Describe the Trinity as best you can

[humblemuslim]

I don't know if you've heard of this illustration.

Think of water, ice and steam - they all appear slightly different, yet they are all H20,,,they are the same essence and substance.

Thus, God is one, yet three.

I'm sure this is not a perfect illustration...but it is hard to grasp God intellectually in many ways.

Yes I have seen this illustration before. Thanks for sharing anyways

 

[humblemuslim]

"The Word is begotten of the Mind,
The Breath proceeds from the Mind,
Yet there was never a time when the Mind existed without the Word and Breath.
They dwelt in the Darkness that was before darkness, outside time,
Yet They made all things within time,
For time and darkness came into being only when movement and light were made.

"By Thinking which is beyond thought, the Primal Essence creates.
The Word brings forth and fulfills the command of the Mind,
The Action-Breath accomplishes and perfects,
And with these two hands of the Mind,
Thought becomes deed—

Thanks for sharing this.

The part I highlighted makes it sound like people who believe in the Trinity are personifying an abstract concept. For example, if a human speaks or writes down their word we would not consider this action to be a separate person or nature of that human.

I mean Jesus, the Word of God, was clearly a person in terms of his humanity (Body). But I am assuming Christians are not focusing on the physical being of Jesus. Which brings me to yet another question: Was Jesus' "Soul" the "Father"? Jesus says that the Father was in Him in the Gospels. Or was it the "Holy Spirit"? Or something completely separate?

 

[humblemuslim]

I don't think an abstracted doctine is a good approach to Trinity. If that's what you want, then I don't think you can do better than the Athanasian Creed, but that's not how the bible approaches the issue.

Rather, it approaches the issue through stories (explicit and implicit) that gradually show the nature of God as a single God but three persons in unique relationship.

Which stories? When you say gradually do you mean from the OT to the NT or do you mean even within the NT?

 

[humblemuslim]

The Holy Trinity - Incomprehensible mystery.

One God, in Three Persons. Understand how, no.

For the two of you: If this concept is beyond our understanding, why do you believe God would reveal it? What purpose does it serve? If anything it might drive people away from God due to confusion, misunderstandings, or just plain rejection of such a concept given the way we as humans think.

Is there some benefit to worshiping an identity of God that distinguishes "Persons" or "Parts" or however you want to think of it? As opposed to worshiping an abstract concept of God?

As an example, lets say I meet a new friend named Joseph. Whenever I refer to Joseph, I refer to him as a single person. I think of him as a single person. But in reality he is composed of numerous organs and body parts. And even those organs and body parts are composed of God knows how many cells. And those cells are God knows how many atoms. And the atoms are God knows how many sub-atomic particles. There would be absolutely no value, in my mind, to address Joseph to this level of detail, though it be true. It would only confuse people, if not myself included, by addressing Joseph in so many pieces. When all along I can just address Joseph at a "High Level Approach" through abstracting the concept of Joseph as a single indivisible person.

 

[humblemuslim]

It is like a point in 3d space. You can move in three different perpendicular lines vertical left right forward backward or you can move along all three lines at the same time if you think like cartesian coordinates. If you project from a position in space not on an axis you always get a point on each line (3 points) but one point in space if you are along a line you get one point on the line and a projection on the origin. The point is if you focus on one aspect of the trinity the other two appear as one and it appears as one. Think of a corner in a room bordering on the floor. Imagine it duplicated 8 times around the cusp of the corner. Then you have 3d space and that is what I'm describing. The trinity is always a projection of 3 points from one in open space off of an axis.
You could think of the x axis as son, y axis holy spirit and z axis as father. Then you have a situation in which if you focus on the father as the essence of the Godhead you get son and holy spirit projected on the origin. Etc. When christ came to the earth the theophany of his baptism was equal parts of each so it would be along a line 45 degrees to each axis. This is hardly a good explanation, just a concept to hang the trinity on so you don't have to cry about it.

Interesting fresh explanation. Thanks for sharing.

