Deutercanonical Citations in the New Testament

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On to the fourteenth pair of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books by Jesus in the Gospels -

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.



Luke 1:39 Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”


This passage is the famous visit by Mary to Elizabeth where John the Baptist leaped in the womb of Elizabeth.


12* When the citizens heard her voice, they hurried down to their city gate and summoned the elders of the city. 13All the people, from the least to the greatest, hurriedly assembled, for her return seemed unbelievable. They opened the gate and welcomed the two women. They made a fire for light and gathered around the two. 14Judith urged them with a loud voice: “Praise God, give praise! Praise God, who has not withdrawn his mercy from the house of Israel, but has shattered our enemies by my hand this very night!” 15Then she took the head out of the bag, showed it to them, and said: “Here is the head of Holofernes, the ranking general of the Assyrian forces, and here is the canopy under which he lay in his drunkenness. The Lord struck him down by the hand of a female!* 16Yet I swear by the Lord, who has protected me in the way I have walked, that it was my face that seduced Holofernes to his ruin, and that he did not defile me with sin or shame.”
17All the people were greatly astonished. They bowed down and worshiped God, saying with one accord, “Blessed are you, our God, who today have humiliated the enemies of your people.” 18Then Uzziah said to her, “Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the leader of our enemies.c 19Your deed of hope will never be forgotten by those who recall the might of God.d 20May God make this redound to your everlasting honor, rewarding you with blessings, because you risked your life when our people were being oppressed, and you averted our disaster, walking in the straight path before our God.” And all the people answered, “Amen! Amen!”e

Judith 13:12 When the citizens heard her voice, they hurried down to their city gate and summoned the elders of the city. 13All the people, from the least to the greatest, hurriedly assembled, for her return seemed unbelievable. They opened the gate and welcomed the two women. They made a fire for light and gathered around the two. 14Judith urged them with a loud voice: “Praise God, give praise! Praise God, who has not withdrawn his mercy from the house of Israel, but has shattered our enemies by my hand this very night!” 15Then she took the head out of the bag, showed it to them, and said: “Here is the head of Holofernes, the ranking general of the Assyrian forces, and here is the canopy under which he lay in his drunkenness. The Lord struck him down by the hand of a female! 16Yet I swear by the Lord, who has protected me in the way I have walked, that it was my face that seduced Holofernes to his ruin, and that he did not defile me with sin or shame.”
17All the people were greatly astonished. They bowed down and worshiped God, saying with one accord, “Blessed are you, our God, who today have humiliated the enemies of your people.” 18Then Uzziah said to her, “Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the leader of our enemies. 19Your deed of hope will never be forgotten by those who recall the might of God. 20May God make this redound to your everlasting honor, rewarding you with blessings, because you risked your life when our people were being oppressed, and you averted our disaster, walking in the straight path before our God.” And all the people answered, “Amen! Amen!” 12 When the citizens heard her voice, they hurried down to their city gate and summoned the elders of the city. 13All the people, from the least to the greatest, hurriedly assembled, for her return seemed unbelievable. They opened the gate and welcomed the two women. They made a fire for light and gathered around the two. 14Judith urged them with a loud voice: “Praise God, give praise! Praise God, who has not withdrawn his mercy from the house of Israel, but has shattered our enemies by my hand this very night!” 15Then she took the head out of the bag, showed it to them, and said: “Here is the head of Holofernes, the ranking general of the Assyrian forces, and here is the canopy under which he lay in his drunkenness. The Lord struck him down by the hand of a female!* 16Yet I swear by the Lord, who has protected me in the way I have walked, that it was my face that seduced Holofernes to his ruin, and that he did not defile me with sin or shame.”


The passage in Judith describes Judith's reception by the people after she had returned with the bloody head of Holofernes which she had cut off his body after killing him. It is reminiscent of Deborah in the book of Judges. It would require a great deal of imagination to associate either of these passages with that in Luke 1.

 

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On to the fifteenth pair of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books by Jesus in the Gospels -

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said:
“My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 “For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave;
For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.
49 “For the Mighty One has done great things for me;
And holy is His name.
50 “And His mercy is upon generation after generation
Toward those who fear Him.
51 “He has done mighty deeds with His arm;
He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart.
52 “He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
And has exalted those who were humble.
53 “He has filled the hungry with good things;
And sent away the rich empty-handed.
54 “He has given help to Israel His servant,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and his descendants forever.”


