Denying Jesus

SabbathBlessings said:

Why don’t you seek to find what the New Covenant is established on, better promises Heb 8:6, not changing God’s perfect law that He said He would not alter Psa 89:34. Until the focus is changed what the New Covenant is established on, those better promises, one will only be looking in the wrong direction.

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I'm trying to get more clarity as to what you meant by the 10 commandments not being a part of the old covenant (or broadly rejecting the idea). It seems however you are refusing to answer this and are only deflecting which forces me to draw a conclusion that you are unable to defend this position. Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well in terms of your credibility on all your positions. If I can't trust you to defend your own remarks how am I supposed to trust you on larger issues?

DamianWarS said:

I'm trying to get more clarity as to what you meant by the 10 commandments not being a part of the old covenant (or broadly rejecting the idea). It seems however you are refusing to answer this and are only deflecting which forces me to draw a conclusion that you are unable to defend this position. Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well in terms of your credibility on all your positions. If I can't trust you to defend your own remarks how am I supposed to trust you on larger issues?

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You cannot as long as SB continues to believe the writings of Ellen White and uses Ellen's thoughts in debate.

If people study 2Cor 3:6-11 where Paul tells us the Ten Commandments were transient (temporary) ( the King James version says "done away") there would not be a debate concerning them. The Ten were given to one nation as a guide. At Pentecost, a new guide was given to all mankind, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That was a promise given by Jesus before He departed to Heaven to sit at the Father's right hand.

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Eph 2 tells us the same fact. At the Cross Jesus fulfilled the Law (brought it to an end) and Paul in Eph 2 verifies this fact.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Bob S said:

If people study 2Cor 3:6-11 where Paul tells us the Ten Commandments were transient (temporary) ( the King James version says "done away") there would not be a debate concerning them. The Ten were given to one nation as a guide. At Pentecost, a new guide was given to all mankind, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That was a promise given by Jesus before He departed to Heaven to sit at the Father's right hand.

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Eph 2 tells us the same fact. At the Cross Jesus fulfilled the Law (brought it to an end) and Paul in Eph 2 verifies this fact.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

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Bob you know very well Jesus said the law would never pass, Jesus answered a man asking what to do to have eternal life and Jesus enumerated to him the commandments!, I quoted to you this verse from Jesus a bit earlier on. God Never Changes! therefore either you misinterpreted paul's words or he is a false prophet, No one ever can contradict Jesus Who is One with God our Father in heaven. You have to choose who to follow please choose life. You risk nothing following Jesus you risk everything following Paul.


Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, andthat thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Pro 4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

Leaf473 said:

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:14 - New International Reader's Version

The whole law is fulfilled by obeying this one command. “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” (Leviticus 19:18)

www.biblegateway.com

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This is incorrect this is not what is said in the Law. the most important part of it was omitted or forgotten.

Here is what is missing;

Matthew 22:37-40 (NKJV):

37 Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.”
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

May this serves as an example to those who forget Jesus and follow paul to the letter.

Follow the Master and Not the servant;

John 13:16 (NKJV):

"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him."

JesusFollowerForever said:

Bob you know very well Jesus said the law would never pass,

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I do?? Where does it say it would never pass?

JesusFollowerForever said:

Jesus answered a man asking what to do to have eternal life and Jesus enumerated to him the commandments!,

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That was before the New Covenant. Jesus taught the Law to those under the Law.

Gentiles have never been under the Law. Where in the Holy Writ are Gentiles made subject to the Law?

JesusFollowerForever said:

I quoted to you this verse from Jesus a bit earlier on. God Never Changes!

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I dispute that. Read the account in Ex32 where God changed His mind:
9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11 But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’” 14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

JesusFollowerForever said:

therefore either you misinterpreted paul's words or he is a false prophet, No one ever can contradict Jesus Who is One with God our Father in heaven. You have to choose who to follow please choose life. You risk nothing following Jesus you risk everything following Paul.

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Did you read 2Cor3:6-11? What is your take on Paul's writing if you dispute his plain language? How do you interpret Eph 2: 14-15?

JesusFollowerForever said:

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, andthat thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Pro 4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

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Every passage is addressed to the Israelites. The Israelites failed to keep the covenant God gave them and that covenant was an "IF" covenant. see Ex 19:5-6. They failed the Old Covenant and in God's mercy gave mankind a new covenant and the new covenant was ratified by the Blood of Jesus on the Cross. Jesus died that we might live. Why would Jesus put us under a covenant that the Israelites failed to keep?

Bob S said:

I do?? Where does it say it would never pass?

That was before the New Covenant. Jesus taught the Law to those under the Law.

Gentiles have never been under the Law. Where in the Holy Writ are Gentiles made subject to the Law?

I dispute that. Read the account in Ex32 where God changed His mind:
9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11 But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’” 14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Did you read 2Cor3:6-11? What is your take on Paul's writing if you dispute his plain language? How do you interpret Eph 2: 14-15?

