Did Adam sin?

[Robban]

That one is easy. It is a grammatical form known as the Royal We or Majestic Plural. God refers to Himself constantly in the Qur'an that way. We see it in the Baha'i Writings as well.

Can two or more Kings share the same Crown?

This is what the moon was asked, when it was not given the same radience as the sun,

However, it was told that it had Another roll,
to determine time, tides, Days, feasts etc.

And He made man in His image, in His image He made man.

 

[Catherineanne]

Good morning Catherineanne,

Just in case I've caused offence: I was only teasing yesterday when I said that you 'are an Anglican after all!'

Have a good day.

It takes a lot more than that to offend me, Nibs. I am not ashamed to be Anglican; quite the opposite.

Good day to you too. : )

 

[Catherineanne]

Can two or more Kings share the same Crown?

Indeed they can. The tradition of the Holy Roman Empire was for the heir to the throne to be crowned King before his father died, effectively creating two Kings to one crown.

This caused all sorts of trouble, for obvious reasons.

 

[Catherineanne]

Nope. Just because someone does not know they are sinning, does not mean they are not sinning. Eg, a toddler who steals a toy might not know it is wrong to steal a toy. Yet, it is sin. They did not sin willingly though, as consistent with John 15:22. However, this leads us to the conclusion that we do sin without knowing that we are sinning, and that we cannot be held accountable for that sin as though we had sinned deliberately. If you think I am wrong, please go ahead and explain why you think that toddlers never sin. I am sue they do. If someone demands of another person, that is sin. Toddlers are demanding. Even babies are demanding. Though, they do not know that they sin, so they deserve some lenience compared to who is culpable.

No, if a person who understood right and wrong were to steal it would be a sin. With a toddler it is simply testing boundaries; sharing; playing; all sorts of options. But it can never be sin. Sin has to include a deliberate intention to do wrong, while knowing for certain that right would mean doing something different. Sin is choice.

You seem happy to admit that babies are not culpable; what makes you think that toddlers are? The age of moral responsibility is rather higher than 2 or 3.

 

[Catherineanne]

You must understand that we are spirit beings. Our flesh is not who we are. I do NOT claim sinless perfection. When I sin, I know what I am doing. Deep inside it grieves me, although my flesh may enjoy it. That is what I mean when I say that we do not desire to sin. Our flesh will always want to sin. It is fallen. But who we really are (spirit, as God created us in HIS image ... and THEN formed a body for us) hates it.

Are you familiar with the life of Jesus?

No, we are not simply spirit. We are flesh and spirit, the same as the Lord.

The Lord ascended in his body, not just in spirit.

 

[Niblo]

It takes a lot more than that to offend me, Nibs.

Good day to you too. : )

Ah...thank you. Take care.

 

[Theway]

Is this LDS doctrine? Reading Romans 5 makes it crystal clear, imo, that Adam sinned.

You are correct.. It is only "your opinion" (imo) That Romans 5 says Adam sinned in the Garden.
As we can see here on this thread, many others have differing opinions.
What is Mormon doctrine is that Innocents are not held accountable for the transgression of an Innocent.

 

[Theway]

So you're one of those 'follow your heart' types? That's dangerous territory. Is it your belief that your heart is a compass inside of you that will direct you to your own true north if you just have the courage to follow it? Believing that your heart is a true guide and that it will lead you to true happiness if you just have the courage to listen to it is dangerous.

I do not know how to respond because I do not know whether I'm one of those "follow your heart" persons or not, as I have no idea what you mean by "following your heart"?
I'm afraid you will have to explain it further.
Do you equate following you heart with...
1. Following your conscience?
2. Following your feelings?
3. Following the Spirit within me?
4. Following my understanding?
5. Following my physical urges?
6. Following my inherent desires?
6. Following the will I have for me and others?
7. Following temptation?
8. Following what I believe my needs are?
9. Following what I believe my wants are?
10. Following my interpretation of God's Words?
11. Following what I know God has revealed to me?
12. Following what I believe are God's promptings?
13. Following my emotions?


I could go on, but I think you get the point... Please be more specific?

 

[Supreme]

You are correct.. It is only "your opinion" (imo) That Romans 5 says Adam sinned in the Garden.
As we can see here on this thread, many others have differing opinions.
What is Mormon doctrine is that Innocents are not held accountable for the transgression of an Innocent.

