• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Determining Reality

s123mith

Newbie
May 29, 2012
2
0
✟22,612.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hello,
"for the question - How do you know truth from opinion or belief? Is the bible your main source for this kind of determination? Something else?"
answer is all about spirituality. when a person thinks so much for his tradition then of course about this question he will definitely go for HOLY books but in case of just increasing the knowledge not about the spirituality its depend on that person for the source.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think we've unintentionally made a great point regarding the OP raze. Here we have a perfect example of someone who disregarded logic and reason in their determination of reality.

We have no such thing. The best medical science available, gives you test results they can't explain, and label a miracle.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"I" redefine it? LOL as usual, I'm comfortable with the standard dictionary definition.

Which completely removed the meaning of the word as used, LONG before their dictionary was published. So yes, you re-defined it.

" That you have no evidence for this,"
That I have no evidence of what???

And here is the second instance, in as many posts, of you providing evidence you can't follow simple conversation. (Selective hearing?)
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
We have no such thing. The best medical science available, gives you test results they can't explain, and label a miracle.

Now its the dr claiming its a "miracle"? Sorry, but I doubt that happened, especially since there is nothing "special" or "unusual" about your dad's case. It is true that some people label normal everyday events as "miracles" like the birth of a child or graduating college, but like your dad's case of MS there is no evidence of anything supernatural happening. Sorry.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married

LOL then why not quote a passage that proves me wrong? We both know why, because its true. I can't post everything Luke ever "recorded" or "said" here, but anyone with a bible can look this one up for themselves. Luke never explains his methods or process, something that reliable ancient historians do. The best ancient historians were very aware that certain stories took on fantastic and mythical aspects over time, so they wanted future generations to know how they gathered their information in a reliable way. Luke, on the other hand, wanted no such thing.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Which completely removed the meaning of the word as used, LONG before their dictionary was published. So yes, you re-defined it.



And here is the second instance, in as many posts, of you providing evidence you can't follow simple conversation. (Selective hearing?)

It was food4thought who used the term first, so for all you know my definition matches his just fine. This is why you should let others defend their own statements, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe you have selective reading. As I already pointed out, food4thought made no mention of evidence, so when I say "there is no evidence" I'm completely justified. Again, you should let food4thought make his own case and stay out of conversations where you don't understand what's being said.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
How about people who have been healed of cancer. Care for any more names and numbers to call?

Again, your talking about diseases that go into complete remission all by themselves quite often. Even if medical science doesn't know why certain diseases or conditions go into remission or go away completely doesn't mean medical science will never know. Medical science as we know it is less than 100 years old and yet it seems as if you expect them to know everything about everything or its an act of god.

If you could show me something completely unprecedented that defied any possible explanation or logic...you might have something. For example someone loses an arm in a machine accident, and it grows back. Or perhaps someone whose face gets burned off, then heals back to its original form. SUrely these things are well within the power of god, but they never happen...why is that?

Or how about someone who became a vegetable because of severe brain damage being restored to their original intelligence? How about someone who lost a liver or their kidneys and had those organs miraculously grow back?
What about the opposite cases where parents relied on faith healing to save their children, and their children died?
The only answer that makes sense for all these cases is that god doesn't heal, and medical science doesn't currently have every answer.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

golgotha61

World Christian in Progress
Site Supporter
Jul 19, 2011
752
48
Ohio
✟104,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think you misunderstood what I was saying about Tacitus, I believe he was historically reliable. My point was that even though he is historically reliable, he made mistakes, so you can't simply accept everything he wrote as fact merely because he wrote it.

Nor should we necessarily deem what he has recorded that does not agree with our own bias as unreliable. Since we are considering corroboration as helping in the determination of truth in historicity, his references fit the bill. Again, his wittings are not inspired by God so they are not canonical, but they do corroborate at least to the point of determining that Christ historically existed.


