Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

timothyu · Mar 5, 2023

One thing that is plain is that mankind was a beta version otherwise God wouldn't have tested us by giving us a choice of directions. Having already had immortal angels go rogue, how likely is it that He would give a beta version the same immorality right off the bat. If God had wanted perfection He would have stuck with Himself, but where is the entertainment in that?

Mark Quayle · Mar 5, 2023

timothyu said:
One thing that is plain is that mankind was a beta version otherwise God wouldn't have tested us by giving us a choice of directions. Having already had immortal angels go rogue, how likely is it that He would give a beta version the same immorality right off the bat. If God had wanted perfection He would have stuck with Himself, but where is the entertainment in that?

You really want to say that God ever did not know what he is doing? Or that he made mistakes? Do you even understand what is implied by the Gospel? You think God made us for his entertainment? You think God is not satisfied in himself?

timothyu · Mar 5, 2023

God would have been bored without surrounding Himself first in Heaven then in our universe and who knows what/where else. And how predictable is a unit that is made to have choice. The whole idea is to see which way it will go otherwise why give the choice? Either way wouldn't have mattered because it was only the beginning of a new direction. The outlaws of Heaven already were doomed to imprisonment. We were not and fortunately, not being immortal, to be given one more chance at choice while alive... Kingdom or the world we have made for ourselves in our own image

sawdust · Mar 5, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
I don't think it is to your credit that you have this much gall, as to claim that what you believe was of such integrity as to be attributable to demonstration by the Holy Spirit. I'd be real careful there, if I was you. You are saying that your use of Scripture is THE interpretation it deserves. To quote Job's sarcasm: "No doubt you are the [man], and wisdom will die with you."

And it is considerably insulting to insinuate that I am unable to receive it because I have no such work of the Holy Spirit in me. It doesn't just smack of arrogant self-importance, but of delusion. You imply that the Spirit of God would tell me no different concerning those verses. Really??? Have you no notion that your own pre-conceptions and biases play into your take on any subject?

The kindest thing I can think of to say to you at this point is that you must not be able to, or are too lazy to, or don't think it worth your time to, go to the trouble of showing me from Scripture your construction above, that Adam post-Eden had no spirit. But I think you are unable to.

That is not what I was saying. Correlation does not mean causation as they say. It may be I could have said it better but can you deny that no-one can know the truth apart from the Holy Spirit? Whatever truth you or I know we know by the grace of God through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Maybe I am right, maybe you are right, maybe none of us are right, the point is you asked me to explain what I believe and what I believe using scripture has taken 50 years to get to.

I wasn't insinuating you don't have the Spirit. I was saying no amount of scripture posting will reveal the truth in and of itself.

Did you go back and read post#98? If you had you would have realised I don't believe Adam had no spirit post-Eden.

You are right about one thing. I don't think it worth my time. My time is short. It would simply take far too long to go through everything I have learned. I have already said enough for you to understand why I believe Adam's spiritual death was his human spirit returning to God and then being restored when the animal skins were applied as this is a fore-shadowing of Christ's sacrifice. Whether I am right or not, only the Lord can judge and we will all have to wait for His evaluation.

GenemZ · Mar 5, 2023

Clare73 said:
Adam's physical body was not dead to God while he continued to live for hundreds of years.

Let alone Adam? Nor, was Cain. For God was making apparent manifestations to men back then.

Now believers must know God by means of the Spirit. Seeing the invisible in our spirit and soul by faith.

Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed;

blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29

Today the spiritually dead are "dead to God." It must now be spiritual and by faith.

grace and peace ..........................

sawdust · Mar 5, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
It seems fair to say that, pre-fall, God imparted his own divine eternal life to Adam's immortal spirit, though I'm not sure there is Scriptural warrant to attest to that.

Exactly, no scripture to warrant the assumption.

Mark Quayle said:
My way of reasoning concerning that would be —what other kind of life would God impart to Adam's immortal spirit?

