Denial of the Trinity doctrine

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by agnostic front
I've always questioned why the Biblical God just didn't simply make things much clearer in the Bible, if indeed this God exists and "wrote" the Bible? The Bible God's own followers argue endlessly about many subjects related to their religion and they have for over 2000 years. Why? Because as it has already been pointed out the Bible itself can be interpreted in various ways. I marvel at the human time and energy and money spent by Christians and members of other religions based on the Bible arguing who's right. It seems that if the Bible God, which Jesus represented, was really interested in us building a just world, he would've made the Bible much clearer, which would've allowed us to spend our time, energy, and money on more important things than arguing about "His Word".

The overwhelming majority of people who read the original languages do not have that problem. The conflict largely comes from people trying to prove their interpretation from various translations of the Bible. A good example of this is on this forum. One person, when anything contradicts what his, very small, ethnic, "church" teaches, it is "mistranslated". Although this person has refused to "correctly" translate anything in the original languages I have posted.

 

[Hank]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Go ahead Hank, give it your best shot. I have challenged several people on this forum to document from ancient scrolls, codices, clay/stone tablets, etc. any Trinity, i.e. three gods manifesting as one, in any pagan religion which could conceivably have influenced early Christianity. By trinity I do not mean the usual arbitrary grouping of three deities.

To begin with I see the trinity as a grouping of arbitrary deities. What you believe is not what I do. What you see as truth I do not accept as such. Thus I give the link from the JW only without my comments.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Get on with it. Show me those historical facts. I have read JW literature all of it misquotes, quotes out of context, and invents quotes to support their blasphemous views. And Oh BTW do you read and understand Hebrew? I do!

The last time I did that it turned out people claiming that I am bashing Catholics.
I do not accept historical facts by JW myself. Historical facts would come would come from 'neutral' but credible sources. But I want the moderators give me specific limits to how far I can post such this time. I don't want to be banned again! This is not a cop-out (spell). I can give you private links until I get a ruling.

Hebrew - I have Jewish friends and know two secular Hebrew scholars. I myself am not fluent in Hebrew but can get things translated within a couple of days.

Originally posted by OldShepherd The only place a Trinity can be found is in pre-Christian Judaism. See 1910, Jewish Encyclopedia, below.  and so on ...

That I did not know myself I learn every day.

 

[Gunny]

Cult: A Theological Definition


Definition of a Christian Cult

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Gunny! Welcome home soldier. Good questions all. Let's look at them:

So we are to believe anything we want regarding who Jesus is?

People will do this anyhow Gunny. What you believe and what I believe don't matter much. One has to understand what the narrow gate is; what 'the kingdom of God is within you' means; what 'one must be born again into the spirit' means. It's all about interpretation, so what I'm saying is take the words, the lessons, the deeds of Jesus and apply them to your own life. Walk the walk. don't judge others for what they believe, just do what Jesus taught you to do to the best of your abilities.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit is nebulous. God as described in the Bible is never nebulous. When Jesus was about to go to the Father's right hand he said the Comforter would come, sent by the Father. The Comforter is not nebulous.

Well, often God is nebulous, for what is spirit? We cannot see it or hear it, yet we see God manifested all around us, or at least I do. All we have of the Holy Spirit is some 'dove like' apparition. All I'm saying Gunny is God is already spirit, an all pervading spirit (IMHO), and the Holy Spirit is simply God working within and through us and all around us. By nebulous I'm saying it can't really be defined.

I believe that in this modern culture man has forgotten the true wonderous, powerful and Holy nature of God.

I agree, even if we see God differently.

God's Word describes clearly who Jesus is and the nature of the Triune Godhead.

I know you believe this Gunny, and I truly respect your beliefs. But it's still a debatable point for many, in and out of Christianity. I'm just saying that I don't see where belief in the Trinity matters for either salvation or the narrow gate life. Jesus mentioned he was sending a Comforter, but didn't put any conditions on what this Comforter is or will do in regards to one's salvation.

If the indwelling Holy Spirit is one's teacher God's nature will be revealed by the partaking of God's Word.

By indwelling do you mean the HS lives within us? If so, I agree. Can one 'find' God through reading the Bible? Again, I agree. I don't agree though, that it is the ONLY way. God's 'nature' is revealed to us every day, in many many ways.

Have a wonderful journey Gunny.

 

[Gunny]

Alpha and Omega


The Trinity: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit


Is the Creedal Doctrine of Trinity Biblical


A brief declaration and vindication of the Trinity

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Gunny, was that a response? What do YOU think? That's what I'm interested in.