It's funny you should mention that the "Gospel writers" were Jesus's historians. Did you happen to check out any of the links that I've posted earlier in this thread? THere was an attempt recently by many well known and respected biblical scholars to determine which sayings in the bible could actually be attributed to Jesus. The result was that they decided the overwhelming majority of quotes attributed to Jesus are incorrect, and in all likelihood he never said them.
Jesus Seminar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[FONT=&quot]I am well acquainted with these critical works and the characterization of “well known and respected biblical scholars” is an exaggeration. The Jesus Seminar folks, who pride themselves on their scholarship, are misguided. They fail to grasp that we only know what Jesus said and did through the Spirit-inspired witness of Christ’s apostles. It is with error and futile to seek Jesus in a different way than what God has seen fit to give us.[/FONT]


" The Ancient Near East did not record events as reporters and modern historians do today."
THis much is true. THere were no concerned scholars searching for facts, checking sources, or establishing any sort of attempt to critically examine evidence or witnesses.

The biblical accounts and narratives were given to the various authors who were superimposed by the Holy Spirit. The copying of the scriptures was done by “scribes” who used the scriptures at their disposal.



It was a time of cults and magic and superstition. People believed stories based on the fervor of the story-tellers. There are plenty of gods raised from the dead, talking dogs, magicians, demons, and all sorts of nonsense we don't believe in today.

True to a point. There was superstition and gods who behaved badly in the ancient Near Eastern pagan recordings, to say the least. The people were trying to control their environment and so the religions of the ancient Near East developed according to the cognitive environment. There were views and beliefs we do not accept today, however, it is wrong headed to force today’s cognition on the Ancient Nears East’s cognitive environment. Since we are after the meaning of the narratives and their text, we must try to understand the author’s cognition and context.


THat is why it is crucial to examine any writings from the period through external sources, otherwise its impossible to know the truth.

I agree. We must study the history of the Near East to recover the knowledge of events that shaped the lives of the people of the ancient Near East. We must study archeology to recover the lifestyle reflected in the material culture of the ancient world. We must study the literature of the Near East to see inside the heart and soul of the people of the Near East including the Hebrews. We must study the language of the ancient Near East to gain insight into the semantics, lexicography, idioms, and metaphors used in Hebrew.
 
Upvote 0

guitarmonster

Newbie
Jan 5, 2012
268
9
✟22,958.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
I have never said I could prove anything, I can't. No matter what evidence I put forward, there will be another reason why it may not be God's work. God is eternal, he has no beginning or no end. We live in a world with limits and restrictions, with laws and measurements. God can't be measured by anything on this Earth. The proof of God is written on our hearts, there is a little something there that wants God. When this place is filled with Christ, that person is at true peace. When it is not, usually a person will desperately try to fill it with something else.

My former roommate used to be a Christian a long time ago. He experienced a great deal of judgement from church members because he was what they considered to be different. After a while he got tired of hit and gave up his faith and became an atheist. For a while he seemed really happy, he used to tell me how free he felt now that he realized the truth that Jesus was not real. As time went by he got bad into drinking, and basically let himself go. He would always make a point to come out to the livingroom and have discussions with me on different reasons why he felt God was not real. It was almost like he was on a mission to get me to stop believing. Now I believe that he has been running from God who is probably tugging at his heart. Because if there really wasn't a God, then what is driving you to convince others that he doesn't exist? Isn't the point of Atheism that you can go on your merry way without having to deal with things like this? Honestly if I were to for some reason drop my faith, I would not take any time on these forums at all because I would not have any interest in it. Of course that would never happen.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Nor should we necessarily deem what he has recorded that does not agree with our own bias as unreliable. Since we are considering corroboration as helping in the determination of truth in historicity, his references fit the bill. Again, his wittings are not inspired by God so they are not canonical, but they do corroborate at least to the point of determining that Christ historically existed.




