Devil's Dictionary of Evolution

[AV1611VET]

As soon as you use a solar powered flashlight the flashlight is not a closed system. Why is this so hard to understand?

No kidding?

I almost put an "(open system)" after my remark, but I assumed the reader would know that.

Batteries, in my example, represent a closed system; and the sun, in my example, represents an open system.

 

[AV1611VET]

In my experience, asking an engineer about physics is like asking a dentist about gastroenterology.

Kinda like discussing the definition of "faith" with an atheist, isn't it?

 

[Split Rock]

Just a few weeks ago I had a talk with an experienced engineer with a degree in physics, and he is a creationist. His main argument for creation was the violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, he kept saying that life decreases entropy...It took me like half an hour to explain to him how increasing entropy and 2nd law applies to closed systems, and a decrease in entropy in an open system, along with a greater increase in entropy in the bigger system is perfectly compatible with the 2nd law. And I failed at physics in highschool, and he supposedly is an expert in physics .

That's pretty sad...

 

[Loudmouth]

No kidding?

I almost put an "(open system)" after my remark, but I assumed the reader would know that.

Batteries, in my example, represent a closed system; and the sun, in my example, represents an open system.

Using your analogy, evolution will continue to occur as long as the sun shines, correct?

 

[Loudmouth]

Kinda like discussing the definition of "faith" with an atheist, isn't it?

Discussing faith with an atheist is like discussing snake oil with a doctor.

 

[AV1611VET]

Using your analogy, evolution will continue to occur as long as the sun shines, correct?

That is correct.

 

[AV1611VET]

Discussing faith with an atheist is like discussing snake oil with a doctor.

I said the definition of "faith".

 

[Loudmouth]

I said the definition of "faith".

Like the definition of snake oil?

 

[AV1611VET]

Like the definition of snake oil?

Snake oil = a topical extracted from the Enhydris chinensis, used to treat arthritis.

 

[Nick665]

I see his point though, and I agree with it.

If life doesn't return the same amount of energy it acquires to function, then it is using up energy -- period.

I might turn a flashlight on (closed system) and watch the batteries run down; but even if it was a solar-powered flashlight, it is still not return the same amount of energy back to the universe than it is taking.

Yeah man whatever. Decreasing entropy in an open system doesnt violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, period. Case closed.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yeah man whatever. Decreasing entropy in an open system doesnt violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, period. Case closed.

Yeah man whatever. Did I say it did?

 

[Nick665]

You said that you agree with his point. I said that his point was the violation of the 2nd law. There is no violation of the 2nd law.

 

[AV1611VET]

You said that you agree with his point. I said that his point was the violation of the 2nd law. There is no violation of the 2nd law.

Fair enough.

 

[Loudmouth]

Snake oil = a topical extracted from the Enhydris chinensis, used to treat arthritis.

"However, the most common usage of the phrase is as a derogatory term for quack medicine. The expression is also applied metaphorically to any product with exaggerated marketing but questionable and/or unverifiable quality or benefit."
Snake oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Asking an atheist about the definition of faith is like asking a doctor about the definition of snake oil. You will not get the answer you are looking for, but it is the right answer.

Asking a creationist about the definition of evolution is like asking a politician about the definition of honesty, asking Bernie Madoff about the definition of sound investments, and asking a snake oil salesman about the definition of quality health care.

 

[lucaspa]

I see his point though, and I agree with it.

If life doesn't return the same amount of energy it acquires to function, then it is using up energy -- period.

AV, entropy and energy are not the same things. Entropy is a subset of energy: entropy is energy available to do work.

f

I might turn a flashlight on (closed system) and watch the batteries run down; but even if it was a solar-powered flashlight, it is still not return the same amount of energy back to the universe than it is taking.

Actually, it is. The energy in the batteries is returning to the universe. However, that energy is in the form of photons that are not capable of doing any work.

The batteries represent low entropy. The energy in them can heat a filament to produce visible light (the work). However, the filament is also producing a large amount of "random" heat, which is not work. The visible light photons, in turn, are striking objects. Some of those photons are reflected back to our eyes (the work). Most of those photons, however, interact with the matter they strike and are eventually turned into heat unable to do work.

The photons that hit your eyes interacts with chemicals in your retinal cells, producing depolarization of nerves into your brain and depolarization of neurons in your brain. All these signals, too, eventually go to random energy unable to do work.

So, again, the energy stays constant. If it did not, that would be a violation of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. But the entropy or portion of that energy able to do work, is lost.

It is made more confusing by the terms. The more energy available to do work is called "lower" entropy. When there is little energy to do work, that is called "increased" entropy. So, when entropy increases there is less energy available to do work. When entropy is low, then there is a lot of energy available to do work.

 

[lucaspa]

Asking an atheist about the definition of faith is like asking a doctor about the definition of snake oil. You will not get the answer you are looking for, but it is the right answer.

Not necessarily. I have seen most atheists misdefine "faith". It's in their interest to misdefine it, just as it is in the interest of the creationists at the Missouri Center for Creation to misdefine terms in evolution: The Devil's Dictionary of Evolution For All True Scholars

Asking a creationist about the definition of evolution is like asking a politician about the definition of honesty, asking Bernie Madoff about the definition of sound investments, and asking a snake oil salesman about the definition of quality health care.

To say that atheists are different from all these examples when it comes to "faith" is a case of Special Pleading.

 

[lucaspa]

Using your analogy, evolution will continue to occur as long as the sun shines, correct?

It's more accurate to say life can occur.

Yes, when the sun has used all its nuclear fuel, life in the solar system will be impossible. When the universe has reached maximum entropy (heat death), then life anywhere in the universe will be impossible.

Now, if somewhere an environment stabilizes and remains stable, then evolution will stop whether the sun still shines or not. You see, evolution has some requirements above and beyond the existence of living organisms.

 

[sandwiches]

Just a few weeks ago I had a talk with an experienced engineer with a degree in physics, and he is a creationist. His main argument for creation was the violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, he kept saying that life decreases entropy...It took me like half an hour to explain to him how increasing entropy and 2nd law applies to closed systems, and a decrease in entropy in an open system, along with a greater increase in entropy in the bigger system is perfectly compatible with the 2nd law. And I failed at physics in highschool, and he supposedly is an expert in physics .

The more I interact with creationists, the more convinced I am that to believe what they do, they must lie to themselves, make a concession in logic, be at least partially ignorant on the topic, or quite simply be stupid. Name a creationist, any creationist, and one of those situations will apply.

 

[sandwiches]

Not necessarily. I have seen most atheists misdefine "faith". It's in their interest to misdefine it, just as it is in the interest of the creationists at the Missouri Center for Creation to misdefine terms in evolution: The Devil's Dictionary of Evolution For All True Scholars

To say that atheists are different from all these examples when it comes to "faith" is a case of Special Pleading.

What is it called when one doesn't accept claims for which one doesn't have evidence?

 

[Loudmouth]

Not necessarily. I have seen most atheists misdefine "faith".

Faith is a belief in the absence of evidence, as it applies to religious matters.

It's in their interest to misdefine it,

How so? Atheists can have faith as well, it just doesn't involve a supernatural deity.

To say that atheists are different from all these examples when it comes to "faith" is a case of Special Pleading.

In my experience, they are different. Perhaps your experiences differ from mine.