Mary's magnificat is not unlike that of Hannah in I Samuel 2:1-10.

Sirach 10:12 Pride has its beginning when a person abandons the Lord, his maker. 13 Pride is like a fountain pouring out sin, and whoever persists in it will be full of wickedness. That is why the Lord brought terrible punishments on some people and completely destroyed them. 14 The Lord has overthrown kings and put humbler people in their place. 15 The Lord has pulled up nations by the roots and established humbler ones in their place. 16 The Lord has overthrown empires and completely devastated their lands. 17 He destroyed some so completely that they are not even remembered any more. 18 The Creator never intended for human beings to be arrogant and violent.

The passage in Sirach is part of a longer discourse regarding God's intervention in human affairs. It has the tone of the Proverbs, being a type of wisdom literature. It can hardly be seen as part of a magnificat.

Thus, it is much more likely that I Samuel 2:1-10 served as a model for Mary's magnificat than Sirach 10:14.

 

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On to the sixteenth pair of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time by Simeon, in the Gospels -

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 2:25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
32 A Light of revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”


This is the famous benediction uttered by Simeon on the occasion of the circumcision of Jesus.


Tobit 11:1 And as they were returning they came to Charan, which is in the midway to Ninive, the eleventh day.
2 And the angel said: Brother Tobias, thou knowest how thou didst leave thy father.
3 If it please thee therefore, let us go before, and let the family follow softly after us, together with thy wife, and with the beasts.
4 And as this their going pleased him, Raphael said to Tobias: Take with thee of the gall of the fish, for it will be necessary. So Tobias took some of that gall and departed.
5 But Anna sat beside the way daily, on the top of a hill, from whence she might see afar off.
6 And while she watched his coming from that place, she saw him afar off, and presently perceived it was her son coming: and returning she told her husband, saying: Behold thy son cometh.
7 And Raphael said to Tobias: As soon as thou shalt come into thy house, forthwith adore the Lord thy God: and giving thanks to him, go to thy father, and kiss him.
8 And immediately anoint his eyes with this gall of the fish, which thou carriest with thee. For be assured that his eyes shall be presently opened, and thy father shall see the light of heaven, and shall rejoice in the sight of thee.
9 Then the dog, which had been with them in the way, ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail.
10 And his father that was blind, rising up, began to run stumbling with his feet: and giving a servant his hand, went to meet his son.
11 And receiving him kissed him, as did also his wife, and they began to weep for joy.
12 And when they had adored God, and given him thanks, they sat down together.
13 Then Tobias taking of the gall of the fish, anointed his father's eyes.
14 And he stayed about half an hour: and a white skin began to come out of his eyes, like the skin of an egg.
15 And Tobias took hold of it, and drew it from his eyes, and immediately he recovered his sight.
16 And they glorified God, both he and his wife and all that knew them.
17 And Tobias said: I bless thee, O Lord God of Israel, because thou hast chastised me, and thou hast saved me: and behold I see Tobias my son.
18 And after seven days Sara his son's wife, and all the family arrived safe, and the cattle, and the camels, and an abundance of money of his wife's: and that money also which he had received of Gabelus:
19 And he told his parents all the benefits of God, which he had done to him by the man that conducted him.
20 And Achior and Nabath the kinsmen of Tobias came, rejoicing for Tobias, and congratulating with him for all the good things that God had done for him.
21 And for seven days they feasted and rejoiced all with great joy.

The passage from Tobit is all about the restoration of the sight Tobias' father using the gall of the fish. Verse 9 is about the happy dog wagging his tail in delight and has absolutely nothing in common with Luke 2:29, nor does anything in the entire chapter.

 

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On to the sixteenth pair of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time by Simeon, in the Gospels -

7b's,
I get the feeling that you are doing this for the exegetical work and not so much as an apologetics track, so I will go ahead and post this. I looked up this list; because I was wondering who came up with it. It appears that a poster on Fisheaters.com called CatholicDad compiled it in 2008.
defend deutro-canonical books

He was reminded in the responses of the errors that people found in it. Some of the items on the list, I have seen before and responded to you about. Many of them are rather nebulous and probably not suited to use in apologetics. It's one of those things where if you are looking for parallels they seem obvious; but hard to defend against someone who does not share your perspective.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 2:29 29
““Now, Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word, for my eyes have seen your salvation,"

Tobit 11:9
Then Anna ran up to her son, embraced him, and said to him, “Now that I have seen you again, son, I am ready to die!” And she sobbed aloud.