 

[humblemuslim]

God, the Trinity of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, One in essence and undivided, coexistent and coeternal. As the God of eternity proceeded to create..."And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26, King James Vesion, KJV). The Trinity as spoken by the prophet Isaiah, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was , there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit hath sent me." (Isaiah 48:16, KJV) a prophecy of the sending of the Son who became Jesus Christ our Saviour. The Son is also called the Word, 'In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1,KJV). The incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14,KJV). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." (John 15:26,KJV). The Trinity in the salvation of our souls, "For through him (Jesus Christ) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." (Ephesians 2:18,KJV). God bless.

Questions: Is Jesus also the Image of God? Being fully human? What would the fully God nature mean regarding this?

Why is Jesus begotten? What does this mean?

 

[Secundulus]

Questions: Is Jesus also the Image of God? Being fully human? What would the fully God nature mean regarding this?

Jesus is the Creator so it would be wrong to say that he is in the image of God like man is in the image of God. It would be more accurate to say that man is in the image of Christ.

Why is Jesus begotten? What does this mean?

It means he is not created. He existed from eternity with the Father and the Holy Spirit as God.

 

[Jpark]

The Spirit of God is the Author of wisdom. (Job 32:8)

The Spirit of God is the Source of life. (Job 33:4)

If God should turn His attention elsewhere, if He should withdraw His life-giving Spirit from this world, then human history would come to an end. (Job 34:14-15)

Thus, the Holy Spirit is the Creator and Sustainer of life.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

God in essence is Spirit.

 

[humblemuslim]

Jesus is the Creator so it would be wrong to say that he is in the image of God like man is in the image of God. It would be more accurate to say that man is in the image of Christ.

It means he is not created. He existed from eternity with the Father and the Holy Spirit as God.

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Both verses address Jesus the Christ as being the image of God. Is this referring to his humanity only?

The second verse goes a step further saying Jesus is the "firstborn over all creation". Why are the authors of the NT using words that suggest Jesus is non-eternal? Words like Begotten/firstborn.

Begotten (Past Participle of Beget) - Meaning to be the cause of something or to father a child (Archaic usage)

Firstborn - The first offspring to be born to a set of parents.

I would not suggest Jesus is physically God's son in the same sense a humans father children. But the language used suggests Jesus to be non-eternal. Why do this? As if the concept of the Trinity is not confusing enough already...:o

Also, I know some Christians place more emphasizes on Mary, the mother of Christ, than others do. Was Mary just a regular human woman? Nothing special about her? Maybe she was more righteous than others?

 

[humblemuslim]

The Spirit of God is the Author of wisdom. (Job 32:8)

The Spirit of God is the Source of life. (Job 33:4)

If God should turn His attention elsewhere, if He should withdraw His life-giving Spirit from this world, then human history would come to an end. (Job 34:14-15)

Thus, the Holy Spirit is the Creator and Sustainer of life.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

God in essence is Spirit.

Thanks for sharing. I especially like the highlighted verse.

 

[Jpark]

Thanks for sharing. I especially like the highlighted verse.

True worship is spiritual reality in harmony with the will of God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

For the two of you: If this concept is beyond our understanding, why do you believe God would reveal it? What purpose does it serve? If anything it might drive people away from God due to confusion, misunderstandings, or just plain rejection of such a concept given the way we as humans think.

Is there some benefit to worshiping an identity of God that distinguishes "Persons" or "Parts" or however you want to think of it? As opposed to worshiping an abstract concept of God?

As an example, lets say I meet a new friend named Joseph. Whenever I refer to Joseph, I refer to him as a single person. I think of him as a single person. But in reality he is composed of numerous organs and body parts. And even those organs and body parts are composed of God knows how many cells. And those cells are God knows how many atoms. And the atoms are God knows how many sub-atomic particles. There would be absolutely no value, in my mind, to address Joseph to this level of detail, though it be true. It would only confuse people, if not myself included, by addressing Joseph in so many pieces. When all along I can just address Joseph at a "High Level Approach" through abstracting the concept of Joseph as a single indivisible person.

Excellant questions!

