Describe Messianism.

[Tishri1]

Shavua tov!

I think messiahist is reasonable and fitting.

I was merely elucidating some thoughts I have had recently. I think it's a shame that followers of certain variants of xianity tend to lay claim to certain terms and use them restrictively (terms such as "Messianic", "Believer", etc.), as though those terms naturally exclude Jews practicing Judaism since we hold to HaShem Alone and not your messiah. I don't think, in the end, it's an accurate portrayal of others to use these terms so exclusively.

Im not sure you know what I mean, Messianic is someone who embraces Yeshua as the Messiah of Israel, if messiahist or what ever other lable you want to place on us is just a group who embrace a generic messiah that wouldnt be us, I think just as Christian denotes someone who believes in Jesus and not some generic messiah so does Messianic denote someone who believes in Yeshua and not some generic Messiah.

 

[ShirChadash]

I completely know what you mean . I think you may fail to see what I was saying.

Im not sure you know what I mean, Messianic is someone who embraces Yeshua as the Messiah of Israel, if messiahist or what ever other lable you want to place on us is just a group who embrace a generic messiah that wouldnt be us, I think just as Christian denotes someone who believes in Jesus and not some generic messiah so does Messianic denote someone who believes in Yeshua and not some generic Messiah.

Only to you (and others of your same belief). Which, as you are Chrisitan, I would expect that of you since, as I said above,

~ I think it's a shame that followers of certain variants of Chrsianity tend to lay claim to certain terms and use them restrictively (terms such as "Messianic", "Believer", etc.) ~

Messiahist actually would accurately refer to anyone who claims any specific messiah, and that would be you.

Messianic, however, is a non-exclusive, non-restrictive term that most definitely includes not only Jews, but also (unless I am mistaken) Muslims. From my own experience, it even would include some people who do not necessarily believe in or practice any of the three religions just mentioned.

Christian, by the very construct of the term, is an exclusive and definite term.

Messiahist is as well.

Messianic is not.

Believer is not.


Messiahism very accuately, and fairly, describes your faith.

 

[Tishri1]

I can see why you want to apply some other term, and take name Messianic away from us, since you do not believe in Yeshua anymore. I can see that should you win at destroying the credibility of Messianics to the name then you might be able to make us insignificant in this world...sorry though but you cant have it all, we fit the picture of true followers of Messiah Yeshua and the name Messianic fits us perfectly. I know of no other group called Messianic and thats just fine with me.

 

[anisavta]

I could see how it could be a problem of identification if Jews not believing in Yeshua had the title of Messianics already. But since they don't it just seems like a sour grape thing to make a big deal of Jews and Gentiles who do believe Yeshua is Messiah for having the title. Yes non Messianics are waiting for the Messiah to come. But that is for the most part not a high priority issue within Judaism - unless they want to argue.
I personally think the term Messiahist is a little nit picky. Should we call y'all Judists then?

 

[Heber]

Technically Messianism is the study of Jewish aspirations in relation to their own desire / search for Messiah based on the Tanakh.

'Messianic Judaism' is now, by common usage, the term given to all Jews who believe that Yeshua is that Messiah and who follow a very distiinctive lifestyle that reflects that view, based on the Tanakh and the latter testament.

Messianic Believers is becoming a more common term to refer to ALL who believe that Yeshua is that Messiah and who follow a very distinctive lifestyle that reflects that view, whether they are Jews or Gentiles, based on the Tanakh and the latter testament.

Those who say that Jews are Messianic are correct (hence the term Messianism) but... the term is rarely applied in that context, except in a limited, academic way. The term Messianic has, for the past 40 or so years, been taken by Jews and Gentiles to hold the meanings shown immediately above.

There is, therefore, a 'circle of confusion' in the use of the name which causes problems both within Judaism and the Messianic Movement - common usage of the terms will resolve this issue except that, although we have Messianic Judaism (for Jews) we do not, yet, have the equivalent for Gentiles who, as in Acts 15, want to join Messianic Jews in worship of the fullness of G_d in this way. This is a far bigger issue in my opinion!