This seems to be more of a translation issue. I have quoted from the New American Bible that is one of the translations that can be used in the lectionary. By the way the Tobit verse references the ending of the parable of the prodigal son where the father exclaims something similar to this when his son returns.

 

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7b's,
I get the feeling that you are doing this for the exegetical work and not so much as an apologetics track, so I will go ahead and post this. I looked up this list; because I was wondering who came up with it. It appears that a poster on Fisheaters.com called CatholicDad compiled it in 2008.
defend deutro-canonical books

He was reminded in the responses of the errors that people found in it. Some of the items on the list, I have seen before and responded to you about. Many of them are rather nebulous and probably not suited to use in apologetics. It's one of those things where if you are looking for parallels they seem obvious; but hard to defend against someone who does not share your perspective.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 2:29 29
““Now, Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word, for my eyes have seen your salvation,"

Tobit 11:9
Then Anna ran up to her son, embraced him, and said to him, “Now that I have seen you again, son, I am ready to die!” And she sobbed aloud.


This seems to be more of a translation issue. I have quoted from the New American Bible that is one of the translations that can be used in the lectionary. By the way the Tobit verse references the ending of the parable of the prodigal son where the father exclaims something similar to this when his son returns.

Yes, you are right. My interest has shifted from apologetics to the exegetical side of things. I honestly don't think that the DC is referenced in the NT nor is it necessary that it be referenced. As others have pointed out, there are numerous OT books which are not referenced in the NT which are accepted as being canonical not only by all Christian denominations, but by all the Jewish denominations.

It is a slippery slope for those Catholics who are keen to defend the DC as being canonical when they seek to establish canonicity on the basis of being referenced in the NT.

I hope to return to the interesting list you provided for discussion when I complete the list from Barry.

As for the pairing you discussed, the comparison is quite obvious when the individual verses are taken separately and compared. This is especially so if, as you have pointed out, a particular translation such as the NAS is used. However, when the verses are seen within their respective contexts, then the differences far outweigh the similarities IMO.

 

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On to the seventeenth pair of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time by Jesus, in the Gospels -


Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.


Luke 13:22 And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29 And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.”

This is the famous teaching in which Jesus declares that salvation will be given to those from all nations, not just the Jews.

Baruch 4:30 Take courage, Jerusalem. God, who gave you your name, will now bring comfort to you. 31 Misery will come to those who mistreated you and then rejoiced when you fell. 32 Misery will come to those cities that made your children slaves. Misery will be the fate of Babylon, that city which swallowed up your children. 33 Just as that city rejoiced when you fell and took delight in your ruin, so now she will mourn when she herself is deserted. 34 I will turn her proud boastings into mourning and take away her large population in which she took pride. 35 I, the Eternal God, will send down fire on her, and it will burn for many days. Her ruins will be haunted by demons for a long time to come.
36 Look to the east, Jerusalem, and see the joy that God is bringing to you. 37 Look, your children are coming home, the children that were taken from you. They have been gathered together from the east and from the west by the command of God, the Holy One. And now they are coming home, rejoicing in the glory of God.

This is the famous prophecy from Baruch, which is similar to that given in Isaiah, concerning the destruction of Babylon and the return of Jewish exiles from the Diaspora. Unless one wishes to deny that Jesus intended Gentiles would be partakers of salvation and that he meant that those coming from the north, south, east, and west in Luke 13:29 are only Jews, then the passage from Baruch cannot be considered to have any direct bearing on what Jesus said.

 

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Onward and downward to the eighteenth pair of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time by Jesus, in the Gospels -


Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.


Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


This passage is from the Upper Room discourse and is paralell with Matthew 24, which was also discussed above. Jesus described the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea here.

Sirach 28:12If you blow on a spark, it turns into flame,
if you spit on it, it dies out;
yet both you do with your mouth!
13Cursed be gossips and the double-tongued,
for they destroy the peace of many.
14A meddlesome tongue subverts many,
and makes them refugees among peoples.
It destroys strong cities,
and overthrows the houses of the great.
15A meddlesome tongue drives virtuous women from their homes,
and robs them of the fruit of their toil.
16Whoever heed it will find no rest,
nor will they dwell in peace.
17A blow from a whip raises a welt,
but a blow from the tongue will break bones.
18Many have fallen by the edge of the sword,
but not as many as by the tongue.
19Happy the one who is sheltered from it,
and has not endured its wrath;
Who has not borne its yoke
nor been bound with its chains.
20For its yoke is a yoke of iron,
and its chains are chains of bronze;
21The death it inflicts is an evil death,
even Sheol is preferable to it.


