Did Adam sin?

[ChetSinger]

You are correct.. It is only "your opinion" (imo) That Romans 5 says Adam sinned in the Garden.
As we can see here on this thread, many others have differing opinions.
What is Mormon doctrine is that Innocents are not held accountable for the transgression of an Innocent.

Wow, I didn't expect that response. I'm astonished that anyone, much less an entire religion, could read Romans 5 and conclude that Adam didn't sin.

Below is a fragment of it (ESV). In context, the entire thing is a comparison of Adam's sin and its results with Christ's righteousness and its results. I've underlined some parts that I think are relevant to this thread. Would you share how the LDS explains away verse 16?

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for fall men.
19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[ChetSinger]

Then we must question why the Church rejected so much of this scripture; and why it does so to this day.

I was a Christian for just over sixty years. In all this time I never heard any priest or minister preach a sermon based on the Gospels of Mary, Thomas; Philip; or Judas; nor on the Gospel of Truth. Nor did I come across any pastoral letter based on the same.

How would you explain this neglect of scripture?

Hello. In general, the works considered for inclusion in the NT canon were those written by 1st-century apostles (Matthew, John, Paul, etc.) or their traveling companions (Mark, Luke, etc.).

Gnostic works were rejected because their claimed authorships weren't believed. That unbelief has been borne out: even today, Gnostic works are generally dated to the 2nd century, with NT works dated to the 1st.

 

[Alawishis]

im asking this question because there are many who believe that Adam is a dirty dog. Here is my reasoning to why they are not and were following the plan of God. Adam and Eve were placed in the garden of Eden. They were innocent of knowledge of good and evil. Satan was allowed to tempt them and Eve partook of the fruit and gave it to Adam. I believe that Adam and Eve disobeyed Gods law to not eat the fruit. God had told them not to eat of the fruit or they would die. Since there had not yet had death enter into the garden did they understand what the consequences of their choice? Since they did not know good and evil, could Adam and Eve understood what the law was and the consequences? They did disobey and as a result death came into the world. Sin also came into the world because of imperfection. I believe that to justice it does not matter if someone disobeys having full knowledge and understanding of the law broken or if someone is innocent of the law. It is still disobedience and there are consequences that must come as a result. The punishment is the same. Logic dictates that this was Gods plan all along because why would he allow satan to tempt them? Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil for them to be tempted. I believe that God wanted Adam to eat the fruit so mortality would come to this earth as well so we could know good from evil. To experience the opposites of life so we could continue to progress. So to me Adam and Eve did not sin. They did transgress Gods law which had the same punishment.

Your part of a growing section of Christians that either don't read the bible, or would rather take their own imaginings, or the word of others as a higher authority. If you read scripture it's very clear Adam did sin. Adam even more so than Eve because Eve was deceived, but Adam knew what he was doing. There was no Devil there whispering to Adam to take the fruit. I don't know where you get your definition of sin but the bible is very clear "sin is transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4 . Please don't take my word for it go read it. If you are going to be a Christian I highly recommend that rather than listening to the imaginings of your heart that will lead you to destruction, read the book God gave you that answers all your questions. Christians without the bible are not truly Christians. There are not enough Bereans left in the world.

 

[Robban]

Indeed they can. The tradition of the Holy Roman Empire was for the heir to the throne to be crowned King before his father died, effectively creating two Kings to one crown.

This caused all sorts of trouble, for obvious reasons.

Two shillings and six pence was called "half a Crown"

But here it is not about divided Crowns,

Two or more cannot wear the same Crown.

Nice try CA, but no cigar.

 

[Catherineanne]

Two shillings and six pence was called "half a Crown"

But here it is not about divided Crowns,

Two or more cannot wear the same Crown.

Nice try CA, but no cigar.

No, they were both crowned to the same Empire. Therefore, there were indeed two kings and one crown.

Funnily enough, the same pertained in Israel. David was anointed King while Saul was still on the throne. Two crowns; one kingdom.

QED.

 

[LoAmmi]

Funnily enough, the same pertained in Israel. David was anointed King while Saul was still on the throne. Two crowns; one kingdom.

In that case, I would say that Saul had already been fired by the King of the King. Not really two rulers at the same time.

