Denominations are bad mmmmkay?

Rick Otto

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From a strictly organizational standpoint, that might be so. But what is the opposite side of that coin? It's to have congregations in which the leaders are untrained, untested, and unqualified. Often, the kind of church that's described is a "family church," which is to say a small congregation with no outside supervision in which a few members, usually related by blood or marriage, are allowed to run everything as though they own it. Often, they did found the congregation, so that's not surprising.

To me, that's worse than jumping from the frying pan into the fire. It's an argument for substituting a glorified Bible study group for the historic church.
Yet we cannot deny glorification of the historic church happens, and the consequences of that.
 
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Wordkeeper

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From a strictly organizational standpoint, that might be so. But what is the opposite side of that coin? It's to have congregations in which the leaders are untrained, untested, and unqualified. Often, the kind of church that's described is a "family church," which is to say a small congregation with no outside supervision in which a few members, usually related by blood or marriage, are allowed to run everything as though they own it. Often, they did found the congregation, so that's not surprising.

To me, that's worse than jumping from the frying pan into the fire. It's an argument for substituting a glorified Bible study group for the historic church.

I suppose what I'm trying to convey is that it really doesn't matter what means are employed, the end results should be satisfactory: disciples should arise.


This is what makes the organic church able to bear fruit, grow disciples:


1 No pressure from leadership: truth is best sought after with no biased authority figures breathing down your neck.

2 It is God who preaches/teaches, believers are given stewardship of revelations.

3 it is God who makes course corrections: every prophecy will be tested. Is God's word not like fire, a hammer that shatters rocks?

Saying speakers are untrained, unqualified, untested is ignoring the examples of the apostles, who surprised the Pharisees with their knowledge, surprising because it came from uneducated tradesmen. Ironically, they recognized that associating with Jesus had brought about the change, ironical because Jesus was a carpenter, some one looked down upon in his own village!

I'm saying that these are promises, that the last days would be as Jeremiah prophesied, young men would have visions, ordinary folk would prophesy. The Holy Spirit would lead believers into all truth. If you deny this, you are reducing all that verbiage to nonsensical.

I know that if we all claim to be led by the Spirit, what does one do with the fact of the different denominations that this inspiration gave birth to?

The problem isn't too many teachers, quite the opposite. The problem was that all these denominations were person centred.

What the organic church proposed was the free and open discussion of doctrine until a coherent body of works, interpretation of the entire text, was arrived at in the small pool of believers.

Views that informed them of what God desired, the different roles of believers, the qualifiers, the yardstick by which the selection took place, not as the world ranked, but how many who were first would be last.


Initially organic churches were DIS organised chaos. Meetings would end in disarray and darkness.

The reasons were:

No one knew how to decide what the right view was.

No one knew how to study Scripture.

These are big topics, but the end result is that they finally found out how to solve these problems.

How different from mainstream churches, which have no procedure for course correction.

1 The pastor's job is to toe the party line, teach only the denominational view.

2 The congregation had to listen quietly to the teaching, without questioning.

3 Incoherent views were categorised as mystery, paradox.

The worst part is the teachings, some hard, radical, non intuitive, are rationalised away, skipped over quickly, or plain avoided.

No wonder there are no disciples grown, produced. At least the Israelites drank from the Rock and disobeyed. In most churches, decision forks aren't even presented. No Rock, no drinking...The question of becoming disciples doesn't even arise.





From a strictly organizational standpoint, that might be so. But what is the opposite side of that coin? It's to have congregations in which the leaders are untrained, untested, and unqualified. Often, the kind of church that's described is a "family church," which is to say a small congregation with no outside supervision in which a few members, usually related by blood or marriage, are allowed to run everything as though they own it. Often, they did found the congregation, so that's not surprising.

To me, that's worse than jumping from the frying pan into the fire. It's an argument for substituting a glorified Bible study group for the historic church.
 
