Describe Messianism.

[Tishri1]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The Complete Jewish Bible [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Luke 18 - Study This Chapter[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 1 Then Yeshua told his talmidim a parable, in order to impress on them that they must always keep praying and not lose heart. 2 "In a certain town, there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected other people. 3 There was also in that town a widow who kept coming to him and saying, `Give me a judgment against the man who is trying to ruin me.' 4 For a long time he refused; but after awhile, he said to himself, `I don't fear God, and I don't respect other people; 5 but because this widow is such a nudnik, I will see to it that she gets justice -- otherwise, she'll keep coming and pestering me till she wears me out!'" 6 Then the Lord commented, "Notice what this corrupt judge says. 7 Now won't God grant justice to his chosen people who cry out to him day and night? Is he delaying long over them? 8 I tell you that he will judge in their favor, and quickly! But when the Son of Man comes, will he find this trust on the earth at all?" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 9 Also, to some who were relying on their own righteousness and looking down on everyone else, he told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Parush and the other a tax-collector. 11 The Parush stood and prayed to himself, `O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity -- greedy, dishonest, immoral, or like this tax-collector! 12 I fast twice a week, I pay tithes on my entire income, . . . ' 13 But the tax-collector, standing far off, would not even raise his eyes toward heaven, but beat his breast and said, `God! Have mercy on me, sinner that I am!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his home right with God rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but everyone who humbles himself will be exalted." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 15 People brought him babies to touch; but when the talmidim saw the people doing this, they rebuked them. 16 However, Yeshua called the children to him and said, "Let the children come to me, and stop hindering them, because the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Yes! I tell you that whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a little child will not enter it at all!" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 18 One of the leaders asked him, "Good rabbi, what should I do to obtain eternal life?" 19 Yeshua said to him, "Why are you calling me good? No one is good but God! 20 You know the mitzvot -- `Don't commit adultery, don't murder, don't steal, don't give false testimony, honor your father and mother, . . .'" 21 He replied, "I have kept all these since I was a boy." 22 On hearing this Yeshua said to him, "There is one thing you still lack. Sell whatever you have, distribute the proceeds to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come, follow me!" 23 But when the man heard this, he became very sad, because he was very rich. 24 Yeshua looked at him and said, "How hard it is for people with wealth to enter the Kingdom of God! 25 It's easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God!" 26 Those who heard this asked, "Then who can be saved?" 27 He said, "What is impossible humanly is possible with God." 28 Kefa said, "Look, we have left our homes and followed you." 29 Yeshua answered them, "Yes! I tell you that everyone who has left house, wife, brothers, parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 will receive many times as much in the `olam hazeh, and in the `olam haba eternal life." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 31 Then, taking the Twelve, Yeshua said to them, "We are now going up to Yerushalayim, where everything written through the prophets about the Son of Man will come true. 32 For he will be handed over to the Goyim and be ridiculed, insulted and spat upon. 33 Then, after they have beaten him, they will kill him. But on the third day he will rise." 34 However, they understood none of this; its meaning had been hidden from them, and they had no idea what he was talking about. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 35 As Yeshua approached Yericho, a blind man was sitting by the road, begging. 36 When he heard the crowd going past, he asked what it was all about; 37 and they told him, "Yeshua from Natzeret is passing by." 38 He called out, "Yeshua! Son of David! Have pity on me!" 39 Those in front scolded him in order to get him to shut up, but he shouted all the louder, "Son of David! Have pity on me!" 40 Yeshua stopped and ordered the man to be brought to him. When he had come, Yeshua asked him, 41 "What do you want me to do for you?" The blind man said, "Lord, let me be able to see." 42 Yeshua said to him, "See again! your trust has healed you!" 43 Instantly he received his sight and began following him, glorifying God; and when all the people saw it, they too praised God. [/FONT]
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[Tishri1]

I love how he contrasts his parable of the mean judge to his own dealings with a blind man he meets immediately after.....Yeshua is soooooooo awesome!!!

 

[ChavaK]

[quote]So you don't ever call someone a nudnik when they irritate the living daylights out of you?[/quote]

I guess my point is that is this something that a loving savior should be saying
to a woman?
And, no, I don't use nudnik because I find it quite insulting (although Yiddish
is a great language for insulting people, if that is something someone
chooses to do).

 

[Tishri1]

Yeshua didnt address a woman that way read it ChavaK

 

[Talmidah]

I'm just confused about why these guys in 1st century Israel would be speaking Yiddish, regardless of which Yiddish terms they used.

