Denying Yourself

[salt-n-light]

I had a chance to witness to an old friend this week through my testimony. I use to identify as a bisexual and he right now came out as gay as well as dropped the christian faith. One of the verses I shared with him was Matthew 16:24, and the following comments/questions came out of that.

The convo went something like this:

Me: "So I use to identify as a bisexual. I was scared to tell my parents because of the backlash I would get. They still don't know. I tried to figure out how to make it work, should I go leave for a LGBT affirming church and just live my life..."

Friend:" Whoa, and did you?"

Me: " At first, I was searching for answers elsewhere like you did, to help cope and clear up. Somehow I had a mental breakdown like "who am I?"..."am I destined for hell?" "how to navigate this life now"

Friend:" Wow this is like looking at myself in the mirror years ago"

Me:"..so as I had my mental breakdown figuring out who I was and seeing that it was a "bisexual christian", it didn't seem right.Why are those two terms in the same place? Then Matthew 16:24 came to me, and I realized that I did not truly deny myself... I wanted to be what I wanted in the same level as what God wanted me to be"

Friend: " But why would I deny myself? I'm not doing anything to hurt anyone"

Me: " Its not a matter of if you are doing good or bad things, its a matter of identity."

Friend: "But people, I feel, if they truly really love God, can have their relationships. Gay christians do exist..."

Me:" Well see many people have alot of goals and ambitions, things they desire, and want to see. They have their vision of what it should look like. And they then create a world in which such can exist. But the problem is that they are banking that things of the world will last, that its worth investing your soul into. Its not. That somehow they can have a hold of that, they can't. And creating a permanent identity off of it makes it worst. Because you end up putting energy into an identity that is just relative to situation, it bears no truth.

Life is a vapor. Who I'm attracted to, the partners, etc, is a vapor. We easily bank on our sexuality being a source of identity, of your truth, when that is fallable. Jesus challenged that in Matthew 16:24. To deny it, meaning start fresh, be born again, and follow Jesus. Put identity in where it is true and would last."

Friend:"So should I then say that gays have to be celibate? Or that somehow the demons come out of them and they will desire to be straight?"

Me: "No they shouldn't focus on trying to be homosexual nor heterosexual, nor how that future should or would look like. Just to trust and follow God, holding on to the promises that God established."

Friend: *smirks* " Been there, done that. I struggled so many years, trusting God, and I'm still the way I am. I finally got honest with myself"

Me:" And you should be, and I'm glad you are honest with what your desires are. Im honest too, if you were to give me a definition of my sexuality, it would be bisexual.I still find myself attracted to both sexes. And I wish more people can be honest with how they truly are.But what you do with that information? Do you make it now your identity? Should your life now be driven by it? Would life be not worth it if you didn't have that as your identity?"

Friend:"Hmmm was just playing devil's advocate.Easy for you to say though, you still desire men. But for me, i just don't desire the opposite sex"

Me:" Jesus didn't call us to just be with a partner, or to desire anyone. Yes our bodies were created to do things, be intimate, produce, there is alot of things we can still do even as fallen people, we will still have such desires to . But even if it was heterosexual desires, Jesus will still challenged even that. For as long as such desires are keeping your heart in this world, it will not last, it will destroy you. Thats why He said to deny yourself."

Friend:" Thats hard...thats way too hard..."

He's right. It is hard. Its a tough task.And alot of people, even if they love that God, totally dismiss the probability that its not a walk that you get what you want. That is not something you easily jump on. That what makes self-denial so powerful. The end of it though is that all pressures that come from keeping up these identities start to fade, and you find freedom and bear fruit from being God's image bearers. You walk in the joy and peace that we were suppose to walk in. And not a false version of it found in making identities.

This is the power I saw in Matthew 16:24. God bless.

 

[iEye]

15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate.
16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good.
17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t.
19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway.
20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong.
22 I love God’s law with all my heart.
23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.
24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?
25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

 

[teresa]

Romans 7:15-20

 

[iEye]

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.—1 Corinthians 15:19

 

[Follower3]

Find a way to tell him that not denying himself can hurt him, and someone else. All sin leads to destruction in one way or another, we are not to be gluttons because eating too much hurts our body. We are not to be liars because lying causes confusion, pain, and makes people distrust us. His first major argument was that his sin isn't hurting anyone. Let him know that that is wrong.

