Denying Calvinism...

[Shempster]

Umm....do you mean with the North American State where their police are running around in military vehicles shooting unarmed civilians and where their secular President has effectively turned a blind eye; or with how that same State has created numerous wars in more recent years which have gone absolutely belly-up? In that case no, I am referring to the Russian Federation where it's apparent Christian President has resisted the temptation to bomb the living daylights out of any nation who disagrees with its foreign policies.

Having said this, as many Christians (and non-Christians) here in Australia are a bit bewildered by the endemic violence found both within the shores of the US and with their amazingly naive foreign policies; I actually find myself going on the defensive toward US developments where hopefully I have been able to adequately explain the complex social, political and cultural complications that are in play - I really do enjoy visiting the US and plan to do so again in a couple of years.

With regard to the Russian Federation, even though they are undoubtedly the more stabling influence with world affairs, I would not be surprised to see them in a decade or two going the other way as a result of the unreasonable pressure that the US is currently putting on them.

Very insightful post, there

For the record, there is a decent portion of the US population that does not agree with the violent acts of our leaders in recent years.

 

[SarahsKnight]

The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches it alongside election in Chapter III, Articles iii and vii:
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death (iii).

being advertised as "being lifted off the pages of scripture"! Incredible balloney.

Indeed.

 

[Razare]

Calvinism vs. Arminianism is irrelevant.

With calvinism, if you don't continue on as a Christian, you were probably never saved to begin with according to their doctrine.

With Armenianism, you were saved but then lost it.

And I would say with Arminianism, it really stinks because getting saved twice is impossible. This is why I would lean toward Calvanism, but it is only really a consideration for those not saved and for their ability to repent.

Christians shouldn't go around with these doctrines concerning other Christians. It's a mentality of, "How much can I rebel against God and not lose salvation?" Calvinism will make you behave stupid, and Arminianism will make you afraid.

Why even think that way? The truth is we can rebel against God a great deal so long as we don't lose our faith. But thinking along the lines of these two doctrines wont help you, if you are saved.

Salvation by faith that Paul preaches is totally separate from the doctrines of calvanism and armenianism.

We get saved, then we live as Christians by faith. Neither doctrine creates an exception for this.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jill: Hi Herman and Calvin!

{Katie and Jill come walking over}


Katie: Hey Calvin, a couple of quick questions, ok?

Calvin: Sure Katie, quick is Calvin is all about.

Jill: Calvin, come on let's be real, you just told poor Herman to buy and read an entire book to find out what the word 'all' means in that song "Jesus Loves the Little Children. That is not quick by anyone's standard's, but yours Calvin. lol, but not really lol because your advice was not correct at all, {sigh}

Calvin: Why do you say that Jill?

Jill: Because Calvin, God knows all and when God says 'all' because God already knows all, God means 'all.

Katie: I agree with you Jill. Herman, don't bother buying the book, God's word is true and concise. If God says all, God means all.

Calvin: Herman still go buy the book. I"m always right, I know it because I'm 'all' ways right.

Katie: Sure Calvin, what ev' er.

Jill: See ya Calvin, you do make me lol, though

Herman: Hey Katie and Jill, can I hang out with you and learn more about God's Word?

I didn't want to spend the next three days reading anyway. I'd rather read the Bible than some other book by a man, who is a sinner just like me. Why did I believe Calvin in the first place?

Praise God that you two girls came and reminded me that God always has a Perfect Plan for His children! Tell me more!

{Calvin is sad that his friends don't agree with him.It's rough being Calvin today. }

{Katie, Jill and Herman are off to enjoy a picnic and read God's Word. They happily skip down the street to make lunch and begin their afternoon of fellowship. It's great being one of Christ's kids.}

 

[jiminpa]

All the children of the world…
Red and yellow, black and white…
They are precious in His sight…
Jesus loves the little children of the world”

Herman: Well, that song was quite obviously written by an Arminian

Calvin: Why do you say that?

Herman: Well, the song says that Jesus loves “all” the little children of the “world”.[bless and do not curse]
That is what Arminians believe, that Christ died for all and loves the world in such a way that He truly desires all to believe in Christ and be saved.

Calvin: Oh, well you have just misunderstood the context of the song.

Herman: What do you mean?