 

[TanteBelle]

What about Non-trinitarian Messianics? Would it be fair to say that Messianics, and Messianism are two different things?

What about non-trinitarians?

 

[Heber]

What about non-trinitarians?

The term Messianic Believers (or Messianic Movement) coming into more common usage now, is intended to be inclusive - Jews and Gentiles, Trinitarian or non-Trinitarian. It only excludes Jews and Christians who are not Messianic in lifestyle.

 

[ShirChadash]

I can see why you want to apply some other term, and take name Messianic away from us, since you do not believe in Yeshua anymore. I can see that should you win at destroying the credibility of Messianics to the name then you might be able to make us insignificant in this world...sorry though but you cant have it all, we fit the picture of true followers of Messiah Yeshua and the name Messianic fits us perfectly. I know of no other group called Messianic and thats just fine with me.

Actually, it seems to me that it is you -- and followers of your particular brand of Christianity -- who have appropriated the term and deny its universal applicability, and are using it to the exclusivity of every other group that is Messianic at all. Even other Christians are Messianic, yet you use it in direct exclusion of all others who expect the Moshiach. It is out of that observation, I post my musings. You can keep your personal digs and mischaracterizations for those of us who have followed G-d's leading into Judaism; if you take issue with us, you will have to take it up with Him, Tish. Then again, when you make those digs, your true colors show so I guess I should leave you to them, miss administrator.

Ani you can feel free to call me a Judist if you like. Of course, Jewish is another of the broad terms and would fall in line with those broader terms I listed above, but it's okay by me. Maybe we could call you folks Messiahist Judists .

Messiahist is merely specific and descriptive without the appropriating and denying those outside ~whatever circle~ that is so common within Christianity -- and if you are wanting to be specific, as opposed to simply identifying as "Christian", then Messiahist is an entirely reasonable term, and neither is it inaccurate nor offensive.

 

[Heber]

SC how widespread is the use of your favoured title, outside of your own faith?

The word could, by your own argument that you have equal right to any word that contains the word Messiah, apply to you as well; it is not terribly specific, as you claim.

Bearing in mind that it is primarily Jews who use the term 'Messianic' (whether meaning believers in Yeshua or not) its use is in keeping with your criteria - that it is a Jewish word for use by Jews. Now, you may wish to argue that Jews who believe in Yeshua as Messiah are not Jews, but that is a different argument. If you wish to call them Christians then, again, you are using the Messiah word which was the Hebrew root of the Greek 'Christian'. The circle is complete!

 

[ChavaK]

Messianism is not a denomination; it is the faith. When Acts says that they were first called Messianics in Antioch

Where in Acts is the term "Messianic" specifically used?
Is it used elsewhere after that?

 

[Heber]

Where in Acts is the term "Messianic" specifically used?
Is it used elsewhere after that?

Chavak,

Look at Acts 11:26 where it translates, through the Greek to 'Christian'. The same term is used, also, at Acts 26:28; see esp. the use at 1 Kefa 4:16.

 

[insaneinthebrain]

Where in Acts is the term "Messianic" specifically used?
Is it used elsewhere after that?

It's only there if you use Stern's Jewish New Testament

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. They met with the congregation there for a whole year and taught a sizeable crowd. Also it was in Antioch that the talmidim for the first time were called "Messianic."

 

[Heber]

?

That doesn't make sense. The word Christian is used in many versions - that word is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Messianic, is it not, whether Stern is involved or not?

 

[anisavta]

Technically Messianism is the study of Jewish aspirations in relation to their own desire / search for Messiah based on the Tanakh.

'Messianic Judaism' is now, by common usage, the term given to all Jews who believe that Yeshua is that Messiah and who follow a very distiinctive lifestyle that reflects that view, based on the Tanakh and the latter testament.

Messianic Believers is becoming a more common term to refer to ALL who believe that Yeshua is that Messiah and who follow a very distinctive lifestyle that reflects that view, whether they are Jews or Gentiles, based on the Tanakh and the latter testament.