[FONT=&quot]I am well acquainted with these critical works and the characterization of “well known and respected biblical scholars” is an exaggeration. The Jesus Seminar folks, who pride themselves on their scholarship, are misguided. They fail to grasp that we only know what Jesus said and did through the Spirit-inspired witness of Christ’s apostles. It is with error and futile to seek Jesus in a different way than what God has seen fit to give us.[/FONT]




The biblical accounts and narratives were given to the various authors who were superimposed by the Holy Spirit. The copying of the scriptures was done by “scribes” who used the scriptures at their disposal.





True to a point. There was superstition and gods who behaved badly in the ancient Near Eastern pagan recordings, to say the least. The people were trying to control their environment and so the religions of the ancient Near East developed according to the cognitive environment. There were views and beliefs we do not accept today, however, it is wrong headed to force today’s cognition on the Ancient Nears East’s cognitive environment. Since we are after the meaning of the narratives and their text, we must try to understand the author’s cognition and context.




I agree. We must study the history of the Near East to recover the knowledge of events that shaped the lives of the people of the ancient Near East. We must study archeology to recover the lifestyle reflected in the material culture of the ancient world. We must study the literature of the Near East to see inside the heart and soul of the people of the Near East including the Hebrews. We must study the language of the ancient Near East to gain insight into the semantics, lexicography, idioms, and metaphors used in Hebrew.

I'm guessing you haven't read all the pages prior to these last few. If you had you might have noticed a link which explains that on the very next page after Tacitus mentions Christ, he calls these beliefs the "superstitions" of the Christians. From this we can be reasonably certain that he was simply relating what the Christians themselves believed, not something that was regarded as historical fact.

Your assertion that the authors of the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit is unfounded and merely your opinion, not fact. Furthermore, I'm not aware of any part of the gospels that claims to be inspired by the Holy spurt and if you have a passage that says as much, I'd love to see it.

You are correct in saying that the scholars at the Jesus seminar didn't consider any supposed spiritual aspects of the writing of the bible. Instead, they took a purely academic and factual approach. However, this isn't a bad thing when trying to ascertain the truth.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I have never said I could prove anything, I can't. No matter what evidence I put forward, there will be another reason why it may not be God's work. God is eternal, he has no beginning or no end. We live in a world with limits and restrictions, with laws and measurements. God can't be measured by anything on this Earth. The proof of God is written on our hearts, there is a little something there that wants God. When this place is filled with Christ, that person is at true peace. When it is not, usually a person will desperately try to fill it with something else.

My former roommate used to be a Christian a long time ago. He experienced a great deal of judgement from church members because he was what they considered to be different. After a while he got tired of hit and gave up his faith and became an atheist. For a while he seemed really happy, he used to tell me how free he felt now that he realized the truth that Jesus was not real. As time went by he got bad into drinking, and basically let himself go. He would always make a point to come out to the livingroom and have discussions with me on different reasons why he felt God was not real. It was almost like he was on a mission to get me to stop believing. Now I believe that he has been running from God who is probably tugging at his heart. Because if there really wasn't a God, then what is driving you to convince others that he doesn't exist? Isn't the point of Atheism that you can go on your merry way without having to deal with things like this? Honestly if I were to for some reason drop my faith, I would not take any time on these forums at all because I would not have any interest in it. Of course that would never happen.

It's a topic that interests me and I like the discussion. I'm not trying to convince anyone that god doesn't exist. Is that so hard to believe? If you're so sure of what you believe why are you so scared of an atheist speaking up and saying what they believe?
 
Upvote 0

guitarmonster

Newbie
Jan 5, 2012
268
9
✟22,958.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
Or how about someone who became a vegetable because of severe brain damage being restored to their original intelligence? How about someone who lost a liver or their kidneys and had those organs miraculously grow back?
What about the opposite cases where parents relied on faith healing to save their children, and their children died?
The only answer that makes sense for all these cases is that god doesn't heal, and medical science doesn't currently have every answer.