The question of "parts" cannot apply to God. How could something that we say to be infinite, even an infinite existence also have parts? Which "part" would be greater if all are infinite? How is there "room" for three infinite parts? One "part" would have to end where the next begins, which implies limits to something we say has no limits.

While One God and Three Persons, it is not the same as saying God has three parts (or three roles or three modes). By definition God exists, He does consist - does not have parts as we do.

Again I maintain that a god we could fully comprehend would not be much of a god. In fact if we could fully comprehend a "god", the next logical thought should be this is no god at all. A God that has revealed something of Himself to us yet is still not fully comprehensible is made no less God by our lack of understanding.

As to why reveal this particular thing, the Trinity? It has helped people understand how God releates to us. His Spirit comforts, His Son gives Himself in order to make it possible for all of us to be restored in our relationship to the Father. Also limits out tendency to try to humanize Him. Prevents of us from being polytheist while explaining/retaining a fuller explanation of His relations toward us (Creator - Father, Redeemer - Son, Comfort - Spirit) and so on.

 

[humblemuslim]

Excellant questions!

The question of "parts" cannot apply to God. How could something that we say to be infinite, even an infinite existence also have parts? Which "part" would be greater if all are infinite? How is there "room" for three infinite parts? One "part" would have to end where the next begins, which implies limits to something we say has no limits.

While One God and Three Persons, it is not the same as saying God has three parts (or three roles or three modes). By definition God exists, He does consist - does not have parts as we do.

Again I maintain that a god we could fully comprehend would not be much of a god. In fact if we could fully comprehend a "god", the next logical thought should be this is no god at all. A God that has revealed something of Himself to us yet is still not fully comprehensible is made no less God by our lack of understanding.

As to why reveal this particular thing, the Trinity? It has helped people understand how God releates to us. His Spirit comforts, His Son gives Himself in order to make it possible for all of us to be restored in our relationship to the Father. Also limits out tendency to try to humanize Him.Prevents of us from being polytheist while explaining/retaining a fuller explanation of His relations toward us (Creator - Father, Redeemer - Son, Comfort - Spirit) and so on.

Thanks for your answers. I have yet another question related to the highlighted portion of your answers.

How does including a Fully Human/Fully God person into the Godhead mitigate this tendency? I have seen some Christian responses that, in my opinion, push the envelope of this topic a little too far, effectively humanizing God. Although maybe they are confused or maybe I misunderstood them. Jesus was a historical person. Would I be correct in saying Christians worship Jesus in Spirit? Not Jesus in person (Body)?

 

[Jpark]

Thanks for your answers. I have yet another question related to the highlighted portion of your answers.

How does including a Fully Human/Fully God person into the Godhead mitigate this tendency? I have seen some Christian responses that, in my opinion, push the envelope of this topic a little too far, effectively humanizing God. Although maybe they are confused or maybe I misunderstood them. Jesus was a historical person. Would I be correct in saying Christians worship Jesus in Spirit? Not Jesus in person (Body)?

Well, I think I have the answer. I made this answer a while ago on Yahoo! Answers. I just made some changes to it right now.

Although the dwelling place of God is located in the heavens (2 Chronicles 6:30), even such an expanse does not hold God in. Solomon declares that God cannot be contained by the earth and heaven and the heavens of heavens. (2 Chronicles 6:18) God possesses the ability to transcend physical confinements of our material world; God is Omnipresent. He exists in all dimensions and planes of existence, even in the chaos plane which is perceived as a hell. (Exodus 24:10; Ezekiel 1:26-28) His emergence into our world would abruptly collapse our existance. (Micah 1:3-4) So for God to emerge into our plane of existance, He would have to change Himself so drastically that he would no longer actually be God. But how could He achieve such a design? Well, for God so loved the world (John 3:16), He willingly became a human being on our behalf, relinquishing His glory (Matthew 17:2), though retaining His deity. He veiled the manifestations of deity and assumed real humanity. He dwelt with His people. (2 Chronicles 6:18; John 1:14)

Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the LORD is coming out of His place; He will come down And tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains will melt under Him, And the valleys will split Like wax before the fire, Like waters poured down a steep place.