He didn't impart any form of life into Adam's spirit. The human spirit is a type of life, namely spiritual life, generated by God the Spirit. The very basis of the word means breath and breath gives life.

GenemZ · Mar 5, 2023

Clare73 said:
Read it again. . .stop the nonsense.

Sibling rivalry manifests even in the family of God.

Some only find being disagreeable as being agreeable to their feelings. They love conflict.
Its a ploy to wear down the one who wishes to be reasonable.

I have the Comforter dealing with that issue. And, patience by grace, that allows me to be seen by another as being stupid when I know better.

So be it for you...

GenemZ · Mar 5, 2023

sawdust said:
He didn't impart any form of life into Adam's spirit. The human spirit is a type of life, namely spiritual life, generated by God the Spirit. The very basis of the word means breath and breath gives life.

Then the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed
into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7

"A living soul?"

The Hebrew does not say that the Lord breathed into the nostrils the "breath of life."

Its in the plural. "Lives." 'Breath of lives." Why does Genesis 2:7 read חַיִּ֑ים plural rather than singular

What was breathed into the nostrils to make Adam to become a living soul?

Both his soul and a human spirit entered simultaneously. Soul life and spirit life! Plural!

Since Adam's body was sinless?

God could make Adam to be 'spiritually alive.' He did not need regeneration at that point since he was unfallen.

Breath of LIVES, making Adam to be both soul and human spirit = a living soul!

grace and peace!

Mark Quayle · Mar 5, 2023

timothyu said:
God would have been bored without surrounding Himself first in Heaven then in our universe and who knows what/where else. And how predictable is a unit that is made to have choice. The whole idea is to see which way it will go otherwise why give the choice? Either way wouldn't have mattered because it was only the beginning of a new direction. The outlaws of Heaven already were doomed to imprisonment. We were not and fortunately, not being immortal, to be given one more chance at choice while alive... Kingdom or the world we have made for ourselves in our own image

How long was God bored before creating? Really? What do you know about God to say he would have been bored? You are anthropomorphizing God, which we are prohibited from doing. He is not like us.

timothyu · Mar 5, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
ow long was God bored before creating? Really? What do you know about God to say he would have been bored? You are anthropomorphizing God, which we are prohibited from doing. He is not like us.

Ok He would have been quite happy surround by absolutely nothing for eternity, all that wisdom going to waste

Mark Quayle · Mar 5, 2023

sawdust said:
That is not what I was saying. Correlation does not mean causation as they say. It may be I could have said it better but can you deny that no-one can know the truth apart from the Holy Spirit? Whatever truth you or I know we know by the grace of God through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Maybe I am right, maybe you are right, maybe none of us are right, the point is you asked me to explain what I believe and what I believe using scripture has taken 50 years to get to.

I wasn't insinuating you don't have the Spirit. I was saying no amount of scripture posting will reveal the truth in and of itself.

Did you go back and read post#98? If you had you would have realised I don't believe Adam had no spirit post-Eden.

You are right about one thing. I don't think it worth my time. My time is short. It would simply take far too long to go through everything I have learned. I have already said enough for you to understand why I believe Adam's spiritual death was his human spirit returning to God and then being restored when the animal skins were applied as this is a fore-shadowing of Christ's sacrifice. Whether I am right or not, only the Lord can judge and we will all have to wait for His evaluation.

Very well, then. If Adam's human spirit returning to God doesn't mean he had no spirit, until returning to him when the skins were applied, what does it mean? And is this an implication that those who have not been regenerated have no spirit?

Mark Quayle · Mar 5, 2023

timothyu said:
Ok He would have been quite happy surround by absolutely nothing for eternity, all that wisdom going to waste

You've got a lot of studying to do. Start with The Aseity of God and The Simplicity of God. What in the world makes you think that this whole universe of fact means anything to him in comparison with the infinity of his being? God is complete, lacking nothing. And not because he made us.