He also seems to be pushing God into the background, and or making his own God the way he wants him to be. Get him to think about how real God is. No one would ever sin if they thought God was right next to them, that is the faith thing, and the we make excuses thing.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Our identity is the children of God, royal priesthood, not anything based on freshly lusts:

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. (1 Peter 2:9-11)​

 

[dayhiker]

To me the context of Mt. 16:24 is seen in the words come after me and follow me. So to deny ourself is to not hide from Jesus being out lord. To tell people we are followers of Christ.
Our idenity is who God created us to be and that will be eternal. Ya our physical life in this world will end, but that doesn't change who we are in eternity. In the resurrection we will have a body that isn't a vapor.
Our sexuality is one part of who we are in Christ. For me to say I'm hetero or homo or bisexual is fine as far as I'm concern. Its no different than to say I'm a husband or a wife or a friend. Surely we all no one word isn't the definition of who we are.

 

[Tom 1]

I had a chance to witness to an old friend this week through my testimony. I use to identify as a bisexual and he right now came out as gay as well as dropped the christian faith. One of the verses I shared with him was Matthew 16:24, and the following comments/questions came out of that.

The convo went something like this:

Me: "So I use to identify as a bisexual. I was scared to tell my parents because of the backlash I would get. They still don't know. I tried to figure out how to make it work, should I go leave for a LGBT affirming church and just live my life..."

Friend:" Whoa, and did you?"

Me: " At first, I was searching for answers elsewhere like you did, to help cope and clear up. Somehow I had a mental breakdown like "who am I?"..."am I destined for hell?" "how to navigate this life now"

Friend:" Wow this is like looking at myself in the mirror years ago"

Me:"..so as I had my mental breakdown figuring out who I was and seeing that it was a "bisexual christian", it didn't seem right.Why are those two terms in the same place? Then Matthew 16:24 came to me, and I realized that I did not truly deny myself... I wanted to be what I wanted in the same level as what God wanted me to be"

Friend: " But why would I deny myself? I'm not doing anything to hurt anyone"

Me: " Its not a matter of if you are doing good or bad things, its a matter of identity."

Friend: "But people, I feel, if they truly really love God, can have their relationships. Gay christians do exist..."

Me:" Well see many people have alot of goals and ambitions, things they desire, and want to see. They have their vision of what it should look like. And they then create a world in which such can exist. But the problem is that they are banking that things of the world will last, that its worth investing your soul into. Its not. That somehow they can have a hold of that, they can't. And creating a permanent identity off of it makes it worst. Because you end up putting energy into an identity that is just relative to situation, it bears no truth.

Life is a vapor. Who I'm attracted to, the partners, etc, is a vapor. We easily bank on our sexuality being a source of identity, of your truth, when that is fallable. Jesus challenged that in Matthew 16:24. To deny it, meaning start fresh, be born again, and follow Jesus. Put identity in where it is true and would last."

Friend:"So should I then say that gays have to be celibate? Or that somehow the demons come out of them and they will desire to be straight?"

Me: "No they shouldn't focus on trying to be homosexual nor heterosexual, nor how that future should or would look like. Just to trust and follow God, holding on to the promises that God established."

Friend: *smirks* " Been there, done that. I struggled so many years, trusting God, and I'm still the way I am. I finally got honest with myself"

Me:" And you should be, and I'm glad you are honest with what your desires are. Im honest too, if you were to give me a definition of my sexuality, it would be bisexual.I still find myself attracted to both sexes. And I wish more people can be honest with how they truly are.But what you do with that information? Do you make it now your identity? Should your life now be driven by it? Would life be not worth it if you didn't have that as your identity?"

Friend:"Hmmm was just playing devil's advocate.Easy for you to say though, you still desire men. But for me, i just don't desire the opposite sex"

Me:" Jesus didn't call us to just be with a partner, or to desire anyone. Yes our bodies were created to do things, be intimate, produce, there is alot of things we can still do even as fallen people, we will still have such desires to . But even if it was heterosexual desires, Jesus will still challenged even that. For as long as such desires are keeping your heart in this world, it will not last, it will destroy you. Thats why He said to deny yourself."

Friend:" Thats hard...thats way too hard..."

He's right. It is hard. Its a tough task.And alot of people, even if they love that God, totally dismiss the probability that its not a walk that you get what you want. That is not something you easily jump on. That what makes self-denial so powerful. The end of it though is that all pressures that come from keeping up these identities start to fade, and you find freedom and bear fruit from being God's image bearers. You walk in the joy and peace that we were suppose to walk in. And not a false version of it found in making identities.