Every passage is addressed to the Israelites. The Israelites failed to keep the covenant God gave them and that covenant was an "IF" covenant. see Ex 19:5-6. They failed the Old Covenant and in God's mercy gave mankind a new covenant and the new covenant was ratified by the Blood of Jesus on the Cross. Jesus died that we might live. Why would Jesus put us under a covenant that the Israelites failed to keep?

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I will start with this for now;
Matthew 5:17-18 (KJV): "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Matthew 24:35 (KJV):
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
1 John 2:3-4 (KJV):
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Deuteronomy 5:29 (KJV):
"O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!"
John 14:15 (KJV):
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Romans 7:12 (KJV):
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

I think it is crystal clear that we have to keep the commandments. Do you agree with the scripture above?

JesusFollowerForever said:

This is incorrect this is not what is said in the Law. the most important part of it was omitted or forgotten.

Here is what is missing;

Matthew 22:37-40 (NKJV):

37 Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.”
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

May this serves as an example to those who forget Jesus and follow paul to the letter.

Follow the Master and Not the servant;

John 13:16 (NKJV):

"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him."

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I think both Jesus and Paul are correct. They were answering different situations under different covenants

Half truths will get you followers of paul nowhere.

John 7:37-38: "On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, 'If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"

Bob S said:

You cannot as long as SB continues to believe the writings of Ellen White and uses Ellen's thoughts in debate.

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Yet, I only quote the Bible. God wrote the Ten Commandments and tells us to obey Him Exo 20:6 John 14:15 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 but thats what people do when they do not have a biblical argument, just try to distract. Like as if you know my thoughts, pretty sure only God knows them, and yours too for that matter, nothing we can hide from Him. Ecc 12:13-14

DamianWarS said:

I'm trying to get more clarity as to what you meant by the 10 commandments not being a part of the old covenant (or broadly rejecting the idea). It seems however you are refusing to answer this and are only deflecting which forces me to draw a conclusion that you are unable to defend this position. Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well in terms of your credibility on all your positions. If I can't trust you to defend your own remarks how am I supposed to trust you on larger issues?

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The Ten Commandment's is old and new covenant, its eternal Psa 89:34 Mat 5:19. The new covenant is based on better promises on how we can obey God and not sin since thats what our salvation is from. It’s why the devil attacks God’s law and has deceived millions if not billions that we can disobey God the way He said and live when the scriptures do not teach this.

JesusFollowerForever said:

I will start with this for now;
Matthew 5:17-18 (KJV): "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Matthew 24:35 (KJV):
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
1 John 2:3-4 (KJV):
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Deuteronomy 5:29 (KJV):
"O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!"
John 14:15 (KJV):
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Romans 7:12 (KJV):
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

I think it is crystal clear that we have to keep the commandments. Do you agree with the scripture above?

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You bet I do believe all scripture is inspired. Surely the Law is Holy just and good. The fact is that the Law could only point out sin. It couldn't save anyone. In Jn15:9 Jesus said He kept His Father's Law. Then He goes on to ask us to keep His commands the greatest which is to love others as He loves us.

You rightly quote 1Jn2:3-4 but fail to tell us just what those commandments are. You cherry-picked verses that have no mention of being the Ten Commandments. Just what are the commandments we are to keep? Should we observe the ritual commands found in the old covenant that ended at Calvary? None of the verses you provided tells us of all the commands found in the Holy Writ the ones we are to keep. We do know after reading 2Cor3:6-11 that it is not the Ten Commandments. They were the ministry of death. We also know from those verses that It is the Holy Spirit that replaced the ten. I continue to quote 1Jn3:19-24 which tells us we belong to the truth if we keep Jesus' commandments and actually he names the ones we are to keep. Those verses seem to go right over your head and I understand why. It is because most churches believe they are binding and have them hanging on their walls. It was the Ten Commandments that convinced me to join the SDA church.

As for Matt5:17-18 Jesus was referring to all of the Laws given at Sinai, not just ten. If you believe Jesus didn't bring them to an end then you have to believe not one jot or one tittle has passed from all of the Laws given at Sinai. Are you prepared to grow your sideburns never to cut them? Are you prepared to keep all the feast days like scripture taught?

Jesus in the same sentence explained he came not only to fulfill the L but also the prophets. I take it He was referring to the prophecies concerning His coming. He fulfilled those prophecies, right? Once they were fulfilled they ended. Fulfill means to bring to an end. If it means the prophecies were ended then it also had to mean the Law too was brought to an end.. Jesus fulfilled the Law meaning He brought it to an end. the Jews are no longer under the Law. We are all under the Grace of Jesus Christ. Yes, we have laws, we have the greatest law ever given to mankind, LOVE. If we love our fellow man like Jesus loves us we would never do harm to them in any way. Think about it JFF.