The passage from Sirach is part of a larger set of proverbs which find their paralell with the book of Proverbs. In this particular section the evils of the tongue are described. This most closely resembles James 2 and has virtually no connection to the Upper Room discourse of Jesus in Luke 21.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Here is the list of remaining citations and I will proceed to the second.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord's descriptionof men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as Heanalogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


From the Sermon on the Mount Jesus clearly instructs us to lay up treasures in heaven.



8 Nevertheless, be understanding with those who are poor. Don't keep them waiting for your generosity. 9 The Lord has commanded us to help the poor; don't refuse them the help they need. 10 It is better to lose your money by helping a relative or a friend than to lose it by letting it rust away under a rock somewhere. 11 Use your wealth as the Most High has commanded; this will do you more good than keeping your money for yourself. 12 Count among your treasures the fact that you give to the poor. It will save you from all kinds of trouble 13 and will be a better defense against your enemies than the strongest shield or stoutest spear.


The passage in Sirach echoes various verses from the Proverbs instructing charity to the poor.


Laying up treasure in heaven is not equivalent to charity to the poor. There is no basis for thinking that Jesus had the verses from Sirach in mind when He plainly said that His followers should lay up treasure in heaven.

So what? Does it matter that an OT Book is cited in the NT? Also, does citation of a book in the NT make that book Scriptural? I submit that there are lots of references to non-Scriptural works in the NT, and those books are not canonical, likewise, there are books that are canonical in the OT which are not cited in the NT.
This brings up the question of how the Canon was selected. Remember that the Sadducees had only the Torah.

 

[Root of Jesse]

There are no quotes of the DEUTEROcanonical books in the NT. There are a FEW cases where similar things can be found in each but that has nothing whatsoever to do with a quote. Nor does it have anything whatsoever to do with an endorsement of those DEUTERO books as..... anything.

So what does that indicate? There are several canonical OT books not quoted in the NT, or even alluded to.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes, you are right. My interest has shifted from apologetics to the exegetical side of things. I honestly don't think that the DC is referenced in the NT nor is it necessary that it be referenced. As others have pointed out, there are numerous OT books which are not referenced in the NT which are accepted as being canonical not only by all Christian denominations, but by all the Jewish denominations.

It is a slippery slope for those Catholics who are keen to defend the DC as being canonical when they seek to establish canonicity on the basis of being referenced in the NT.

I hope to return to the interesting list you provided for discussion when I complete the list from Barry.

As for the pairing you discussed, the comparison is quite obvious when the individual verses are taken separately and compared. This is especially so if, as you have pointed out, a particular translation such as the NAS is used. However, when the verses are seen within their respective contexts, then the differences far outweigh the similarities IMO.

Can you name some Catholics who seek to establish canonicity based mostly on being referenced in the NT? Someone of magisterial importance? I believe the Canon is established based on whether it was read during liturgical celebrations, primarily.

 

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So what? Does it matter that an OT Book is cited in the NT? Also, does citation of a book in the NT make that book Scriptural? I submit that there are lots of references to non-Scriptural works in the NT, and those books are not canonical, likewise, there are books that are canonical in the OT which are not cited in the NT.
This brings up the question of how the Canon was selected. Remember that the Sadducees had only the Torah.

It seemed to matter a lot to BarryatLake (and to Sculley and others) that there were multiple references in the New Testament to the deutercanonical books. Given the large number of references in the New Testament to passages in the Old Testament, usually prophetic in nature, it mattered a great deal to the writers of the New Testament to point out the relationship between the two. The absence of references to the DC in the NT is telling if, in fact, Jesus and His disciples considered the DC to be at least equal in significance to the OT.

It also matters a great deal to others who have gone to great effort to compile lists of alleged references of the DC in the NT. Although it appears that their scholarship, at best, is quite sloppy, they have obviously devoted effort to compiling these lists.

Therefore, it behooves anyone who considers the DC to be of equal validity to the OT to determine if, in fact, the writers of the NT also considered them to be of equal significance. The most evident means of making that determination is their usage as citations.

 

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On to the nineteenth pair of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time by Luke -

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.