Those who say that Jews are Messianic are correct (hence the term Messianism) but... the term is rarely applied in that context, except in a limited, academic way. The term Messianic has, for the past 40 or so years, been taken by Jews and Gentiles to hold the meanings shown immediately above.

There is, therefore, a 'circle of confusion' in the use of the name which causes problems both within Judaism and the Messianic Movement - common usage of the terms will resolve this issue except that, although we have Messianic Judaism (for Jews) we do not, yet, have the equivalent for Gentiles who, as in Acts 15, want to join Messianic Jews in worship of the fullness of G_d in this way. This is a far bigger issue in my opinion!

Well said.

 

[anisavta]

Ani you can feel free to call me a Judist if you like. Of course, Jewish is another of the broad terms and would fall in line with those broader terms I listed above, but it's okay by me. Maybe we could call you folks Messiahist Judists .

And that is my point Shir.
No one calls Jews Judists and no one calls Messianic Jews Messiahist Judists. You are a Jew and I am a Messianic Jew. Those are just the titles we go by. You believe that Messiah is yet to reveal himself and I believe He already has. We both have the common ground that:
12. I believe with complete faith in the coming of Moshiach, and although he may tarry, nevertheless, I wait every day for him to come.

 

[visionary]

Actually, it seems to me that it is you -- and followers of your particular brand of Christianity -- who have appropriated the term and deny its universal applicability, and are using it to the exclusivity of every other group that is Messianic at all. Even other Christians are Messianic, yet you use it in direct exclusion of all others who expect the Moshiach. It is out of that observation, I post my musings. You can keep your personal digs and mischaracterizations for those of us who have followed G-d's leading into Judaism; if you take issue with us, you will have to take it up with Him, Tish. Then again, when you make those digs, your true colors show so I guess I should leave you to them, miss administrator.

Ani you can feel free to call me a Judist if you like. Of course, Jewish is another of the broad terms and would fall in line with those broader terms I listed above, but it's okay by me. Maybe we could call you folks Messiahist Judists .

Messiahist is merely specific and descriptive without the appropriating and denying those outside ~whatever circle~ that is so common within Christianity -- and if you are wanting to be specific, as opposed to simply identifying as "Christian", then Messiahist is an entirely reasonable term, and neither is it inaccurate nor offensive.

As an organized religion.. Messianic Judaism was the name chosen for this group to define a group of believers who believe that Yeshua is the Messiah and that biblical Judaism is the religious style outline by God to follow which we believers do with the help of the Holy Spirit.

This current discussion of the definitions and the body of believers it encompasses by definition is not the reason we are identified as MJ. We have chosen this name because it identifies us, not by definition of individual terms so much as it does by the very name itself, the combination of Messianic [Yeshua] and Judaism [worship style and extent of faith].

 

[ChavaK]

Look at Acts 11:26 where it translates, through the Greek to 'Christian'. The same term is used, also, at Acts 26:28; see esp. the use at 1 Kefa 4:16.

Thanks, I'll go take a look.

 

[Heber]

As an organized religion.. Messianic Judaism

That it certainly isn't. The Messianic movement has no settled systematic theology, no distinct creed, no agreed doctrines etc etc. We are joined not by organisation or defined membership, but by a common belief that Yeshua is the Jewish Saviour of the world, and a commonality of desire to change our lives in the light of that fact - whether we are Jews or Gentiles.

 

[ChavaK]

Look at Acts 11:26 where it translates, through the Greek to 'Christian'.

Every source I looked at translates it as "Christian"...so how did it get changed
to "Messianic"?
What does the Greek word actually say?

 

[insaneinthebrain]

?

That doesn't make sense. The word Christian is used in many versions - that word is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Messianic, is it not, whether Stern is involved or not?

My reason for pointing out that only Stern translates it that way has everything to do with what Chava said:

Every source I looked at translates it as "Christian"...so how did it get changed
to "Messianic"?
What does the Greek word actually say?

Regardless of how you want to translate it, saying the term "Messianic" is in the Bible and then sending people out to look it up in any translation other than Stern's is just going to confuse them. Especially in a forums that's been know to argue that Messianic and Christian aren't always the same thing.