2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God indeed dwell with men on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!"

Exodus 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.

Ezekiel 1:26-28 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.

 

[Lukaris]

Questions: Is Jesus also the Image of God? Being fully human? What would the fully God nature mean regarding this? Jesus Christ is the image of God (Jesus answering the apostle Philip,"...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.."John 14:9, KJV) and preached by St. Paul, "Who (Jesus Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature.' (Colossians 1:15,KJV). The Son of God (who also is God) is eternal and "by him were all things created" (Colossians 1:16, KJV). The Son as the Word became flesh incarnate (John 1:14) so Jesus Christ was both God and man fully divine and human (but without sin). The Holy Trinity effected His incarnation which is evident when the angel Gabriel tells the ever virgin St. Mary,"...The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall oveshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called Son of God."(Luke 1:35, KJV). The Holy Spirit proceeded from the Highest (the Father) to give immaculate conception of the Son of God in the womb of the virgin Mary and note how each person of the Trinity (one God) is revealed here

Why is Jesus begotten? What does this mean?

It is an amplfied meaning of from (applied to power & procreation in actual or descriptive sense). To describe the difference between the 3 Divine Persons of the Holy Trinity a catechism of the Orthodox Church states, "God the Father is neither begotten nor proceeds from any other Person; God the Son is from all eternity begotten of the Father; God the Holy Spirit from all eternity proceeds from the Father." (Syrian Antiochian Orthodox catechism, c. 1949). I was only addressing your individual post if others have answreed already then that is good & not trying to be redundant. Thankyou and God bless. (please note that my answer to your 1st question became wrapped with it as part of the quote, sorry).

 

[humblemuslim]

Well, for God so loved the world (John 3:16), He willingly became a human being on our behalf, relinquishing His glory (Matthew 17:2), though retaining His deity. He veiled the manifestations of deity and assumed real humanity. He dwelt with His people. (2 Chronicles 6:18; John 1:14)

Thanks for your post. This part specifically is the kind of statements that seem to be humanizing God, quite directly. So I do not see how one of DrBubbaLove's justifications of revealing this concept is being fulfilled.

As to why reveal this particular thing, the Trinity? It has helped people understand how God releates to us. His Spirit comforts, His Son gives Himself in order to make it possible for all of us to be restored in our relationship to the Father. Also limits out tendency to try to humanize Him. Prevents of us from being polytheist while explaining/retaining a fuller explanation of His relations toward us (Creator - Father, Redeemer - Son, Comfort - Spirit) and so on.

Either I am misunderstanding what you are telling me (Either one of you, or maybe both) or I am understanding you correctly and one among the two of you either disagrees or is confused about the doctrine. I can't say either way, since I am here to learn straight from the horse's mouth as the saying goes. Let me ask a question among the two of you:

jpark43: Do you agree with DrBubbaLove's reason for the revealing of the Trinity, or do you have another explanation maybe?

DrBubbaLove: The statement "He willingly became a human being on our behalf" appears to be a humanization of God, directly. Agreed? Disagreed? So do you still believe this concept mitigates this tendency?

 

[humblemuslim]

It is an amplfied meaning of from (applied to power & procreation in actual or descriptive sense). To describe the difference between the 3 Divine Persons of the Holy Trinity a catechism of the Orthodox Church states, "God the Father is neither begotten nor proceeds from any other Person; God the Son is from all eternity begotten of the Father; God the Holy Spirit from all eternity proceeds from the Father." (Syrian Antiochian Orthodox catechism, c. 1949). I was only addressing your individual post if others have answreed already then that is good & not trying to be redundant. Thankyou and God bless. (please note that my answer to your 1st question became wrapped with it as part of the quote, sorry).

Thanks for your response

I have some more questions if you do not mind:

1. Does Jesus ever mention his relationship to the Holy Spirit? He obviously addresses a relationship with the Father.

"God the Father is neither begotten nor proceeds from any other Person; God the Son is from all eternity begotten of the Father; God the Holy Spirit from all eternity proceeds from the Father." (Syrian Antiochian Orthodox catechism, c. 1949).