Luke 24:1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing; 5 and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living One among the dead? 6 He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, 7 saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.” 8 And they remembered His words, 9 and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles. 11 But these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they would not believe them. 12 But Peter got up and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he *saw the linen wrappings only; and he went away to his home, marveling at what had happened.


This is Luke's account of the resurrection. At the tomb the women met two angels in dazzling clothing.




II Maccabees 3:22 While everyone was begging the Lord Almighty to protect the money that had been entrusted to his care, 23 Heliodorus went on with his plan. 24 But at the very moment that he and his bodyguards arrived at the treasury, the Lord of all supernatural powers caused such a vision to appear that everyone who had dared to enter with Heliodorus was panic-stricken and weak with fear at this display of the Lord's power. 25 In the vision they saw a horse and a rider. The horse had a richly decorated bridle, and its rider, dressed in gold armor, was frightening. Suddenly the horse rushed at Heliodorus, then reared up and struck at him with its hoofs. 26 Heliodorus also saw two unusually strong and handsome young men, wearing very fine clothes. They stood on either side of him and beat him unmercifully. 27 He immediately fell to the ground unconscious, and his men put him on a stretcher 28 and carried him out. Only a moment earlier this man had entered the treasury with a large group of men, including all his bodyguards, but now he was being carried away helpless. So they all openly acknowledged the mighty power of God.


The account referenced from II Maccabees 3 concerns Heliodorus and his theft from the Temple treasury. To thwart his theft two unusually strong and handsome men came and beat him senseless. These men hardly seem like angels and certainly are unrelated to the angels at the tomb of Christ, who did not beat the Roman guards senseless.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It seemed to matter a lot to BarryatLake (and to Sculley and others) that there were multiple references in the New Testament to the deutercanonical books. Given the large number of references in the New Testament to passages in the Old Testament, usually prophetic in nature, it mattered a great deal to the writers of the New Testament to point out the relationship between the two. The absence of references to the DC in the NT is telling if, in fact, Jesus and His disciples considered the DC to be at least equal in significance to the OT.

It also matters a great deal to others who have gone to great effort to compile lists of alleged references of the DC in the NT. Although it appears that their scholarship, at best, is quite sloppy, they have obviously devoted effort to compiling these lists.

Therefore, it behooves anyone who considers the DC to be of equal validity to the OT to determine if, in fact, the writers of the NT also considered them to be of equal significance. The most evident means of making that determination is their usage as citations.

What about the fact that there are books of the OT that are virtually ignored by the NT writers? Ecclesiastes, for example. Esther, for another.
Note that I did not say that the Deuterocanon is not referenced by the NT. I believe it is. But so what? If there are OT books we agree on, such as Esther and Ecclesiastes, that are not referenced in the NT, yet are canonical, it must not be true that the reason for considering something canonical is because it was referenced in the NT.
The Deuterocanonical books are canonical because the Church determined them to be so in the fourth century. Why? Because they were in the Septuagint, which Jesus quoted. (I am also not saying that they're canonical because Jesus quoted the Septuagint.) The Church chose the Septuagint, and because of that, the Jews determined a canon which excluded teachings they didn't like. But in the process, they excluded how some of the key feasts in the NT were instituted.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What about the fact that there are books of the OT that are virtually ignored by the NT writers? Ecclesiastes, for example. Esther, for another.
Note that I did not say that the Deuterocanon is not referenced by the NT. I believe it is. But so what? If there are OT books we agree on, such as Esther and Ecclesiastes, that are not referenced in the NT, yet are canonical, it must not be true that the reason for considering something canonical is because it was referenced in the NT.
The Deuterocanonical books are canonical because the Church determined them to be so in the fourth century. Why? Because they were in the Septuagint, which Jesus quoted. (I am also not saying that they're canonical because Jesus quoted the Septuagint.) The Church chose the Septuagint, and because of that, the Jews determined a canon which excluded teachings they didn't like. But in the process, they excluded how some of the key feasts in the NT were instituted.

Actually, your denomination set its canon of scripture at the Council of Trent. However, that is neither here nor there. What matters to most Catholics is not whether something is objectively true or false but whether the Catholic Church has declared it to be true or false. To be certain, for Catholics these things are one and the same, but for non-Catholics these are not identical.

Why some Catholics believe that engaging in apologetics with non-Catholics in regard to the Catholic canon of the Bible is profitable I cannot say. Nevertheless, many Catholics (and Orthodox, as well) do believe that it is important to establish a link between the DC and the NT.