Calvin: Well, the context plainly demonstrates that “all” doesn’t mean “every child without exception.”

Herman: It doesn’t?

Calvin: Of course not. Look at that one line that says, “Red and yellow, black and white”.

Herman: O.K.

Calvin: Well, it seems obvious to me that when he says “all the children of the world” he only means all the different colors of children in the world. You see, he is really concerned about racism and guarding against the false teaching that Jesus might only love red children and not any black children, etc.

Herman: Is that right? I never realized that?

Calvin: Well, most people don’t, but that is just because they pay no attention to context. That is why God gave us Reformed theologians to explain these things to us. I could give you a good book by a Calvinist where he spends about twenty pages explaining why “all the children of the world“ really means “only a relatively few children from among all the various races of the world”.

Herman: Wow, it is amazing to me that I never realized that before. I think I would like to read that book. Thank God he didn’t leave us on our own to interpret songs like this one or we might come to some really bizarre conclusions. I don’t know what we would ever do without those Reformed theologians you mentioned. I think from now on I will just read from them so I don’t misunderstand something else as I am obviously easily confused.

Calvin: Absolutely. Just make sure you don’t put their writings above what the songs actually say while understanding that it is impossible to rightly understand what the songs actually say and mean without reading from them.

Herman: Uh, sure. That makes sense. I think. Are you suggesting that they might be wrong about this song after all?

Calvin: Of course not. They are right because that is what the verse plainly means when considered in context and you can be sure that the song plainly means that because the Reformed theologians say so. Got it?

Herman: Yeah, I got it. Well, I’m off to buy some of those books you recommended. Thanks for all your help. Imagine, if I had never talked to you I would have just gone right on foolishly believing that the song was saying that Jesus actually loved “all” the children of the “world”.

Calvin No problem. That’s what I’m here for.

Wow, that is the most accurate description of reformed theology I have ever read.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Look, Jesus longed to gather them as little chicks, but they would not come!

Isn't this a contradiction by Jesus ?

Jesus longs to do something, but His wish goes unfulfilled ?

Jesus desires (as in God desires ALL to be saved) to gather, but He cannot ?

Jesus cannot gather, His desires are not met, and He looks puny and powerless ?



Really ?

Notice where you place the bold emphasis...THEY

 

[bottomofsandal]

So what causes you to differ from the unbeliever who receives the same "leading" of the Spirit and does not come to the Lord?

Paul said God makes us to differ.

Just as God placed us in The Body as it pleased Him.

Just as God gives gifts to men as it pleases Him.


God. God. God...not man, man, man

 

[bottomofsandal]

Since God is not willing that any should perish, why would He predestine some to perish before they were born? Does he contradict Himself?

Again, are we to think, he puts them in jail, throws out the key, then wishes they would come as little chicks?

Cluck..cluck..

God is not willing, yet it still happens nonetheless ?

What else does God will to happen that He is unable and powerless to perform ?

Please cite Biblical references in context for our review. Is there many ?

 

[jiminpa]

Isn't this a contradiction by Jesus ?

Jesus longs to do something, but His wish goes unfulfilled ?

Jesus desires (as in God desires ALL to be saved) to gather, but He cannot ?

Jesus cannot gather, His desires are not met, and He looks puny and powerless ?



Really ?

Notice where you place the bold emphasis...THEY

The Bible plainly says that God wants us all in eternal fellowship with Him, but He gives us a choice. Jesus has done more than something He has done everything, and it is up to us to take what He has done. But reformed theology knows better than what the Bible actually says. No! I'll take God's word over calvin's, or luther's or any of those other wrong, dead guys. It's funny how the reformed theology people love the word "context" but hate it when it's actually applied.

 

[bottomofsandal]

The Bible plainly says that God wants us all in eternal fellowship with Him, but He gives us a choice, Jesus has done more than something He has done everything, and it is up to us to take what He has done. But reformed theology knows better than what the Bible actually says. No! I'll take God's word over calvin's, or luther's or any of those other wrong, dead guys. It's funny how the reformed theology people love the word "context" but hate it when it's actually applied.

But aren't we poor choosers ?

What makes us choose wisely ?

What enables one man to choose Christ and another to not choose ?

IOW, we need to explain what made some of us better choosers-

 

[jiminpa]

God is not willing, yet it still happens nonetheless ?