 

[Catherineanne]

In that case, I would say that Saul had already been fired by the King of the King. Not really two rulers at the same time.

The question was not about rulers, but about two Kings and one crown.

What do the Jewish scriptures say on this? Are they the same as ours?

http://biblehub.com/kjv/1_samuel/16.htm

 

[LoAmmi]

The very chapter before:
26And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

Saul was fired at that point. That he still held the position a little longer in time doesn't really matter; he has already been fired by the Lord.

 

[single eye]

Isaiah 1:
11 What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt-offerings of rams
and the fat of fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.




16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17 learn to do good;
seek justice,
rescue the oppressed,
defend the orphan,
plead for the widow.

18 Come now, let us argue it out,
says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be like snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.



Psalm 51:
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
16 For you have no delight in sacrifice;
if I were to give a burnt-offering, you would not be pleased.
17 The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.


It's possible you might be a bit mistaken about all this blood atonement in the Tanach. Seems like it's quite possible to atone without a single drop of blood. (There are plenty more quotes that show this)

Or, the gift of grace makes atonement irrelevant.

 

[enigmadi]

im asking this question because there are many who believe that Adam is a dirty dog. Here is my reasoning to why they are not and were following the plan of God. Adam and Eve were placed in the garden of Eden. They were innocent of knowledge of good and evil. Satan was allowed to tempt them and Eve partook of the fruit and gave it to Adam. I believe that Adam and Eve disobeyed Gods law to not eat the fruit. God had told them not to eat of the fruit or they would die. Since there had not yet had death enter into the garden did they understand what the consequences of their choice? Since they did not know good and evil, could Adam and Eve understood what the law was and the consequences? They did disobey and as a result death came into the world. Sin also came into the world because of imperfection. I believe that to justice it does not matter if someone disobeys having full knowledge and understanding of the law broken or if someone is innocent of the law. It is still disobedience and there are consequences that must come as a result. The punishment is the same. Logic dictates that this was Gods plan all along because why would he allow satan to tempt them? Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil for them to be tempted. I believe that God wanted Adam to eat the fruit so mortality would come to this earth as well so we could know good from evil. To experience the opposites of life so we could continue to progress. So to me Adam and Eve did not sin. They did transgress Gods law which had the same punishment.

Good questions! I believe that transgressing God IS sin. God could have enforced His will but He gave us the gift...and responsibility...of choice. What seems logical is that everyone would choose GOD but, because of Adam and Eve's choice, sin (transgressing God) entered the world through the deceit of satan. (Genesis 3: 1- 7 [http://www.scripturestudies.com/Vol10/J10/ot.html]; Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--") It continues today (some would say "accelerating") but God gave us the option of Life in Christ.

 

[LoAmmi]

Or, the gift of grace makes atonement irrelevant.

I'm sorry, people tell me that the whole Jesus thing was for atonement. Seems to be relevant to Christianity.

 

[enigmadi]

I do not accept the original sin idea either:

Would Adam and Eve have been the best all human (not divine) beings, which could be cratered?

Would there genes have been as good as genes could be made since no mutations would have occurred in them?

Adam at least is described as being “very good” by God’s standard, so would that be as good as a being could be created?

Who raised (or programmed) Adam and Eve to adulthood?

Who taught Adam and Eve the meaning of all the words God would use (including the word “die”)?

If Adam and Eve were not the best human representatives than the fact that better humans were not given the opportunity to live in the Garden is unfair.

Just because Adam and Eve did not know “good and evil” (which is something they did not need to know at the time) does not mean they did not know: “right and wrong”. I may be wrong to play next to a cliff but is it evil?

There is a ton of stuff Adam and Eve and all of us learn from their Garden experience and some needed to be learned through experience early on. People even today will at some point in their life ask: “How could a Loving God allow this____ tragedy to happen”? What they are really asking for is: “why are we not all in a Garden type situation no: tragedies, hardship, illness or death.

The problem is as Adam and Eve have shown us is: the Garden is a lousy place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

Good point about good/evil and right/wrong...

 

[1213]

im asking this question because there are many who believe that Adam is a dirty dog. Here is my reasoning to why they are not and were following the plan of God. Adam and Eve were placed in the garden of Eden. They were innocent of knowledge of good and evil. Satan was allowed to tempt them and Eve partook of the fruit and gave it to Adam. I believe that Adam and Eve disobeyed Gods law to not eat the fruit. God had told them not to eat of the fruit or they would die. Since there had not yet had death enter into the garden did they understand what the consequences of their choice? Since they did not know good and evil, could Adam and Eve understood what the law was and the consequences? ...