The purpose of this thread, which I stated in the OP, is to examine a list of alleged citations of the DC in the NT graciously provided by BarryatLake. Please feel free to comment on these pairings and my observations, especially if you see that I am distorting them in any way.

Thank you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

On to the twentieth pair of alleged quotations of the deutercanonical books, this time by John -

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


John commences his gospel with a passage which closely parallels Genesis 1:1 (In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.) There has never been any doubt concerning the connection between these two passages.

Wisdom 9:1God of my ancestors, Lord of mercy, you who have made all things by your word
2 And in your wisdom have established humankind
to rule the creatures produced by you,
3 And to govern the world in holiness and righteousness,
and to render judgment in integrity of heart:
4 Give me Wisdom, the consort at your throne,
and do not reject me from among your children;
5 For I am your servant, the child of your maidservant,
a man weak and short-lived
and lacking in comprehension of judgment and of laws.
6 Indeed, though one be perfect among mortals,
if Wisdom, who comes from you, be lacking,
that one will count for nothing.
7 You have chosen me king over your people
and magistrate over your sons and daughters.
8 You have bid me build a temple on your holy mountain
and an altar in the city that is your dwelling place,
a copy of the holy tabernacle which you had established from of old.
9 Now with you is Wisdom, who knows your works
and was present when you made the world;
Who understands what is pleasing in your eyes
and what is conformable with your commands.
10 Send her forth from your holy heavens
and from your glorious throne dispatch her
That she may be with me and work with me,
that I may know what is pleasing to you.
11 For she knows and understands all things,
and will guide me prudently in my affairs
and safeguard me by her glory;
12 Thus my deeds will be acceptable,
and I will judge your people justly
and be worthy of my father’s throne.
13 For who knows God’s counsel,
or who can conceive what the Lord intends?
14 For the deliberations of mortals are timid,
and uncertain our plans.
15 For the corruptible body burdens the soul
and the earthly tent weighs down the mind with its many concerns.
16 Scarcely can we guess the things on earth,
and only with difficulty grasp what is at hand;
but things in heaven, who can search them out?
17Or who can know your counsel, unless you give Wisdom
and send your holy spirit from on high?
18 Thus were the paths of those on earth made straight,
and people learned what pleases you,
and were saved by Wisdom.

Wisdom 9 is the prayer offered to God by Solomon on the occasion of his ascension to the throne of Israel following the death of David. He makes a passing reference to Genesis 1:1 in his opening verse and that is all. John 1:1-3 is a much more explicit example of a reference from Genesis and it is exceedingly doubtful that Wisdom 9 had anything to do with John's reference.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Actually, your denomination set its canon of scripture at the Council of Trent. However, that is neither here nor there. What matters to most Catholics is not whether something is objectively true or false but whether the Catholic Church has declared it to be true or false. To be certain, for Catholics these things are one and the same, but for non-Catholics these are not identical.

Actually, my Church, not denomination, set its canon in the fourth century, while it was legalized at the council of Trent. The Catholic Church declaring something definitively true or false is the same as it being objectively true or false.

Why some Catholics believe that engaging in apologetics with non-Catholics in regard to the Catholic canon of the Bible is profitable I cannot say. Nevertheless, many Catholics (and Orthodox, as well) do believe that it is important to establish a link between the DC and the NT.

I'm not engaging in apologetics. And it is important, but not essential.

The purpose of this thread, which I stated in the OP, is to examine a list of alleged citations of the DC in the NT graciously provided by BarryatLake. Please feel free to comment on these pairings and my observations, especially if you see that I am distorting them in any way.

Thank you.

If I were to try to do that, I might hog the thread. I just wondered why you think it is essential that the NT quote the Septuagint, which contains the Deuterocanoncial books. And I provided examples of entire canonical books in your own version of the OT which are nowhere mentioned in the NT, and asked why they are considered canonical to you. If you want to answer, fine, that would show some honesty on your part. If not, that's fine, too.

 

[Standing Up]

-snip- I just wondered why you think it is essential that the NT quote the Septuagint, which contains the Deuterocanoncial books. And I provided examples of entire canonical books in your own version of the OT which are nowhere mentioned in the NT, and asked why they are considered canonical to you. If you want to answer, fine, that would show some honesty on your part. If not, that's fine, too.

