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We're talking about spiritual death, not physical death. Only those alive at the Resurrection of the Church will not die physically.Just wait and we sinners will die unless Jesus sees us fit to go throught the tribulation and see his second coming
Seems you misunderstand. . .spiritual death and physical death are not connected.You do understand that immortal means "unable to die". You effectively have left Adam with a dead immortal human spirit. It's an oxymoron.
No, that is where the misunderstanding lies.It still doesn't answer the question. Spiritual and physical death are connected we both agree.
Spiritual death does not mean death of the immortal human spirit, which cannot die,I wasn't talking about how we are born spiritually, I'm talking about believers who have eternal life and don't die spiritually when we sin. Having eternal life is what guarantees we will never die spiritually. (Jn3:15,16) If Adam had eternal life when he was created then how could he have died spiritually? You are effectively having one rule for Adam and another rule for the rest of us.
The problem with your misunderstanding is that Jesus showed otherwise in Mt 22:29-32:1 Timothy 6:15-16 King James Version
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
immortal spirit defies the above biblical statement
As far as I have seen. They will have everlasting life... Always in constant contact with eternal life. No evil will be known to them.Does this mean OT saints did not have eternal life?
Spiritual death is God's denial of giving us a human spirit as long as we remain fallen and not redeemed.Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, which cannot die.
Spiritual death is the absence of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit, and which does not affect physical life.
Not in orthodox Christianity. . .nor in Lk 8:53-55.Spiritual death is God's denial of giving us a human spirit as long as we remain fallen and not redeemed.
Not in orthodox Christianity. . .nor in Lk 8:53-55.
You are conflating spiritual death, and what happens to a believer when they die?Not in orthodox Christianity. . .nor in Lk 8:53-55.
You can keep saying that till the cows come home but it doesn't make it so.Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, which cannot die.
Spiritual death is the absence of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit, and which does not affect physical life.
You said the following but now you say the two deaths are not connected? It isn't that I misunderstand what you say Clare, your words simply don't add up.Spiritual death and physical death are not connected.
Spiritual death does not mean losing eternal life as that is the "antidote" to spiritual death. (Rom.6:23) If you have eternal life you cannot die.Spiritual death does not mean death of the immortal human spirit, which cannot die,
it means absence of God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit, which is what Adam lost; i.e., eternal life.
Two different kinds of death is being referenced. When Adam sinned, the sin itself broke the relationship he had with God (spiritual death). But God in His divine wisdom permitted Adam to become mortal and suffer physical death as well. Glen 3:19. His plan is not fully realized until Christ enters this Universe by being Incarnated by the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit by taking on our human natures and by His death and resurrection overcomes our physical death and in the eschaton we (mankind) will be raised to incorruptibility and immortality. The permanent problem of sin was solved by Christ sacrifice for sin. So when we sin, which is spiritual death, we can be restored to Christ by confession and remission of sin. Which is why those that live in sin or return to sin are separated from God, but as long as one lives in this world, one can believe/faith, repent and be restored to a union with Christ.Again it fails to answer .. we sin and don't die. Adam sinned and died. Why? What's the difference?
I agree with what you have said here but it doesn't really explain if Adam had eternal life or not. This thread arose because someone was claiming that "spiritual death is loss of eternal life". But that got me to thinking "if the antithesis to spiritual death is eternal life (and it is according to Rom.6:23), then how could Adam have died spiritually?" This is what led me to believe Adam did not have eternal life.Two different kinds of death is being referenced. When Adam sinned, the sin itself broke the relationship he had with God (spiritual death). But God in His divine wisdom permitted Adam to become mortal and suffer physical death as well. Glen 3:19. His plan is not fully realized until Christ enters this Universe by being Incarnated by the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit by taking on our human natures and by His death and resurrection overcomes our physical death and in the eschaton we (mankind) will be raised to incorruptibility and immortality. The permanent problem of sin was solved by Christ sacrifice for sin. So when we sin, which is spiritual death, we can be restored to Christ by confession and remission of sin. Which is why those that live in sin or return to sin are separated from God, but as long as one lives in this world, one can believe/faith, repent and be restored to a union with Christ.
Jesus presented an immortal human spirit in the unredeemed rich man (Lk 16:22-23), whose human immortal spirit was in hell.Tell us what's wrong with this I said...
Spiritual death is God's denial of giving us a human spirit as long as we remain fallen and not redeemed.
Where do we find it historically?It is orthodox theology.
Adam was created eternal and was in union/relationship with God. Man was created to be in union with God ever conforming more to His likeness.I agree with what you have said here but it doesn't really explain if Adam had eternal life or not. This thread arose because someone was claiming that "spiritual death is loss of eternal life". But that got me to thinking "if the antithesis to spiritual death is eternal life (and it is according to Rom.6:23), then how could Adam have died spiritually?" This is what led me to believe Adam did not have eternal life.
So far no-one has been able to give a satisfactory answer to that particular problem.
No. . .I am presenting the immortal spirit in the unredeemed (Lk 16:22-23).You are conflating spiritual death, and what happens to a believer when they die?
I agree with what you have said here but it doesn't really explain if Adam had eternal life or not. This thread arose because someone was claiming that "spiritual death is loss of eternal life". But that got me to thinking "if the antithesis to spiritual death is eternal life (and it is according to Rom.6:23), then how could Adam have died spiritually?" This is what led me to believe Adam did not have eternal life.
So far no-one has been able to give a satisfactory answer to that particular problem.
I suggest that you take it up with Jesus in Lk 16:22-23, where he presents the immortal spirit of the unredeemed rich man.You can keep saying that till the cows come home but it doesn't make it so.
The human spirit doesn't die. My stance from the time we started discussing this (in the other threads) has been we do not have a human spirit apart from faith in Christ.
Eternal can not be created. Eternal life can only be given as a gift.Adam was created eternal and was in union/relationship with God.
How does that change anything. Adam was created to be eternal. He was not created to live a short duration and be destroyed.Eternal can not be created. Eternal life can only be given as a gift.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23
We need to better understand what these words mean or we will be in confusion.
We have been given the gift of eternal life. We have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit. "Given eternal life."
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38
The Holy Spirit is God.
God is eternal life!
We are given the *gift* of the Holy Spirit.
Hence.. we have been given "eternal life."
grace and peace ..........
No. . .I am presenting the immortal spirit in the unredeemed (Lk 16:22-23).
He was created to be everlasting. Eternal life is God's life. God was never created. Adam was.How does that change anything. Adam was created to be eternal.
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