 

[ChavaK]

I'm just confused about why these guys in 1st century Israel would be speaking Yiddish, regardless of which Yiddish terms they used

Oh, you know why, wink wink.

 

[ChavaK]

Yeshua didnt address a woman that way read it ChavaK

My error; however referring to her as a nudnik, whether to
others or himself, is improper....it is insulting and belittling.

 

[anisavta]

Sigh.
Yeshua is telling a story. The judge is calling the lady a nudnik. Have you never told a story using another's words to someone else? Third person and all don't you know.
I think y'all are trying to nitpick instead of reading the whole exchange Tishri posted.
I suppose we could all go back and read everything in old English instead of a modern translation that might make more sense to someone. And believe it or not there are many people out in our vast world that would find a modern translation refreshing.

 

[Heber]

It's funny how people get hung up on one translator's efforts at teasing out what he/she sees in the texts instead of looking at the meaning of the parable - faith in G_d (or the lack of it). Everyone translates languages in a different way - not one of us can go back and get exactly the writer's understanding! I would probably translate that as the lady being a real pain in the neck (or posterior) who simply nagged the poor guy nearly to death over this situation. Now, some of you would feel that was too heavy, I'm sure, but it is a parable - it has parts that are over emphasised to make the point. That is what parables do, get over it for goodness sake and look at the teaching instead of useless arguments about the translation. If it were to be a translation that altered the direction of the outcome of the parable then we need to look at it carefully - this argument doesn't change the parable one bit.

 

[2 King]

The Message's translation of Luke 18:5

"But because this widow won't quit badgering me, I'd better do something and see that she gets justice—otherwise I'm going to end up beaten black-and-blue by her pounding.'"

 

[Torah613]

Again, I agree. Just as there is small segment of Lubavitchers who have unfortunately stepped outside of Judaism are called meshichist due to their their heretical beliefs.

absolutely. according to the standard laws of the english language, Messiahist would be a much better descriptor.

For instance, its not Seventh Day Adventic but Seventh Day Adventist.

don't know really what the solution is, and don't really care as ultimately it is the members of a religion who must define/describe themselves. However, I do admit that the coopting of the term messianic is quite offensive as it implies that we, religious Jews, do not believe in a messiah. This offense is doubled when the term "Messianic Judaism" is used as it implies, according to the standard use of english syntax, that you those who adhere to it are a sect of Judaism that believes in the concept of a Messiah. Carried to its logical conclusion it implicates Jews in not believing in a Messiah--which we most definitly do.

messiahist would indicate that you believe in a specific Messiah, similar to the aforementioned sect of Lubavitchers. Or the followers of Shabbatai Zvi for that matter. however Messianic implies that you believe in the concept of a messiah but not a specific messiah.

Just my two shekels,
Yochi

 

[ShirChadash]

absolutely. according to the standard laws of the english language, Messiahist would be a much better descriptor.

For instance, its not Seventh Day Adventic but Seventh Day Adventist.

don't know really what the solution is, and don't really care as ultimately it is the members of a religion who must define/describe themselves. However, I do admit that the coopting of the term messianic is quite offensive as it implies that we, religious Jews, do not believe in a messiah. This offense is doubled when the term "Messianic Judaism" is used as it implies, according to the standard use of english syntax, that you those who adhere to it are a sect of Judaism that believes in the concept of a Messiah. Carried to its logical conclusion it implicates Jews in not believing in a Messiah--which we most definitly do.

messiahist would indicate that you believe in a specific Messiah, similar to the aforementioned sect of Lubavitchers. Or the followers of Shabbatai Zvi for that matter. however Messianic implies that you believe in the concept of a messiah but not a specific messiah.

Right on with your two shekels, Yochi.

 

[visionary]

ahh... but Modalists, Binitarians, and Trinitarians are not Messiahists.

 

[Heber]

I have just noticed, in Mishkan (issue 59) another title that sounds much better than Messiahist - Yeshua Judaism. Sums it up nicely - the Judaism that Yeshua espoused. No confusion with Judaism as such, no confusion with the word Messiah and no confusion with any part of the Church. Oh, and its a darn sight easier to get your tongue around, too!

As there is a throwing in and 'demanding' a new name be found, I'll insist on this one! Clarity, original, full of meaning and real coooooool.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua Judaism.. very clear... now would that satisfy the controversy over our name? If so, could it be incorporated into the body of beleivers?