What is Christian doctrine is that Adam ceased to be an innocent the moment he disobeyed God.

 

[Theway]

What is Christian doctrine is that Adam ceased to be an innocent the moment he disobeyed God.

True... However that does not answer the question as to whether Adams initial transgression was a sin or not, being as they did not understand the concept of right and wrong, nor did they understand the consequences either way.

 

[BukiRob]

I'm sorry, but I always laugh at any suggest that Christians don't sin or don't have the desire to sin. Where has this ever been true? Nowhere. Even very, very good Christians will make mistakes and I refuse, absolutely refuse, to believe anybody who tells me they don't sin. Guess what? You're pride might just be a sin if you do.

A sacrifice, contrary to some Christian theology, was not some magic charm where you could go sacrifice a goat or lamb and it was all good. In fact, when one reads Leviticus one might be surprised to note a lack of which sacrifice I'm supposed to bring if I, knowing it is a sin, light a candle on Shabbat. You can read it over and over again and you won't find it. Repentance, like the story of David when he sent the man to die so he could take his wife, was the key to that, not blood on an altar. It's in the text in black and white.

For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of G-d. That is in Romans.

1 John 1: 8 If we claim not to have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we acknowledge our sins, then, since he is trustworthy and just, he will forgive them and purify us from all wrongdoing.

10 If we claim we have not been sinning, we are making him out to be a liar, and his Word is not in us.

Anyone, christian or not, who says they have no sin is deceived and a liar

I've seen people try to do the whole Jesus is in the Tanach thing. They all fail miserably with me as I point out the context of the text and how it doesn't fit their view. They take a sentence here, a sentence there, and claim victory.

HaMashiach is found clearly in the Hebrew Scriptures. The fact that you can not or refuse to see him there does not invalidate the very real fact that he is there.

Now, as for the gentile church... it has persisted in great error for almost 1800 years. Had the Gentile church remained in its roots of the sect of Judaism called The Way AKA the Sect of the Nazarene's the number of Jews who believe would be vastly greater than it is.

The Tanak speaks plainly that the Jews of that time would reject Mashiach when he came. This can be found in Psalms, Isaiah and Zachariah.

 

[TheBarrd]

You're in the World Religion Forum, remember? We have different ideas about what constitutes God's Word.

Yes, and each one may post his or her ideas.

 

[GillDouglas]

Innocent does mean that one is good or evil. It means their knowledge and understanding is lacking because they do not have experience. A little child can not sin because they do not have the capabilities to understand yet. The are not developed enough to sin. But they can disobey Gods laws. But they do so in innocence. Is God going to condemn them to hell? Why would Christ say that we were to become as a little child?

I believe that a child who dies before they can be held accountable for their sins are not destined for hell. Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part, but I imagine God has a soft spot for the little ones.

Christ said that we are to have child-like faith. Children have a tendency to be more gullible and believe everything they hear. They do not let any preconceived notions or understanding get in the way of their belief. I'm not saying that we should be gullible, that's kind of a bad choice in words, but we should not rely on our own understanding.

I do not know how to respond because I do not know whether I'm one of those "follow your heart" persons or not, as I have no idea what you mean by "following your heart"?
I'm afraid you will have to explain it further.
Do you equate following you heart with...
<snip>
I could go on, but I think you get the point... Please be more specific?

Follow your heart means to act on the desires of your heart. Our hearts by default do not desire God, and they won't lead us to Him. They don’t tell us the truth, they just tell us what we want. They are not benevolent, they are pathologically selfish. In fact, if we do what our hearts tell us to do we will pervert and impoverish every desire, every beauty, every person, every wonder, and every joy. Our hearts want to consume these things for our own self-glory and self-indulgence.

 

[BukiRob]

True... However that does not answer the question as to whether Adams initial transgression was a sin or not, being as they did not understand the concept of right and wrong, nor did they understand the consequences either way.

IMO scripture is pretty clear on this...

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Paul is clearly teaching what was universally accepted by the Jews. Adam sinned and as a result death passed upon all men

 

[Niblo]

True... However that does not answer the question as to whether Adams initial transgression was a sin or not, being as they did not understand the concept of right and wrong, nor did they understand the consequences either way.