Because our definition of healing is different from God's definition. He heals us by taking us sinners who live in a corruptable body and cleansing us with his blood, hence allowing us to enter the kingdom of Heaven. There are times when he chooses to heal the sick, or when he chooses spiritual healing. A good example is in the book of Luke where they placed a paralyzed man before Jesus, and he forgave his sins:


Luke 5:17-26


17 One day Jesus was teaching, and Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there. They had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was with Jesus to heal the sick.18 Some men came carrying a paralyzed man on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus.19 When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.
20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
21 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
22 Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?23 Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?24 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."25 Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God.26 Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, "We have seen remarkable things today."


It is better for any of us to have our sins forgiven then to receive physical healing. Even someone who is a vegetable, is a lifetime in this life being a vegetable so bad if the end result is eternity in Heaven, where you will be given a new body, a perfect body? Sometimes we don't see the big picture like God does. He knows all, even knows what is going to happen in the future. What if the reason a person was a vegetable was because God knew that person was going to follow the wrong path if he did not intervene? Maybe my cousin who was taken at an early age was on his way to destruction, and God had to swipe him up before it was too late?
 
Upvote 0

guitarmonster

Newbie
Jan 5, 2012
268
9
✟22,958.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
I believe in the Word of God, and I believe that you will find the truth because you are seeking it:

Luke 11:9-10
9 "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

You are seeking and you will find, when you are ready to knock the door will be opened to you. When that door is opened, when you accept Jesus into your heart, you will have the gift of The Holy Spirit. The amazing thing is that when you have the Holy Spirit, you then have interpretation of God's word in your heart. With this interpretation, you can achieve a deeper understanding of the realm of God. Your mind can never be convinced of his presence, there is no way anyone can convince you through logic or knowledge. It's a touch from the Holy Spirit, who instead of changing your mind speaks to your heart. The only way you will ever know is to take a leap of faith. I will pray that the Holy Spirit will speak to your heart and that you will give Jesus a chance.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I believe in the Word of God, and I believe that you will find the truth because you are seeking it:

Luke 11:9-10
9 "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

You are seeking and you will find, when you are ready to knock the door will be opened to you. When that door is opened, when you accept Jesus into your heart, you will have the gift of The Holy Spirit. The amazing thing is that when you have the Holy Spirit, you then have interpretation of God's word in your heart. With this interpretation, you can achieve a deeper understanding of the realm of God. Your mind can never be convinced of his presence, there is no way anyone can convince you through logic or knowledge. It's a touch from the Holy Spirit, who instead of changing your mind speaks to your heart. The only way you will ever know is to take a leap of faith. I will pray that the Holy Spirit will speak to your heart and that you will give Jesus a chance.

I believe I know the truth.
 
Upvote 0

guitarmonster

Newbie
Jan 5, 2012
268
9
✟22,958.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
When I asked if you believed in God, I don't mean did you ever have a belief that he existed. I meant have you ever believed in him and accepted Christ into your life at any point?

I believe I know the truth.
But you are still here. There is something that is not letting you away form this forum. Whether you want to admit it or not, the Holy Spirit is working right here, right now.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
When I asked if you believed in God, I don't mean did you ever have a belief that he existed. I meant have you ever believed in him and accepted Christ into your life at any point?


But you are still here. There is something that is not letting you away form this forum. Whether you want to admit it or not, the Holy Spirit is working right here, right now.

Maybe you didn't see it before, but I enjoy discussion on many religious topics. Not just Christian ones either. I have profiles on a Hindu forum, Buddhism forum, Islam forum, and I've been looking for a good taoist forum. I'm actually kind of sad for you guitar. You don't seem capable of accepting the idea that there are people who don't believe as you do, and yet they live content, happy, fulfilling lives without Christ or the Holy spirit or any of that. Why do you think that it bothers you so? Is it because deep down you really doubt what is true and you're afraid what you might learn if you tried to understand what others believe?
 
Upvote 0