I stumbled upon more recent research that dismantles that old idea.

PS. They're considered canonical not because they're quoted (though that helps), but because of the author. Solomon for Ecclesiastics for example. As well, they were written during the times of the valid lineage of prophets (see OT, NT, Maccabees (that disclaims itself as inspired for that reason), and Josephus).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, my Church, not denomination, set its canon in the fourth century, while it was legalized at the council of Trent. The Catholic Church declaring something definitively true or false is the same as it being objectively true or false.
I'm not engaging in apologetics. And it is important, but not essential.

Apparently St. Jerome was ignorant that his church set its canon to include the DC. He did not consider the DC to be part of the canon of scripture, although he did translate it, along with other non-canonical material. The fact is that the canon of the Catholic Bible was under discussion right up to the Protestant Reformation at which point it was decided to settle the matter once and for all. Even so, the DC remained under discussion within Protestantism and is still highly regarded by many Protestant denominations.

If I were to try to do that, I might hog the thread. I just wondered why you think it is essential that the NT quote the Septuagint, which contains the Deuterocanoncial books. And I provided examples of entire canonical books in your own version of the OT which are nowhere mentioned in the NT, and asked why they are considered canonical to you. If you want to answer, fine, that would show some honesty on your part. If not, that's fine, too.

As I have stated several times previously, it is Catholic posters such as BarryatLake and Orthodox posters such as Sculley who think it is essential that the NT quote the DC and who actually believe that to be the case. You may wish to question them as to why they are so committed. While you are at it, you might want to question the compilers of these lists which seem to be seriously flawed.

I am running this thread merely to examine and discuss one such list and to verify or disallow the veracity of these various claims.

 

[barryatlake]

bb, you really confuse me, what is your problem ? In an earlier post I agreed with you that 'yes",St. Jerome did not consider that the DC was a part of the Canon of Scripture, as did other early Christians. There were numerous other Church Fathers who quoted the deuterocanonical books as Scripture (see The Old Testament Canon ), while some did not.

St.Jerome appears to have rejected most of the deuterocanonical parts of Scripture. But he did accept portions and included all seven books in his Latin translation of Scripture, known as the Vulgate. Ultimately, he recognized that the Church alone had the authority to determine the canon.

Since there was disagreement between some Church Fathers, it became obvious that no individual could provide an infallible list of inspired books. The bottom line: "We have no other assurance that the books of Moses, the four Gospels, and the other books are the true word of God," wrote Augustine, "but by the canon of the Catholic Church."

Since it is unreasonable to expect every person to read all of the books of antiquity and judge for himself if they are inspired, the question boils down to whose authority is to be trusted in this matter. One must either trust a rabbinical school that rejected the New Testament 60 years after Christ established a Church, or one must trust the Church he established.

Which deserves our trust? Martin Luther makes a pertinent observation in the sixteenth chapter of his Commentary on St. John "We are obliged to yield many things to the papists [Catholics]—that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."

 

[Root of Jesse]

Apparently St. Jerome was ignorant that his church set its canon to include the DC. He did not consider the DC to be part of the canon of scripture, although he did translate it, along with other non-canonical material. The fact is that the canon of the Catholic Bible was under discussion right up to the Protestant Reformation at which point it was decided to settle the matter once and for all. Even so, the DC remained under discussion within Protestantism and is still highly regarded by many Protestant denominations.

St. Jerome is not authoritative, and is entitled to his opinion. The reason it was settled at Trent was because the Reform folks questioned it, which is how the Church usually defines its doctrines-when people have questions about it. This means there was no real objection to what the Councils of Rome and Carthage promulgated.

As I have stated several times previously, it is Catholic posters such as BarryatLake and Orthodox posters such as Sculley who think it is essential that the NT quote the DC and who actually believe that to be the case. You may wish to question them as to why they are so committed. While you are at it, you might want to question the compilers of these lists which seem to be seriously flawed.

For them it may be essential, but it is not considered so by the Church. As I stated, I believe, as they do, that the NT references the Deuterocanonical books, but I don't think it's essential. Why? Because there are several books in the rest of the Canon that the NT ignores. Therefore, it matters not that the NT quotes the DC.

I am running this thread merely to examine and discuss one such list and to verify or disallow the veracity of these various claims.

Go ahead with your exercise. I just wondered why YOU think it must be so. And you haven't given an answer, so I'll assume there's no good reason, other than that your sect thinks they shouldn't be there...