I have no problem with the Trinity, as we humans are soul, mind and body, so why not God. What I don't buy is the necessity of the Trinity for believing in Jesus, or for salvation or anthing else. It's just a non-issue.

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
Gunny, was that a response? What do YOU think? That's what I'm interested in.

Yes, I am in agreement with the Trnity Doctrine and I believe it is supported by the Bible/Scripture.

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
Gunny, was that a response? What do YOU think? That's what I'm interested in.

Yes, I am in agreement with the Trinity Doctrine and I believe it is supported by the Bible/Scripture.

 

[OldShepherd]

Posted by Hank
To begin with I see the trinity as a grouping of arbitrary deities. What you believe is not what I do. What you see as truth I do not accept as such. Thus I give the link from the JW only without my comments.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm

     Quote from the JW site linked to by Hank, above.

Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians."

What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Britannica relates: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, 'of one substance with the Father' . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination."

     Is this true? Constantine and the Nicaean council according to the “real" Encyclopædia Britannica.

”Constantine. The Emperor was an earnest student of his religion. Even before the defeat of Licinius he had summoned to Trier the theologian and polemicist Lactantius, to be the tutor of Crispus. In later years, he commissioned new copies of the Bible for the growing congregations at Constantinople. He composed a special prayer for his troops and went on campaigns with a mobile chapel in a tent. He issued numerous laws relating to Christian practice and susceptibilities: for instance, abolishing the penalty of crucifixion and the practice of branding certain criminals; enjoining the observance of Sunday and saints' days; and extending privileges to the clergy while suppressing at least some offensive pagan practices.

Constantine had hoped to be baptized in the Jordan River, but perhaps because of the lack of opportunity to do so—together possibly with the reflection that his office necessarily involved responsibility for actions hardly compatible with the baptized state—he delayed the ceremony until the end of his life.

(325), the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, meeting in ancient Nicaea (now Iznik, Tur.). It was called by the emperor Constantine I, an unbaptized catechumen, or neophyte, who presided over the opening session and took part in the discussions.”

To cite this page:
"Nicaea, Council of" Encyclopædia Britannica
<http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=57082>
[Accessed October 26, 2002].

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Quote from the JW site linked to by Hank, above.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Is this true? Constantine and the Nicaean council according to the “real" Encyclopædia Britannica.

”Constantine. The Emperor was an earnest student of his religion. Even before the defeat of Licinius he had summoned to Trier the theologian and polemicist Lactantius, to be the tutor of Crispus. In later years, he commissioned new copies of the Bible for the growing congregations at Constantinople. He composed a special prayer for his troops and went on campaigns with a mobile chapel in a tent. He issued numerous laws relating to Christian practice and susceptibilities: for instance, abolishing the penalty of crucifixion and the practice of branding certain criminals; enjoining the observance of Sunday and saints' days; and extending privileges to the clergy while suppressing at least some offensive pagan practices.

Constantine had hoped to be baptized in the Jordan River, but perhaps because of the lack of opportunity to do so—together possibly with the reflection that his office necessarily involved responsibility for actions hardly compatible with the baptized state—he delayed the ceremony until the end of his life.

(325), the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, meeting in ancient Nicaea (now Iznik, Tur.). It was called by the emperor Constantine I, an unbaptized catechumen, or neophyte, who presided over the opening session and took part in the discussions.”

To cite this page:
"Nicaea, Council of" Encyclopædia Britannica
&lt;http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=57082&gt;
[Accessed October 26, 2002].

Emperor Constantine I, an UNBAPTIZED catechumen or neophyte, CALLED for a MEETING of the Christian church at Nicea in 325 AD. This PAGAN emperor PRESIDED over the meeting and took part in the discussion.

This first ecumenical council of the Christian church was CALLED by the PAGAN emperor specifically to AFFIRM the DEITY Jesus.

If the Bible were CLEAR about the DEITY of Jesus, why was there a need for the PAGAN emperor Constantine I to CALL this council to a meeting SOLELY for the purpose of AFFIRMING the DEITY of Jesus?

Ed

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by edpobre

On this basis ALONE, you are the CULT - NOT the Iglesia Ni Cristo!
Ed

Berean Ministries: Cult Profiles

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by gunnysgt
Berean Ministries: Cult Profiles

"My dear friends,

do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.

This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the Spirit who comes from God. But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus does NOT have the Spirit of God. The spirit that he has is the&nbsp;ENEMY of Christ; you heard that it would come, and now it is here in the world already" (1 John 4:1-3 Today's English Version).