This is the power I saw in Matthew 16:24. God bless.

Very insightful, thanks for sharing this

 

[salt-n-light]

To me the context of Mt. 16:24 is seen in the words come after me and follow me. So to deny ourself is to not hide from Jesus being out lord. To tell people we are followers of Christ.
Our idenity is who God created us to be and that will be eternal. Ya our physical life in this world will end, but that doesn't change who we are in eternity. In the resurrection we will have a body that isn't a vapor.
Our sexuality is one part of who we are in Christ. For me to say I'm hetero or homo or bisexual is fine as far as I'm concern. Its no different than to say I'm a husband or a wife or a friend. Surely we all no one word isn't the definition of who we are.

On my end, the point is that you core identity is being God's image bearer. Jesus challenged it many times, if you don't hate your mom, dad, even your own life, you are not His disciple.(Luke 14:26). If you want to follow me, you have to deny yourself and pick up the cross daily, then comes the follow me.Not parts of yourself, all of yourself. That means you can't truly follow him, without whatever you are, dead first.It had nothing to do with showing others that you are a follower, and everything to do with untying who you are to things that are of flesh, and sexuality is one of the thing based on flesh. To be a follower, you have to be willling to drop it all and it will be a daily struggle.

Sexuality is part of what we are in this life, but I cannot take that with me when I die. When I die, am I still gay, am I still a wife, a mother, would that even matter? No. So even sexuality doesn't speak about who I am at my core. Nothing wrong with addressing it, but once people start to put all their hearts into being mothers, being homosexual, being whatever identity they see is their ultimate truth, it takes away focus on the one identity that should be our actual truth. Paul expresses that when talking about even married people, when you are married its harder you're desires are split. I imagine the same for any other role we assume in this world. And I can also imagine in every case, if they had to decision to give up being a mom, being a homosexual, being a sister, being whatever identity they see themselves as to just be God's, and to trust God that He will take care of me, that he will provide my needs according to HIS riches, that God is still good whether or not I get to play out whatever role I wanted for me, it would not be an easy decision. Its not meant to be.

Im going off lol, but point is that Jesus called us out of having our hearts on how we see ourselves in this world, to walk into an identity in Him. In order for that to happen, you can't bank that these roles are who you are, those roles will come and go easily. Its what God said you are. Whenever people assume roles and put christian next to it, its a split focus. One thing to call them desires, another to make it an absolute truth about you.

 

[salt-n-light]

Very insightful, thanks for sharing this

God bless you

 

[dayhiker]

ahhhh .. that is a view I've read about before ... I don't believe that our sexuality will be cut out of us as I believe our sexuality is an integral part of who God created us to be. I also don't believe my role of son will change when I meet my mother in eternity. This life is part of God creating me to be who he wants me to be and I don't see it as a side tract that God has to undo to get me to be who he has planned for me to be.

 

[salt-n-light]

ahhhh .. that is a view I've read about before ... I don't believe that our sexuality will be cut out of us as I believe our sexuality is an integral part of who God created us to be. I also don't believe my role of son will change when I meet my mother in eternity. This life is part of God creating me to be who he wants me to be and I don't see it as a side tract that God has to undo to get me to be who he has planned for me to be.

So I'm guessing thats a no, you wouldn't leave it behind. Because it goes along the logic that somehow God isn't that type of person to ask you to sacrifice that.Even though He said you would.

This is why Jesus said that you must be born-again. The identity that is flesh driven will bound you to hopes of this world. To be born-again, those flesh-driven identities has to die.The hope that somehow serving your sexual desires will fulfill you must die. The hope that you will still keep the relationships with your family, friends, lovers, must die. Your will has to die.

Plenty of examples in the Bible, where people were literally undone so that they were able to walk in God's will. We are not exempt.

There's no loophole.

 

[dayhiker]

So I'm guessing thats a no, you wouldn't leave it behind. Because it goes along the logic that somehow God isn't that type of person to ask you to sacrifice that.Even though He said you would.

This is why Jesus said that you must be born-again. The identity that is flesh driven will bound you to hopes of this world. To be born-again, those flesh-driven identities has to die.The hope that somehow serving your sexual desires will fulfill you must die. The hope that you will still keep the relationships with your family, friends, lovers, must die. Your will has to die.

Plenty of examples in the Bible, where people were literally undone so that they were able to walk in God's will. We are not exempt.

There's no loophole.