I wonder if it would be more helpful to consider what followed Adam’s disobedience:

As you know, the Bible tells us that Adam was punished. Why would the Exalted do this unless there was a justification? Or are we to believe that punishment was given without just cause?

The Qur’an, by the way, says that Adam was not punished but forgiven. However, the question remains: Why would God grant forgiveness if there was no need of it?

The Exalted knows best why He acted as He did. Perhaps this is all that matters.

 

[BukiRob]

Follow your heart means to act on the desires on your heart. Our hearts by default do not desire God, and they won't lead us to Him. They don’t tell us the truth, they just tell us what we want. They are not benevolent, they are pathologically selfish. In fact, if we do what our hearts tell us to do we will pervert and impoverish every desire, every beauty, every person, every wonder, and every joy. Our hearts want to consume these things for our own self-glory and self-indulgence.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?"

This is why the Torah exists. It is to teach us HOW to love Gd and our fellow man. If we are left to our own device AKA follow your heart... we are led astray.

There is NO account in scripture that depicts "doing right in your own eyes" as anything except practicing evil.

Scripture declares "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is destruction"

We are to follow Gd and HIS ways.... You are spot on with what you are saying!

 

[Theway]

Follow your heart means to act on the desires of your heart. Our hearts by default do not desire God, and they won't lead us to Him. They don’t tell us the truth, they just tell us what we want. They are not benevolent, they are pathologically selfish. In fact, if we do what our hearts tell us to do we will pervert and impoverish every desire, every beauty, every person, every wonder, and every joy. Our hearts want to consume these things for our own self-glory and self-indulgence.

You still have not given me your definition of what the heart is which I am supposedly following; even after a gave you a list to choose from.
Sans a definition by you, a heart to me means an organ which pumps blood. It would be silly of me to follow that.

However because you are shying away from giving me a definition of your own, then I can only assume you are using "heart" as some type of catch-all platitude to make it seem like you are saying something profound, when in fact all you are doing is spouting useless rhetoric which has no meaning nor gives any enlightenment to the conversation.

 

[BukiRob]

You still have not given me your definition of what the heart is which I am supposedly following; even after a gave you a list to choose from.
Sans a definition by you, a heart to me means an organ which pumps blood. It would be silly of me to follow that.

However because you are shying away from giving me a diffinition

The heart is the seat of both the mind and your desires... generally speaking that part of you that motivates you to action.

Man has both the inclination to do that which is good and that which is evil. Yeshua said the mouth confesses what the heart believes. Since the heart has the inclination of both good and evil we must put our trust in that which is certain the Word of Gd.

 

[GillDouglas]

You still have not given me your definition of what the heart is which I am supposedly following; even after a gave you a list to choose from.
Sans a definition by you, a heart to me means an organ which pumps blood. It would be silly of me to follow that.

However because you are shying away from giving me a definition of your own, then I can only assume you are using "heart" as some type of catch-all platitude to make it seem like you are saying something profound, when in fact all you are doing is spouting useless rhetoric which has no meaning nor gives any enlightenment to the conversation.

My apologies for not defining heart for you, I made too many assumptions in not explaining it further. You can think of heart as self, or as BukiRob put it, the mind of desires that motivate you to do something. Current popular culture pushes the 'follow your heart' mantra, and this idea is incompatible with a Christian lifestyle. As a brother in Christ, I only mean to warn you not to get caught up in this popular calling to be led by your heart.

 

[LoAmmi]

HaMashiach is found clearly in the Hebrew Scriptures. The fact that you can not or refuse to see him there does not invalidate the very real fact that he is there.

The fact that you insert Jesus into places you please doesn't invalid the very real fact that Jesus doesn't fit. (I can play that game too)

Perhaps instead of assuming it's just my fault that I'm blind or refuse to accept something, you instead read what I have to say and see if it lines up logically. If I could rip one thing out of Christianity it would be the assumption that everybody else is just blind, stupid, or refuses to listen.

The Tanak speaks plainly that the Jews of that time would reject Mashiach when he came. This can be found in Psalms, Isaiah and Zachariah.

No it doesn't and no it can't. This is your interpretation, one I could pretty readily refute. It won't change the fact that you'll keep your interpretation and believe you are correct and I'll keep mine.