2. When it says "all eternity", does this mean infinite existence (No being and no end) or does this mean since the beginning of time?

3. Finally, the language "begotten" and "proceeds" is highly confounding to me. Proceeds does not suggest a beginning, begotten does. Just fundamentally from the meaning of the word. Although proceeds causes new problems when I think about it, because God is supposed to be everywhere. So how can God proceed from God if God is everywhere. This question might very well be unaddressable due to the lack of understanding humanity can have about God. But I admittedly can not reconcile this information.

 

[Secundulus]

Both verses address Jesus the Christ as being the image of God. Is this referring to his humanity only?

Jesus says that to know him is to know God.

"Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" (John 14:8-9, NASB95)

The second verse goes a step further saying Jesus is the "firstborn over all creation". Why are the authors of the NT using words that suggest Jesus is non-eternal? Words like Begotten/firstborn.

You have to look at the context. When Paul says fistborn here he is talking about firstborn in the resurrection. Jesus was the first to be resurrected.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything." (Colossians 1:15-18, NASB95)

Begotten (Past Participle of Beget) - Meaning to be the cause of something or to father a child (Archaic usage)

Begotten means he is not created but rather comes forth from God. Look at what Paul says even when using the word begotten.

"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:16-17, NASB95)

I would not suggest Jesus is physically God's son in the same sense a humans father children. But the language used suggests Jesus to be non-eternal. Why do this? As if the concept of the Trinity is not confusing enough already...

I think the language states clearly that he is the creator.

Also, I know some Christians place more emphasizes on Mary, the mother of Christ, than others do. Was Mary just a regular human woman? Nothing special about her? Maybe she was more righteous than others?

Mary was chosen by God to bear the Son and is honored above all other women in accordance with the scriptures. Some Christians like to ignore this and to denigrate her. You will have to ask them why?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Thanks for your answers. I have yet another question related to the highlighted portion of your answers.

How does including a Fully Human/Fully God person into the Godhead mitigate this tendency? I have seen some Christian responses that, in my opinion, push the envelope of this topic a little too far, effectively humanizing God.

And thank you for being so polite and respectful. More excellant questions!

Maybe my poor phrasing. Jesus is indeed both fully Man and fully God. He is no less Divine, yet still also a Man. He is both.

I meant humanizing God refering to our tendency to attribute to the Divine actions, characteristics or emotions ..etc that should only be applied to humans. Saying God became Human (Jesus is a human) is different from saying He behaves as a human (God acts like a human). If we speak of the Man, Jesus (and not His Divinity) then we could expect a human would behave as a human. He cried, he suffered, he felt pain. However those are things we cannot say belong to the Divine. I do not see our belief that God became Man as "humanzing" God. Jesus did not give up His Divinity in becoming a Man. And in some way we do not understand, He is also a Man.

As to how having a Trinity helps mitigates our tendency to humanize other beings (by the way, a natural tendency - it is how we try to make sense of the actions of other beings - including other animals) I meant the idea of a Trinity highlights the vast difference between God and us.

We do not consist of Three in One and cannot fully fathom how it is even possible - IOW it is inhuman to be Three in One - a realization which I thought should make it harder to atribute human traits to such a Being.

Although maybe they are confused or maybe I misunderstood them. Jesus was a historical person. Would I be correct in saying Christians worship Jesus in Spirit? Not Jesus in person (Body)?

Maybe some are confused. Jesus has had a body since birth and still does today. So the Jesus we worship is still both God and Man, He has a Body. And for some of us, that Body is very real and very much present with us in and as part of our Worship.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

DrBubbaLove: The statement "He willingly became a human being on our behalf" appears to be a humanization of God, directly. Agreed? Disagreed? So do you still believe this concept mitigates this tendency?

No for the reason just given.

To put another way, humanizing is saying or writing that God behaves as a human would.
I think you would be correct about our belief in His becoming Man; that it would indeed be COMPLETE humanization of God, but only if we DID NOT also believe He at the same time is fully God. Jesus being both God and Man cannot be described as complete humanization. (We are not gods).