I have understood that sin is to reject God, or live without God. A&E rejected God before they ate the fruit.

If they didn’t understand, they should have asked directly from God more about the matter. It is stupid thing to do something that person doesn’t understand fully.

 

[The Kayay Guy]

Yes, Adam and Eve sinned. They both "missed the mark", veered off course, disobeyed God, because they doubted the truthfulness of God's word. The "fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" is a metaphor which applies to you and me and every human being who ever lived, including Jesus. Yes, Jesus was tempted by this same "fruit" but did not yield to the temptation as Adam and Eve did. This speaks to Jesus not being born of Adam's seed as you and I are, he did not inherit Adam's nature. Unlike us, Jesus was free to choose to obey God whereas you and I have been "born in sin" and will sin due to those inherited natural proclivities of our ego pride. We are tempted to possess the KNOWLEDGE of what is good and what is evil. This temptation comes to us under the lie of becoming "like a god." Look around you, look within yourself, look at those you live with who "think they know" and observe how they, and all of us, sit in judgment of others. It is this proclivity of ours to judge others that shows us our fallen nature. Just like Adam and Eve, we all were born innocent, but just like they who bit into the fruit that gave them the knowledge of good and evil, we, too, bite into that same fruit and thereafter judge our fellow man to be evil, wrong, good or what-have-you. This compulsion to judge others is the evidence of our "sin" and shows us [if we are willing to see] our prideful attempt to usurp God. Other evidence of our fall from grace is our irrational emotional reactions of anger, fear, jealously, doubt, insecurity, etc., emotions we have which always point the finger of guilt at others thereby declaring ourselves to be right.., but, in reality, we are only "self-right[eous]." Look around you and you'll see the fingers of everyone pointing at others for being the cause of all the wrong that exists in the world. This is the evidence of mankind's universal guilt and fall from grace. Jesus, however, judged no one. Jesus saw the evil around him but did not react with judgment towards what he saw. He saw the evil being done in the temple and he threw-out the merchants but he did not judge; he took action against the evil but did not sin in the process. Remember, even on the cross he asked God's forgiveness for those who were killing him unjustly, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." Jesus was tempted to be "like God" as we are told when he went into the wilderness and was tempted by evil, but had faith that God's will should be obeyed and that his own will [and self-glory] must be denied. In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus prayed, "... I would that this cup be removed from me, but not my will but thine be done." Adam and Eve sinned and you and I have inherited their nature and proclivity to want to know, and pronounce to others, what is good and what is evil. When we come to the knowledge of truth, however, when we realize we are wrong, we give up [willingly] this desire to pronounce judgments on others and realize we have been wrong [we repent] and rely on God's word [live by faith] as it is revealed to our inner man, to guide us. We become a new creature and are born again with the understanding that it is not within our nature to be a judge of our fellow man. But, remember, giving up judgment does not mean we give up seeing evil and rejecting it, it only means that we do not react with judgmental emotions when we see others who, like those who killed Jesus, do NOT know what they do.

 

[oi_antz]

No, if a person who understood right and wrong were to steal it would be a sin. With a toddler it is simply testing boundaries; sharing; playing; all sorts of options. But it can never be sin. Sin has to include a deliberate intention to do wrong, while knowing for certain that right would mean doing something different. Sin is choice.

You seem happy to admit that babies are not culpable; what makes you think that toddlers are? The age of moral responsibility is rather higher than 2 or 3.

I didn't actually say toddlers are culpable. I said sin is sin whether the one sinning knows it or not. You have a very different definition of sin than I am accustomed to. Do you know of an article etc resource where I can learn more about your perspective of it? Thank you.

 

[danny ski]

No, if a person who understood right and wrong were to steal it would be a sin. With a toddler it is simply testing boundaries; sharing; playing; all sorts of options. But it can never be sin. Sin has to include a deliberate intention to do wrong, while knowing for certain that right would mean doing something different. Sin is choice.

