Describe Messianism.

[ShirChadash]

SC - Messianic Judaism has been used for many, many years in this context - it is certainly not a new name. By the same token you may well claim it has been borrowed, in its root form, directly from Judaism. Now, that may well be true but there is no copyright on the name. I think, in all honesty, that for someone to think that a Messianic Jew is a part of 'normal' Judiasm, as such, in this day and age is pushing the imagination a little far.

The same arguments were put forward in relation to Reform Judaism, as I recall, that they should not use that title because, in the eyes of many orthodox Jews, they simply were not 'real' Jews any longer in the normal, accepted use of the word. Therefore they should not use the word Jew or its derivatives in their title. They won the day, ultimately, though there was not (and is not, still) universal acceptance by other Jews.

As said above, it will be necessary to find a new name at some point that takes in those who might call themselves Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles, but I think the movement itself must be free to choose the name it wishes to use; it will not be an overnight process but a more long term gradual realisation that the existing title does not fit any longer. The new title will need to incorporate something that joins both the Jewish and 'Christian' aspects of the movement - your suggested name does not really do that. Therein lies a part of the problem - but is not just about Jews!

none of that addresses the issue of why anyone would object to the use of the word messiahist as compared to messianic, or of the term messiahism versus messianism (as you used in your title -- others would use the word messianicism).

I realize you have a particular issue you are concerned with, and you are posting out of that view -- that of finding a term that is inclusive of everyone within the messiahist movement itself. That is not at all relevant to my concern nor interest, much less my place to even discuss.

My concern is rather opposite -- I, on the other hand, am concerned with the appropriating messiahism has done, of the term messianic, as an exclusive term which by nature necessarily at best overlooks, and at worst can be taken to negate or deny the fact that huge numbers of people who do not follow your strain of xianity are also messianic believers.

Judaism ITSELF IS messianic. It would be like me starting a new "Judaism" and my group calling our religion "HaShem-following Judaism". Our right? Sure, it would be our "right". But silly? Yes, absolutely. Why? Because it would be an exercise in attempting to distinguish ourselves by stating that we are exactly what every other form of Judaism is. LOL And it would also, by construct, be an insinuation that the other branches of Judaism are NOT HaShem-following in our eyes. Hello? Are any of you understanding, yet?

 

[Heber]

I do not understand your colour coding but my responses, if indeed the post I copy below should have been addressed to me, can be seen black, bold type.


messiahism versus messianism (as you used in your title -- others would use the word messianicism).

What 'title' are you speaking of - please explain? Messianism is a technical term, not a title! The word doesn't appear in my 'title'...?

I realize you have a particular issue you are concerned with, and you are posting out of that view -- that of finding a term that is inclusive of everyone within the messiahist movement itself. That is not at all relevant to my concern nor interest, much less my place to even discuss.

Well, strangely enough it is of interest to me - more so than your desire to Patent the word Messiahist...

My concern is rather opposite -- I, on the other hand, am concerned with the appropriating messiahism has done, of the term messianic, as an exclusive term which by nature necessarily at best overlooks, and at worst can be taken to negate or deny the fact that huge numbers of people who do not follow your strain of xianity are also messianic believers.

There is, here, a delightful mix and mis-use of terms in relation to anything I have posted. Are you sure you are addressing this post to the right person?

Judaism ITSELF IS messianic.

With which I have agreed . next step...

It would be like me starting a new "Judaism" and my group calling our religion "HaShem-following Judaism". Our right? Sure, it would be our "right". But silly? Yes, absolutely. Why? Because it would be an exercise in attempting to distinguish ourselves by stating that we are exactly what every other form of Judaism is. LOL And it would also, by construct, be an insinuation that the other branches of Judaism are NOT HaShem-following in our eyes. Hello? Are any of you understanding, yet?

If you feel it to be right, albeit silly, there is no reason why you should not be allowed to call yourself that. You may well consider that that is the case with other Jews hence the suggested name you have put forward. That is your prerogative - you certainly would not be the only person in history to a) think that or b) use a name that might be considered silly.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Now, for some ‘clarification’. Some of you may have noticed the mention of JHR. It’s ‘their’ forum of choice. And you should see what they state, about CF and Messianic Judaism.

Jayson (Administrator)
I've been talking with some people about refocusing the forum. I think the interfaith discussions were becoming a distraction, so I want to go away from that. We have arguments on other forums (CF and MT) that are geared toward countermissionary argumentation and training. I'll recreate a private forum for those who have specific sensitive issues to raise, but the forums will be more specifically dedicated to the study and understanding of the Hebrew language.

Notice, they (which includes about a handful of so called ‘Jewish’ posters here) have arguments on CF and MT that are geared toward countermissionary argumentation and training. Yet, they think the interfaith discussions were a distraction, even on their own board. So they will be limiting what they do here, over there as well. So as they complain about how we are shutting them out. Understand that the counter missionaries who frequent here are themselves limiting interfaith discussions on their own board. Quite hypocritical if you ask me.

I don't own a countermissionary forum. I own a HEBREW LANGUAGE STUDY, ASSISTANCE AND RESOURCE forum. The forum's purpose is to help people learn Hebrew, and there are those on the forum who had become distracted from that purpose by the existence of an interfaith section on the forum, since all of the posts mixed together when doing "new post" searches. At first I decided (when the forum was re-formed) to forgoe creation of an interfaith section in order to avoid that distraction and focus the entire forum on Hebrew language assistance. Subsequently, the members said that they enjoyed the interfaith section, so I created it as a (publically released) passworded subforum so that the posts would not appear as distractions for those who are not interested in them.

JHR stands for "Jewish Hebrew Resources." It is a forum for help and discussion about the Hebrew language, focusing especially on the biblical and modern periods. The forum crashed about a month ago and we are rebuilding at this stage. It is not that we do not enjoy the debate (for most of us really do), but the focus of our forum is much different from that of CF. Any and all are welcome to come to learn Hebrew and to ask questions about the Hebrew language. That's our purpose in having the forum, and to that end interfaith arguments were a distraction.

 

[ShirChadash]

OH and by the way LMAO, I have never ever been anyone but Zemirah and ShirChadash here, and I have always been entirely up front, from the moment I changed my name. My Zemirah account was merged with my ShirChadash account, once I knew they could do that I asked for it to be done, for the specific reason that I do not hide who I am, and have never ever hidden who I am. I personally notified the mods of this forum, and POSTED here when I changed my name, long long ago. So don't be a twit for once, couldja? You don't know all you think you do.

 

[Hentenza]

This venomous strife is exactly the reason why the MW forum was closed.

Thread Closed.​