures, love to God and obedience to God’s commandments is not separated. If love is the greatest commandment, means we cannot love God when we are willfully sinning and breaking God’s commandments.

Cornelius8L said:

Did a quick search for references that ‘commandments’ pointed to something apart from the TEN.

(Psalms 119:96 I have seen a limit to all perfection, but Your commandment is without limit.)​

Malachi 2:1,4 ‘commandment’ points to sacrifices
Leviticus 27:34 ‘commandment’ points to tithes
Numbers 36:13 ‘commandment’ points to Zelophehad’s daughters’ inheritance
Job 23:12 ‘commandment’ points to the words of God
Nehemiah 13:5 ‘commandment’ points to offerings
2 John 1:5 ‘commandment’ points to loving one another

And this is interesting,
1 Kings 14:8 – God said David kept the commandments, but we know David broke them.

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Jesus points right to the Ten in His teachings…..and says when one obey mans rules above God’s commandments, one worships in vain.

Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

And again teaching from His Fathers commandments
Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

And again Jesus teaching and warning us to not break the least of the commandments nor teach others to break them quoting directly from the Ten.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly,while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


The problem with a quick search instead of prayerfully and carefully studying the scripture is you tend to lose a lot of context. There are more than Ten Commandments, but the Ten Commandments are included in the commandments of God according to God. Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20:18, Exodus 20 and Jesus Matthew 15:3-9, Matthew 19:17-19, John 14:15, Matthew 5:19-30. They are different than all other commandments because God not only spoke the Ten, He also personally wrote these commandments with His own finger Exodus 31:18. Only the Ten were placed inside the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple which is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 under His mercy seat and what we will be judged on. James 2:10-12. Which is why Paul points directly to the Ten to point out sin. Romans 7:7

In regards to David, he did sin, but repented so his sins were blotted out and he did keep the commandments of God, just like we see with a lot of the hero’s in the scriptures many sinned, but were able to gain victor over sin and when we get to the faith chapters in Hebrews, their sins are not mentioned, because they all repented with a sincere heart, turned from their sin and walked with God in obedience to Him. This is encouraging for us because we too can overcome our sin through Jesus and He gives us a new heart that keeps His commandments through love and faith.

Leaf473 said:

I agree we don't have to look at outside sources. But I figured that people who had a good understanding of what commandments didn't end at the cross would be talking about those commandments with each other. And then sometimes writing books, websites.

If you'd like to talk about the specifics of which commandments didn't end at the cross, that would be great. If you would like to keep it vague and theoretical, that's okay... but... from what I've seen, the vague and theoretical discussions tend to go on indefinitely with people lobbing the same scriptures back and forth.

It's in the specifics that I think the discussions get interesting, especially the lesser-known laws.

Here's a fascinating commandment about clean/unclean. Did it end of the cross? I believe it did.

Anyone with such a defiling disease must wear torn clothes, let their hair be unkempt,[c] cover the lower part of their face and cry out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’ 46 As long as they have the disease they remain unclean. They must live alone; they must live outside the camp. NIV Leviticus 13

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I think the ones Jesus taught us not to break- quoting from the Ten Commandments would be a good place to start on what one should keep. You previously disagreed and that’s your free will.

Amazing that God knows that one should isolate when one has a disease so not to get others sick. We don’t need scientists to tell us that, when God who created us knows what’s best for us.