Clare73 · Mar 5, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
You WOULD hand me this assignment! I'm not quite sure just WHAT you are saying so it is hard to parse. It's usually easier to show what a person is NOT saying than what they ARE saying.
It seems fair to say that, pre-fall, God imparted his own divine eternal life to Adam's immortal spirit, though I'm not sure there is Scriptural warrant to attest to that. My way of reasoning concerning that would be —what other kind of life would God impart to Adam's immortal spirit? And what else can be naturally implied by the fellowship of walking and talking with him? But like I said before, the fact that it is eternal is in its nature. Pre-fall, it definitely did not mean that Adam thus became eternal, nor that his nature was of the same sort as the nature of the Redeemed. He had not been born-again.

Titus 3:5's 'regeneration' παλινγενεσίας, is translated variously, "regeneration", "new birth", "born again" and such. The word is actually more literally, "born again", than the γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν of John 3, which is literally, "be born from above". But regardless, I don't think the term is necessarily referencing a return to some former state, even though in the second part it mentions renewal (not rebirth), both of which, I think, are meant to be by the washing, the cleansing, by the Holy Spirit. I think it is talking about a removal of some operative principle — to

wit, the filth of sin and its rule over the person. But on the other hand, I certainly find no way it rules out a "return to life (eternal, Jn 10:28) which man once had." And I grant it does seem peculiar it would not only mention rebirth, but renewal. I had always considered the 'renewal' to be the continual cleansing work of the Spirit of God in the Redeemed subsequent to regeneration, until I saw what you mention, here. But I don't see how we can make the parallel definite by this passage. At least, not yet, lol. Forgive me if I'm slow to change my mind!

Didn't mean to put you in a jam! . . .and no "forgiveness" needed, you're not a easy "sell."
Thanks so much.

Eternal life:
My warrant for eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit is the words:

1) "rebirth" - returning to the life man once had and then lost, and now all mankind is born without, and condemned (Ro 5:18).
For it was not physical life that was lost and returned, nor did Adam's immortal spirit lose its life,
so since "eternal" life is that into which man is reborn, would that not be the life Adam lost?

2) "son of God" - without eternal life, would Adam have been a son of God? Being born of God in the rebirth makes us sons of God (again?). (Jn1:12-13).

And agreed, "eternal" is about the nature of the life; i.e., divine, which is also everlasting. But it did not make man "eternal."
Only God is eternal.
Eternal life didn't make Adam eternal then, anymore than it makes us eternal now because we have eternal life now (Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14).

Regeneration:
Surely "born from above" and "rebirth" both refer to regeneration, as do both "washing of rebirth" and "renewal by the Holy Spirit,"
however, not implying the necessity of baptism for regeneration in light of the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit therein (Jn 3:7-8).

Now, where are we?

timothyu · Mar 5, 2023

Still be a lonely existence

Mark Quayle · Mar 5, 2023

sawdust said:
Exactly, no scripture to warrant the assumption.

He didn't impart any form of life into Adam's spirit. The human spirit is a type of life, namely spiritual life, generated by God the Spirit. The very basis of the word means breath and breath gives life.

So Adam had no communion, fellowship, with God? Was God not with him at all times? Even when Adam didn't realize it?

GenemZ · Mar 5, 2023

timothyu said:
God would have been bored without surrounding Himself first in Heaven then in our universe and who knows what/where else. And how predictable is a unit that is made to have choice. The whole idea is to see which way it will go otherwise why give the choice? Either way wouldn't have mattered because it was only the beginning of a new direction. The outlaws of Heaven already were doomed to imprisonment. We were not and fortunately, not being immortal, to be given one more chance at choice while alive... Kingdom or the world we have made for ourselves in our own image

Bored?

God is infinite in His glory!

God so loves His glory that he wanted, in love, to have others share in His life. He must have more being alive to celebrate with Him.. because He loves His glory! And, knows they will adore and be in a state of constant celebrations of being alive knowing His glory.