What else does God will to happen that He is unable and powerless to perform ?

Please cite Biblical references in context for our review. Is there many ?

You cite the very verse that absolutely refutes your own argument, and then you try to refute the scriptures, and demand us to prove you wrong, when you have already done so.
.
The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, so God is not willing that any should perish. Yet He allows so many to perish. So is the Bible wrong? According to calvin it is. So let's look at that word that reformationists love to throw around without actually applying, "context." From Genesis to Revelation the context of the Bible is man's disobedience and God's redemption. That is the context. John opens his Gospell account with this. The Light came but man loved darkness. So is God's will thwarted? not according to the Bible, because the whole Bible is about God making a way and allowing us to follow or not. That is God's will, a willing, spotless bride, prepared from the beginning of creation. So we can continue to blame God that He hasn't predestined us to spotlessness, or we can place the blame squarely where it belongs, on ourselves, and listen to His call and become the spotless Bride He calls us to be.

You want citations, okay. The entire Bible, in complete context. That's my citation. Anything else is quoting out of context.

 

[jiminpa]

But aren't we poor choosers ?

What makes us choose wisely ?

What enables one man to choose Christ and another to not choose ?

IOW, we need to explain what made some of us better choosers-

Since the Bible doesn't say what makes some choose better, I guess I don't know. I am okay with realizing that I don't have God's infinite understanding. I'm also okay with realizing that either did the reformers. I am not okay with people who didn't understand claiming to be more authorative than the Bible. No matter how much theyve claimed it, calvin, luther, macarthur, bill nye and anyone else are not smarter than God.

See, I just read my Bible and do my best to agree with it. Yes, I know reformed theology has a better idea than that, but I don't think it's a better idea. I think God knows more than the human philoshy of the reformation, and so in the all of the many places that reformed theology opposes the Bible, I believe the Bible to be right.

 

[jiminpa]

The Bible says to trust God and not to even lean on our own understanding. The reformation says to trust man and give full weight to the reformers' very limited understanding. No thanks.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Since the Bible doesn't say what makes some choose better, I guess I don't know. I am okay with realizing that I don't have God's infinite understanding. I'm also okay with realizing that either did the reformers. I am not okay with people who didn't understand claiming to be more authorative than the Bible. No matter how much theyve claimed it, calvin, luther, macarthur, bill nye and anyone else are not smarter than God.

See, I just read my Bible and do my best to agree with it. Yes, I know reformed theology has a better idea than that, but I don't think it's a better idea. I think God knows more than the human philoshy of the reformation, and so in the all of the many places that reformed theology opposes the Bible, I believe the Bible to be right.

I am non-denominational, not Reformed.

I will praise God for His mercy and grace.


I simply cannot take credit for a decision that I was unable or unwilling to make.

When people speak more of what they did, then what God did, something is unbalanced.



As someone said, Spugeon is a great example of non-Calvinist preaching. This is why Spurgeon says the gospel IS Calvinism. Spurgeon blends the 2 beliefs harmoniously. If anyone will take the time to read commentaries or sermons by Spurgeon, they would see first-hand he is not your typical Calvinist.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am non-denominational, not Reformed.

I will praise God for His mercy and grace.


I simply cannot take credit for a decision that I was unable or unwilling to make.

By your own admission then you must not be saved, because when a person is becoming saved, it is the person who is coming to God and admitting that they need a Savior (the shed blood of Christ to pay their sin debt in full).

So if you are unable or unwilling than you have not come to Him. One must come to Him.

 

[jiminpa]

I am non-denominational, not Reformed.

I will praise God for His mercy and grace.


I simply cannot take credit for a decision that I was unable or unwilling to make.

When people speak more of what they did, then what God did, something is unbalanced.



As someone said, Spugeon is a great example of non-Calvinist preaching. This is why Spurgeon says the gospel IS Calvinism. Spurgeon blends the 2 beliefs harmoniously. If anyone will take the time to read commentaries or sermons by Spurgeon, they would see first-hand he is not your typical Calvinist.