Of course I believer that my sinful nature will be removed, it has been being removed for over 50 years now. But there is no where in the Bible that says God's creation is sinful. Nor is our sexuality that God created us with said to be sinful. Every good gift is from God. Paul said over and over that everything is clean and pure to those who live by faith. No loop hole, just being who God created me to be.
And what are you saying, my mother who loved Jesus and was born of God for 83 years is going to be cast out of heaven? So no one who loved her will ever see her again? What type of God are you following? God love people and Jesus is creating a fellowship of saints called the church that will worship God for eternity and be the bride of Christ. I have no clue what your talking about.

 

[salt-n-light]

Of course I believer that my sinful nature will be removed, it has been being removed for over 50 years now. But there is no where in the Bible that says God's creation is sinful. Nor is our sexuality that God created us with said to be sinful. Every good gift is from God. Paul said over and over that everything is clean and pure to those who live by faith. No loop hole, just being who God created me to be.
And what are you saying, my mother who loved Jesus and was born of God for 83 years is going to be cast out of heaven? So no one who loved her will ever see her again? What type of God are you following? God love people and Jesus is creating a fellowship of saints called the church that will worship God for eternity and be the bride of Christ. I have no clue what your talking about.

No where in the Bible that God's creation is sinful? We are born in sin (Romans 3:23), deserving of Hell since sin can't enter His gates.Which is the point of Jesus coming to die for our sins. That desire to sin doesn't go away, even after we follow Him, that why He asked us to crucify our flesh daily, and that death will be our final enemy. But we no longer identify with it, we are not slaves to it. If you didnt really crucify your flesh, its easy to fall into identifying with it and making it your truth. This is how our heart can be desperately wicked and deceiving (Jeremiah 17:9)

Someone can be a heterosexual, but what good is that identity without someone to exercise it on? Remove the object of desire, and what is something so integrated and a truth for them, becomes a thorn on their side. That goes for any sexuality, any relationship, in a blink of an eye, it can be obsolete.The wife you love, gone. The house you wanted, gone. The companionship you desire? Forget it. The kids you put money on, they are gone. Vanities of vanities. If you weren't able to have your sexual desires, would it make the walk less fruitful? If you weren't able to see your love one again, is God no longer good?

Read up on Job.Thats the type of God I'm following.

So when Jesus said to deny such things, he is putting the Christian faith into perspective, this is testing if you're truly after God's own heart, ask anyone if they are willing to give up the most precious, personal thing about them for God, even if its means suffering til death. For some it is people, for some it is desires.But because people hearts are tied into this world, they put identity into this life, into people, the imagery that you have to deny yourself, you have to hate your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister, even your own life to be His disciple, sounds cruel. God knows we would idolized these things in our hearts. Jesus is saying "You wanna follow me rich man, why don't sell off everything you got....It's not easy, but this is the only way, and this walk I promise you the fruits of the Spirit and eternal life. You will have an expected end. I will provide all your needs according to His riches in glory. You will be blessed.You will never thirst again."

For alot of people Jesus is their Saviour, but not their Lord.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Matthew 16: 24-27 (NASB) Jesus: Christ-following Is Spiritually Costly...(extracts: parens + caps mine)
24 Then Jesus said to His DISCIPLES, (saved believers!)
“If anyone wishes to COME AFTER Me (use Me as an example and model), he MUST:
>>1. deny himself, AND (spiritually put God, family, neighbors, world...BEFORE SELF)
>>2. take up his cross AND (spiritually bear sacrificial burdens of trusting and obeying and serving, etc)
>>3. follow Me. (spiritually imitate the perfect example of Jesus and His precepts)
25 For whoever wishes to save his (spiritual) life will lose it;
but whoever loses his (earthly) life for My sake will find it.
26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole (material) world and forfeits his soul (/spirit)?
Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul (/spirit)?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, (Second Coming !)
and will then repay every man (believer) according to his deeds. (Judgment of the Believer's Works after salvation)

Luke 14:25-33 (NASB) ....Discipleship Tested
25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them (unsaved large crowds),
26 “If anyone comes to Me (FOLLOWS!), and
does not "hate" (lesser priority?) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters,
yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
27 Whoever does not "carry his own cross" (willingly sacrifice self)
and come after (FOLLOW!) Me cannot be My disciple.(pupil)
(EXAMPLES
28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and
"calculate the cost" to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’
31 Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle,
will not first "sit down and consider" whether he is strong enough
with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up (lowest priority?) all his own possessions.