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Tangible

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I wasn't clear. There was a case of a Calvinist church which sent a candidate to a Calvinist seminary. He was taught the original languages and hermeneutics and shown how Calvinist doctrine was arrived at, formed. Unfortunately, he found more support for Arminian conclusions than Calvinist (go figure!) and landed in a not uncommon quandary. What was he to do? More often than not, most seminarians in the situation remain in the denomination because it was the Christian(!) thing to do, if you get my meaning

And as I mentioned, some even found evidence for not continuing in Christianity.

Unlike Ehrman, they continued to work as pastors.

So do we obey compromised teaching?

The point is that mainline denominations are structured such that there is no room for reformation, semper reformanda notwithstanding, a fact noted and bemoaned by Wright.
Well, as a Lutheran, I believe that both Calvinism and Arminianism are incorrect. And if you read my earlier response, I think there's more of a chance of a teacher going off the rails with no denominational accountability than from within an admittedly imperfect denomination.

It's easier for a more flexible format, like a non pastor led church, to reach the views that the first century church held, without fear of rebuke from the leadership than with the present model.
No one knows for certain enough about the views the first century held, and even if they were somehow discovered, attempting to exercise them within a 21st Century American context would necessitate immediate changes anyway.

Ecclesiastical repristination is a fool's errand. History happens.
 
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Open Heart

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Does any denomination have doctrine that has stayed the same through time?
I must insist that Catholic dogma is not manmade. Although our lesser doctrines, traditions, and disciplines have changed over the years, our DOGMAS have always remained the same.
 
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Tangible

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I must insist that Catholic dogma is not manmade. Although our lesser doctrines, traditions, and disciplines have changed over the years, our DOGMAS have always remained the same.
Easily falsifiable: The assumption of Mary.
 
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Open Heart

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Easily falsifiable: The assumption of Mary.
The doctrine of the assumption goes back to the early church. It was declared infallible dogma precisely because Catholics had always believed it.
 
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Tangible

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The doctrine of the assumption goes back to the early church. It was declared infallible dogma precisely because Catholics had always believed it.
That's incorrect, but I'm too tired to argue the point right now. :sleep:
 
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FireDragon76

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Ecclesiastical repristination is a fool's errand. History happens.

It's a decidedly western phenomenon too.

Look at the Old Believers in Russia- sects and churches that broke away from state Russian Orthodoxy after the heavy-handed Nikonian "reforms" of the 17th century. After their schism, they continued the practices the best they could, even though in many cases they had no priesthood and no sacraments except baptism. They did not step back into time to try to re-create an early Church. Because maybe they knew something we don't: it's not something humans can do, only God can do that, and we can't force God's hand.

Only moderns in the West have that kind of hubris to allow that: with a Bible and some good intentions you can have your own Pentecost. It's no coincidence that most Restorationist groups downplayed the effects of ancestral or original sin. Which is why these groups quickly fractured and splintered, each one assuming with just one more tweak in the magic formula, somehow God would be forced to show up.

I think it really is down to a "theology of glory". Somehow we think our religion should be better, more purer, than this world, and escape the effects of our sinfulness. But Christ himself was crucified, so why should we think the Body of Christ be any different?
 
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Gnarwhal

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I think there's more of a chance of a teacher going off the rails with no denominational accountability than from within an admittedly imperfect denomination.

That's the whole enchilada right there, in my opinion. It's not a matter of if, but when.
 
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JonahRR

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I'll just leave this right here...

http://bible.com/59/gal.5.16-26.ESV

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I must insist that Catholic dogma is not manmade. Although our lesser doctrines, traditions, and disciplines have changed over the years, our DOGMAS have always remained the same.

That is really a peculiar statement to make. For example, the Four Marian Dogmas were developed in your denomination over time and finally declared to be dogmatic statements in the twentieth century. No other Christian body shares those dogmas and you yourself did not have them for almost two millenia.
 