JesusFollowerForever said:

Half truths will get you followers of paul nowhere.

John 7:37-38: "On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, 'If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"

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Are you telling us that you are not a follower of Paul. Your post reeks of that. If you don't believe Jesus picked Paul to spread the
Good News then I guess we will have to end the debate because most of the Good News came from His writings.

SabbathBlessings said:

The Ten Commandment's is old and new covenant, its eternal Psa 89:34 Mat 5:19. The new covenant is based on better promises on how we can obey God and not sin since thats what our salvation is from. It’s why the devil attacks God’s law and has deceived millions if not billions that we can disobey God the way He said and live when the scriptures do not teach this.

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Certainly, no one is suggesting God broke any covenant so the Psa 89:34 passage is out of place. With regard to Mat 5:19 there is no evidence that Jesus is conflating law terminology with the 10 commandments as you are doing. He does quote 2 of the commandments in Mat 5, but he also quotes others outside the 10 so that logical falls apart quickly. We should be looking at the term to mean all of law not just 10 of them.

with your thinking that the 10 commandments are both the old and new covenant how then do you reconcile verses like this:

Heb 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

if the 10 commandments are both old and new, what then was made obsolete? is it your position that the only thing different between the old and new are the "promises". promises might be too ambiguous here, we need to narrow this down more. A promise is implicit a condition as well as a result. We know in the new the promise of circumcision can be fulfilled through spiritual means and not cutting the flesh, we know that the promise of sacrifice is fulfilled through Christ and no longer through the blood of bulls and lambs. We know the promise of laws like do not steal, murder, lie, etc... are fulfilled through loving our neighbour as ourselves, we know that the promise of Sabbath can be accomplished by doing good. So these are an example of better promises, do you have some to share as well?

the goal of the promises are the same, which is a restored relationship with God aka salvation, and it would be silly to dispute this, this has been the promise since light was spoken into darkness from the beginning. Since this goal does not change the conditions must be the thing that changes. We see something similar in the parable of the workers in the vineyard (Mat 20:1-16). In the parable, workers are hired at different times of the day with the promise of a denarius each. The ones hired last had the same wage as the ones hired first despite the fact the hours were different. the promise of payment remained the same for each worker, it was the condition of the promise that changed.

Bob S said:

Are you telling us that you are not a follower of Paul. Your post reeks of that. If you don't believe Jesus picked Paul to spread the
Good News then I guess we will have to end the debate because most of the Good News came from His writings.

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Why would I follow Paul when I can follow Jesus?

John 10:27,

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

DamianWarS said:

Certainly, no one is suggesting God broke any covenant so the Psa 89:34 passage is out of place.

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Please read Psa 89:34, its not just about God not breaking His covenant- thats only the first part.

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

What are the words of the covenant that God will not alter

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Why it continues to be a sin to break even the least of them in the New Covenant breaking one we break them all James 2:10-12

with your thinking that the 10 commandments are both the old and new covenant how then do you reconcile verses like this: Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

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I still do not think you understand what the New Covenant is established on. Heb 8:6 You keep focusing on the law, but God said the New Covenant was established on better promises- it still has God’s law with Him writing in our hearts and minds, from tables of stone to tablets on the heart. Its the Old Covenant promises that are obsolete, the New Covenant has much better promises. Sadly many people don’t think the new promises are enough and won’t be satisfied until the Ten Commandments are gone, but thats mans will, not God its something the apostles touched on during the last days of earth, men would love self over God. God wrote His will for man with His own finger Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 Psa 40:8 and placed them in our hearts Heb 8:10 Jesus never taught to break them, said not to break the least of these commandments, but are to be kept by faith and love following His example Who kept them.

JesusFollowerForever said:

Why would I follow Paul when I can follow Jesus?

John 10:27,

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

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Why then did Jesus even make Paul an apostle? Why do you refuse to answer my questions If we don't need the writings of Paul why are they part of the Holy Writ? I believe you have yourself backed into a corner. You are seeing the real truth but refuse to accept it.

Do you really follow Jesus? Jesus was a keeper of the Torah. The Torah consists of over 600 commands. Are you Kosher? Have you sold all you have and given it to the poor?

Bob S said:

Why then did Jesus even make Paul an apostle? Why do you refuse to answer my questions If we don't need the writings of Paul why are they part of the Holy Writ? I believe you have yourself backed into a corner. You are seeing the real truth but refuse to accept it.

Do you really follow Jesus? Jesus was a keeper of the Torah. The Torah consists of over 600 commands. Are you Kosher? Have you sold all you have and given it to the poor?

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We do not need paul, Jesus did all and instructed the true believers on what to do. Paul is confusing many people Unfortunately.

if we removed all writings from the 12 disciples, you would know not much about Jesus If at all.
On the other hand, if you remove paul's epistles, you loose nothing but gain clarity.

prove me wrong.