You seem happy to admit that babies are not culpable; what makes you think that toddlers are? The age of moral responsibility is rather higher than 2 or 3.

Agree with the toddler premise. As for the requirement for a deliberate action to qualify as sin, that's not entirely accurate according to the Bible. There is a category of sin called unintentional sins like breaking a commandment due to carelessness, forgetfulness or ignorance.

 

[briquest]

1 Timothy 2 :12
King James Bible

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 

[donfish06]

No, we are not simply spirit. We are flesh and spirit, the same as the Lord.

The Lord ascended in his body, not just in spirit.

He ascended in his glorified body. We will not take this body with us. Our spirit will move to a "new" body which Jesus is preparing.

 

[donfish06]

What I see missing from the list is any indication of the things that only one person can ever have happen while they are King of Israel:

World Peace
Universal Knowledge of HaShem
The Temple built as laid out in Ezekiel
The return of the Exiles to Israel and all Jews living in Israel

Those are prophecies to be fulfilled at a later date. That is the same reason the Jews missed him in the first place.

Ill give you one more, and if you pick this one apart you will pick anything apart. God hasn't given eyes to all to see.

Unless the story of Jesus was COMPLETELY MADE UP, then this HAS to show that His life meant something! Joseph was a perfect type of Christ. His life story so beautifully matches that of Jesus: ( I will admit the first couple could be a stretch, but all of them as a whole paint the picture perfectly!)

1) Joseph was beloved of his father

Jesus was God's "son, in whom He is well pleased"


2) Both Jesus and Joseph prophesied that they would one day rule.
and were hated for it

3) Both were accused of being "dreamers"


4) Joseph was sent by Jacob to "seek on he welfare" of his brothers.

Jesus was sent to his brethren


5) Joseph was hated of his brothers because he was more spiritual

Jesus was hated by his brethren (the Jews) because of his spirituality (among other things)


6) Joseph was rejected by his brothers, and left to die.

The Jews rejected Jesus, sought to kill him


7) Joseph was left for dead by his brothers, cast into a pit for 3 days, before rising out of the pit

Jesus was killed by his brethren, died and was buried before raising again after 3 days


8) Joseph was sold for silver to gentiles

Jesus was betrayed by Judas for silver, to the Roman guard, also gentiles


9) Both were stripped of their clothing


10) Joseph became a servant in Potiphar's (sp?) house

Jesus humbled himself and became a servant to humanity


11) Ever thing Joseph did prospered

Jesus never failed and was fruitful in his ministry


12) Joseph was falsely accused

Jesus was falsely accused by 2 witnesses


13) Joseph resisted temptation when Potiphar's wife came to him

Jesus resisted temptation when Satan tempted him


14) Joseph was cast in to prison, with another prisoner on either side

Jesus was put on the cross, with thieves on either side


15) Joseph prophesied one of the 2 would be delivered

Jesus told the thief that he would be in paradise


16) Joseph was raised from prison, and placed on the right hand of Pharaoh

Jesus was resurrected and took his place on the right hand of the Father


17) All who approached Pharaoh had to come through Joseph

We must approach God through Jesus


18) All people were commanded to bow to Joseph

"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord..."


19) Pharaoh gave Joseph a gentile bride

God has given Jesus a gentile bride


20) Joseph was behind a veil, hidden from his brothers

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God has "hidden" Jesus from the Jews


21) Joseph commands his gentile wife to leave, and he reveals himself to his brothers.

Jesus will rapture his bride, and then reveal himself to his brethren, the Jews


22) Josephs brothers were scared when they saw who he was, but he told them not to fear, that it was all supposed to happen in order for him to save them.

Zec 12:10 ... and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


23) Joseph let his brothers go through tribulation when they thought that they would lose Benjamin

The Jews will go through tribulation


24) Joseph was left for dead in order to be able to save his brothers

Jesus died so that all could live in Him


25) Joseph supplied many (millions?) of people with grain (makes bread) during the drought

Jesus fed the multitude bread & fish

(this one isn’t as cut and dry)

 

[LoAmmi]

Why do I care about "types"? There's nothing in any of the texts I have read that I'm supposed to look for types. I'm not impressed that people can take two stories and show how they are "the same".

Since nothing in the story of Joseph says it is a prophecy for the Messiah, I see no reason to go though it piece by piece.