Creating life of men and angels was to God like a father loving to watch his children rejoicing and having them loving for being alive!

But, before that can happen?

God must determine who will be worthy of such a life.

By creating free will in angels and men, God allows these lives to determine for themselves where it is they love... or hate.

Ironically... those proven to be unworthy will be the bored ones with God's life.

In Christ ......................

sawdust · Mar 5, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Very well, then. If Adam's human spirit returning to God doesn't mean he had no spirit, until returning to him when the skins were applied, what does it mean? And is this an implication that those who have not been regenerated have no spirit?

I'm not sure I understand what you have said here. Adam was created spirit, soul and body. When he sinned his spirit returned to God because our human spirit is something of the nature of God (Jn.3:6) just like our flesh is of the same nature as our parents. Because he believed the lie, his soul was darkened, his flesh corrupted (sin nature) and his spirit could not abide within that corruption ergo it returned to God who gave it. That which is of the light cannot abide with darkness. At that point Adam was spiritually dead, no spirit. The only way for the restoration of the human spirit is on the basis of payment for sin being made which, Christ made from the foundation of the earth. Ergo, when God clothed them with the animal skins, we see a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice and in that Adam was restored, his spirit was returned so now he was spiritually alive aqain.

The human spirit is the apparatus by which we perceive spiritual matters. This is why the soulish man cannot discern spiritual matters, he has no spirit. He is spiritually dead. (1Cor.2:14) It's like God is talking to a brick wall in the unregenerate.

sawdust · Mar 5, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
So Adam had no communion, fellowship, with God? Was God not with him at all times? Even when Adam didn't realize it?

I don't understand how you get that from what I said? The human spirit is the life we need to comprehend God. You don't need another type of life to discern spiritual matters. You don't need another type of life inserted into the spirit in order for it to do what God designed it for.

timothyu · Mar 5, 2023

God was with Cain and Abel after the fall.

Mark Quayle · Mar 5, 2023

Clare73 said:
Didn't mean to put you in a jam! . . .and no "forgiveness" needed, you're not a easy "sell."
Thanks so much.

Eternal life:
My warrant for eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit is the words
1) "rebirth" - returning to the life man once had and then lost, and now all mankind is born without, and condemned (Ro 5:18).
For it was not physical life that was lost and returned, nor did Adam's immortal spirit lose its life,
so since "eternal" life is that into which man is reborn, would that not be the life Adam lost?

As one of my blood brothers would say, You are a poet! You have pointed out a pattern I hadn't considered in the matter. Well done!

Nevertheless, I still don't see the 're-' part of 'reborn' to be in itself a reference to what was lost, but a direct reference to second birth. But the fact that what was lost is regained, is undeniable. And I'm not past admitting and enjoying God's many plays on words/concepts.

Clare73 said:
2) "son of God" - without eternal life, would Adam have been a son of God? Being born of God in the rebirth makes us sons of God (again?). (Jn1:12-13).

As most people conceive of the term, yes. Even the angels are apparently called that, though I don't think it means at all the same thing as how we are sons of God, and nothing like how Christ is THE Son of God. And, of course, you and I both agree there is a huge difference between the notion of 'sons of God' in reference to mere humanity (if the term is even valid there), and the sons of God that will be revealed, for which all creation waits in eager anticipation.

Clare73 said:
And agreed, "eternal" is about the nature of the life; i.e., divine, which is also everlasting. But it did not make man "eternal."
Only God is eternal.
Eternal life didn't make Adam eternal then, anymore than it makes us eternal now because we have eternal life now (Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14).

Regeneration:
Surely "born from above" and "rebirth" both refer to regeneration, as do both "washing of rebirth" and "renewal by the Holy Spirit,"
however, not implying the necessity of baptism for regeneration in light of the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit therein (Jn 3:7-8).

Now, where are we?

If I remember right, we were trying to pull @sawdust out of a strawman, or something like that. Not sure.

Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

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