So you go to a church that either doesn't subscribe to your philosophy or is too ashamed of its own philosophy to acknowledge it. Okay. I used to attend one of those churches. I left when I realized I was starving spiritually. A little leaven works through the whole batch. A little argeement with calvin above the Bible will work its way through one's entire philosophy, and sooner or later one will have a hard time believing God in anything. But that is the choice you are free to make according to the Bible, or you can blame God for your own philosophy if you so choose. It is much easier to blame God of course, than to take responsibility for our own failures. The interesting thing about the way the Bible describes grace, though, is that Biblical grace is God giving us the ability to grow in Him if we are only willing to do acknowledge our need and let Him work. But then, calvinism has had to redifine "grace" to mean something opposed to the Bible's grace. There's a lot of that in reformed philosophy. I no longer call reformed belief a theology, because I am increasingly convinced that its end leads further and further away from God, as evidenced by it's leading contemporary voice denouncing the Holy Spirit's deity and his live audience recording studio not emptying out at that pronouncement.

 

[bottomofsandal]

By your own admission then you must not be saved, because when a person is becoming saved, it is the person who is coming to God and admitting that they need a Savior (the shed blood of Christ to pay their sin debt in full).

So if you are unable or unwilling than you have not come to Him. One must come to Him.

I know you are not questioning my salvation, at least I hope not !


The carnal man is at enmity with God, the old man hates God and will not come to God.

Not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit !

Where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is power !


Unsaved people cannot and will not come to Christ because they are unwilling and unable.

Why then have they not come ? What is preventing them coming to Christ for salvation ?

If it is a matter of persuasion, that should be easy...but it failed with King Agrippa !


Let's duplicate what got your saved, lets just help people make a choice for God !

The Bible says God calls us out of the darkness into His marvelous Light.

The Bible says men are blinded and captive by the god of this age.


If men have strength, power, ability, etc... Then why do they not choose God ?

Again, what makes one man to differ from another man ?

 

[jiminpa]

By definition, grace does not abandon us to our own strength. God is always gracious, and just. They are among His defining characteristics. It would not be just or gracious to condemn someone for not accepting grace that was never offered. The god, (yes small "g") of calvinism is neither just or gracious. That god is unloving and cruel, punishing all manking, for the shortcomings and cruelties of the god doing the punishing. That does sound like a spirit, but not God's Spirit.

 

[bottomofsandal]

So you go to a church that either doesn't subscribe to your philosophy or is too ashamed of its own philosophy to acknowledge it. Okay. I used to attend one of those churches. I left when I realized I was starving spiritually. A little leaven works through the whole batch. A little argeement with calvin above the Bible will work its way through one's entire philosophy, and sooner or later one will have a hard time believing God in anything. But that is the choice you are free to make according to the Bible, or you can blame God for your own philosophy if you so choose. It is much easier to blame God of course, than to take responsibility for our own failures. The interesting thing about the way the Bible describes grace, though, is that Biblical grace is God giving us the ability to grow in Him if we are only willing to do acknowledge our need and let Him work. But then, calvinism has had to redifine "grace" to mean something opposed to the Bible's grace. There's a lot of that in reformed philosophy. I no longer call reformed belief a theology, because I am increasingly convinced that its end leads further and further away from God, as evidenced by it's leading contemporary voice denouncing the Holy Spirit's deity and his live audience recording studio not emptying out at that pronouncement.

I really have no idea what you are barking at me about.

Read my last post to get a clue how I see The Holy Spirit.

I get it. You are firmly against some form of Calvinism I know nothing about.

Please leave me out of your non-edifying, baseless rants !

 

[jiminpa]

I know you are not questioning my salvation, at least I hope not !


The carnal man is at enmity with God, the old man hates God and will not come to God.

Not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit !

Where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is power !


Unsaved people cannot and will not come to Christ because they are unwilling and unable.

Why then have they not come ? What is preventing them coming to Christ for salvation ?

If it is a matter of persuasion, that should be easy...but it failed with King Agrippa !


Let's duplicate what got your saved, lets just help people make a choice for God !

The Bible says God calls us out of the darkness into His marvelous Light.

The Bible says men are blinded and captive by the god of this age.


If men have strength, power, ability, etc... Then why do they not choose God ?

Again, what makes one man to differ from another man ?

I am officially not questioning your salvation. That is for you to examine, but then according to your philosphy, it's not. If God doesn't love you enough to save you, no amount of examination, or belief, or begging or pleading, will be effective. Even you can't question or really know if you are saved or not. Good luck with that.