 

[ShirChadash]

ahh... but Modalists, Binitarians, and Trinitarians are not Messiahists.

Have you read what we're writing? Anyone who claims any specific messiah is a messiahist. Period. It's basic English grammar at its best.

 

[ShirChadash]

So what is the issue with using messiahist instead of messianic? Why is this insulting???

 

[anisavta]

Funny how a few people with bees in their bonnets think anyone outside of our little "community" cares if others don't like something that has been established.
You can call me Ray or you can call me RayJay or you can call me JayJay...
I am a Jewish believer in Yeshua. I believe in Moshiach therefore I am a Messianic Jew. And I am darn proud to be called either of those. Sorry if y'all can't except that. But then again I get my marching orders from a Higher Source so it really don't matter much if ya don't like my titles.

 

[Shimshon]

Because the ‘controversy’ is not over the name, but over ‘who is a Jew’. The orthodox rabbinical Jews that you seek acceptance from tell you night and day that a Jew is only a Jew if they follow Judaism ‘ala’ rabbinical orthodox halacha. They object quite vehemently to anyone outside of their ‘tradition’ being labeled, called, named, or titles as ‘Jewish’, or following ‘Judaism’. Which is why they are here! Hence your controversy, it won’t matter what you name it. If it has the term “Jew” in it, they will fight you to the death that you are NOT a Jew or following Judaism. Your controversy will never go away with them till Yeshua returns, or you remove the term Judaism from the label and stop believing you are Jewish in any way.

Come on vis, you want them to accept gentiles as a person of Jewish faith when they reject blood born Jews from being included. Have you not heard it enough? “halacha determines if your Jewish NOT blood!!!”

You want to satisfy a controversy that started thousands of years ago by the will of God by incorporating a label on a body of believers?

I know a way to satisfy the controversy locally, here in this forum. Continue in what has been started, removed the unbelieving Jews from your midst. The owner of this forum has said many times that he desires to have ‘congregational’ type subforums. Little Churches. As in any Church, anyone is allowed to walk in and fellowship, but NEVER inform it’s congregants that they are wrong and misinformed. No matter how nice they try to be about it, that is just not proper, and is ‘anti-missionary’ in every way. The leader will ask them to leave every time. Besides, if you truly desire to be a light to them, go to their sites and forums and be a ‘guest’. They have places where they will discuss this with you. What Church willingly and daily invites denominations who vocally and purposely oppose their faith?

These forums allowed unbelieving Jews to come in and be a mouth piece for ‘Judaism’. In my opinion they are the ones who stirred controversy and strife over ‘who is a Jew’ and how we true Messianic Jews, born by BLOOD are merely Xtians. The tolerance here has lead to its downfall. Though I applaud the staff for now changing things back to the way it should have been.

I never agreed with the way unbelieving Jews were allowed to define Judaism for us. I am glad this has ended. About time the leaven was removed. Love for Judaism is blinding many gentiles, in many ways. Remove the lie that rabbinical Judaism is ‘real’ Judaism and you will find Biblical Judaism.


P.S. on a side note, I actually like the term Yeshua Judaism. But I just think you missed the point. ‘Judaism’ is the controversy, not the qualifier. The controversy is rabbinical orthodoxy does not and will never see anyone Jewish outside of ‘their halacha’. You best just give that one up, to God. It’s what we Jewish ‘fathers’ have to do. Why should you be any different?

 

[Heber]

SC - Messianic Judaism has been used for many, many years in this context - it is certainly not a new name. By the same token you may well claim it has been borrowed, in its root form, directly from Judaism. Now, that may well be true but there is no copyright on the name. I think, in all honesty, that for someone to think that a Messianic Jew is a part of 'normal' Judiasm, as such, in this day and age is pushing the imagination a little far.

The same arguments were put forward in relation to Reform Judaism, as I recall, that they should not use that title because, in the eyes of many orthodox Jews, they simply were not 'real' Jews any longer in the normal, accepted use of the word. Therefore they should not use the word Jew or its derivatives in their title. They won the day, ultimately, though there was not (and is not, still) universal acceptance by other Jews.

As said above, it will be necessary to find a new name at some point that takes in those who might call themselves Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles, but I think the movement itself must be free to choose the name it wishes to use; it will not be an overnight process but a more long term gradual realisation that the existing title does not fit any longer. The new title will need to incorporate something that joins both the Jewish and 'Christian' aspects of the movement - your suggested name does not really do that. Therein lies a part of the problem - but is not just about Jews!