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Open Heart

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That is really a peculiar statement to make. For example, the Four Marian Dogmas were developed in your denomination over time and finally declared to be dogmatic statements in the twentieth century. No other Christian body shares those dogmas and you yourself did not have them for almost two millenia.
To say they developed is not the same as saying they have not existed. They have always existed but in less mature forms, like a tree that has grown over time.
 
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bbbbbbb

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To say they developed is not the same as saying they have not existed. They have always existed but in less mature forms, like a tree that has grown over time.

All heresies have always existed and they have developed over time. They have not always been recognized as heresies, however, so therein lies the problem. If, for example, the Bible states (as it does) that Jesus had brothers and sisters (and even gives the names of the brothers) we can "develop" those statements in a number of interesting, and sometimes peculiar, ways. For example, we can say that they were not physical brothers and sisters, but were spiritual brothers and sisters only. Or, we could say that they were actually cousins, even though the Greek word for cousins is not used. Or we could say that they were elder brothers and sisters of Jesus who came on the scene before He did.
 
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Aijalon

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This "led by the spirit" thing is quite true, but misguided. The Holy Spirit isn't the matrix where He just downloads all things Christian into the head of a new believer at conversion. Church elders and mentors help guide a new Christian to understand their new place in the universe.
I just want to point out that the Holy Spirit actually IS quite like The Matrix, and DOES download all things to the believer (maybe not all at once). And, NO, discipleship is not mentoring.

Jesus did NOT say go "make" (verb) "disciples" (noun). He actually said "Go be-disciplers (verb) of the nations". It is sad, but the Great Commission has been boiled down to the coined phrase of "make followers" and in so doing mentor-leaders make little copies of themselves, and even have a tendency to think that without their guidance, the Holy Spirit cannot be understood by the "disciple".
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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I just want to point out that the Holy Spirit actually IS quite like The Matrix, and DOES download all things to the believer (maybe not all at once). And, NO, discipleship is not mentoring.

Jesus did NOT say go "make" (verb) "disciples" (noun). He actually said "Go be-disciplers (verb) of the nations". It is sad, but the Great Commission has been boiled down to the coined phrase of "make followers" and in so doing mentor-leaders make little copies of themselves, and even have a tendency to think that without their guidance, the Holy Spirit cannot be understood by the "disciple".

You mentor them to become disciples. I have no issues in learning from fellow brothers who are strong in the Holy Spirit and have experience in being a Christian a lot longer than I a proverbial new christian. Christianity is a community. Always has been, and always will be. It is silly to think you and the Holy Spirit are an island all unto yourselves. That is more western individualism and is not Christianity.

What do you think "be-disciplers" even means? Because it sure as heck doesn't mean that.
 
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Rick Otto

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You mentor them to become disciples. I have no issues in learning from fellow brothers who are strong in the Holy Spirit and have experience in being a Christian a lot longer than I a proverbial new christian. Christianity is a community. Always has been, and always will be. It is silly to think you and the Holy Spirit are an island all unto yourselves. That is more western individualism and is not Christianity.

What do you think "be-disciplers" even means? Because it sure as heck doesn't mean that.


The community is in schism.
It is silly to think islands don't form community or that we are ismuthes or states, or cities or neighborhoods as well, then.
I have no issues with learning from others, either.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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The community is in schism.
It is silly to think islands don't form community or that we are ismuthes or states, or cities or neighborhoods as well, then.
I have no issues with learning from others, either.

it is only a problem when the island think it is the only one that should float. ;)
 
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To say they developed is not the same as saying they have not existed. They have always existed but in less mature forms, like a tree that has grown over time.
When the teachings in question are developed into something different, that's not just growing over time. If it were, Protestantism would actually be Catholicism (but they'd need a different name, like "Mature Catholicism"). ;)
 
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When the teachings in question are developed into something different, that's not just growing over time. If it were, Protestantism would actually be Catholicism (but they'd need a different name, like "Mature Catholicism"). ;)
I like that! The Mature Catholic Church - Missouri Synod. That has a good ring to it!
 
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