Trinitarians DENY that Jesus Christ CAME as a&nbsp; HUMAN being. They TEACH that Jesus Christ CAME as God who BECAME a MAN.

Do Trinitarians have the Spirit of God? The Bible says NO! Those who PERSECUTE the Iglesia Ni Cristo are TRINITARIANS. Should you believe them? The Bible says NO!

Ed



&nbsp;

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by edpobre
"My dear friends,

do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
Like Jesus, Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that he was SENT by God and BACKED UP his belief by prophecies recorded in the Bible like what Jesus did. Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT doctrines from God like what Jesus did.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
because it is in the Philippines where this TRUE "Church of Christ" RE-EMERGED.
As anyone can SEE, these doctrinal statements are NOT mandated by the INC Administration but are MANDATED by God THROUGH the INC Administration.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
Like Jesus, Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that he was SENT by God and BACKED UP his belief by prophecies recorded in the Bible like what Jesus did. Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT doctrines from God like what Jesus did.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
because it is in the Philippines where this TRUE "Church of Christ" RE-EMERGED.
As anyone can SEE, these doctrinal statements are NOT mandated by the INC Administration but are MANDATED by God THROUGH the INC Administration.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is the TRUE church of Christ in these last days.
Thus, ONLY members of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO&nbsp;WILL be saved!



That's TRUE! The work of Christ on the cross is NOT sufficient in of itself for salvation
One must ENTER the FOLD or FLOCK in order to be SAVED. That fold or flock is the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, the TRUE church of Christ in these last days.

The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is the&nbsp;TRUE&nbsp;church of Christ in these last days. It has been GIVEN to them to KNOW The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven THROUGH a MESSENGER commissioned by God THROUGH Bible PROPHECIES.
Ed&nbsp;
&nbsp;

Alpha and Omega


The Trinity: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit


Is the Creedal Doctrine of Trinity Biblical


A brief declaration and vindication of the Trinity


The following links provide information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, it's founder, their doctrine, who they state Jesus is?, what Salvation is according to their man-made doctrinal beliefs, the control they adminster to it's members, their deceptive practices, and the claims of the founder, Felix Manalo and his belief that he is spoken of in scripture as a messenger of God/The 5th angel.

There is a considerable amount of data that has been gathered on Iglesia ni Cristo, much of it from their own publications and former members.

I believe it is well worth the time reading over the information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, indeed.

Examine Iglesia ni Cristi

http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by edpobre
Emperor Constantine I, an UNBAPTIZED catechumen or neophyte, CALLED for a MEETING of the Christian church at Nicea in 325 AD. This PAGAN emperor PRESIDED over the meeting and took part in the discussion.

This first ecumenical council of the Christian church was CALLED by the PAGAN emperor specifically to AFFIRM the DEITY Jesus.

If the Bible were CLEAR about the DEITY of Jesus, why was there a need for the PAGAN emperor Constantine I to CALL this council to a meeting SOLELY for the purpose of AFFIRMING the DEITY of Jesus?Ed

False as usual. Constantine presided at the opening ceremony. AFFIRMING the DEITY of Jesus was necessary because cultists like you, one man and a few of his followers were perverting the Bible, claiming that Jesus was a created being. Out of 318 bishops all but two agreed with the findings of the council. Many of these same bishops had been tortured in the persecution of Christians only a few years before. They faced death rather than denounce their faith and worship Caesar. So we can be sure that the council findings were in line with the teaching of the disciples and the early church.

 

[Hank]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
False as usual. Constantine presided at the opening ceremony. AFFIRMING the DEITY of Jesus was necessary because cultists like you, one man and a few of his followers were perverting the Bible, claiming that Jesus was a created being.

If the Bible is the word of God, how could anyone want to pervert it? Think for once here. If trinity is a clear consequence of the Bible no one could question trinity.

 

[Hank]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
”Constantine. The Emperor was an earnest student of his religion. Even before the defeat of Licinius he had summoned to Trier the theologian and polemicist Lactantius, to be the tutor of Crispus. In later years, he commissioned new copies of the Bible for the growing congregations at Constantinople. He composed a special prayer for his troops and went on campaigns with a mobile chapel in a tent. He issued numerous laws relating to Christian practice and susceptibilities: for instance, abolishing the penalty of crucifixion and the practice of branding certain criminals; enjoining the observance of Sunday and saints' days; and extending privileges to the clergy while suppressing at least some offensive pagan practices.

Constantine had hoped to be baptized in the Jordan River, but perhaps because of the lack of opportunity to do so—together possibly with the reflection that his office necessarily involved responsibility for actions hardly compatible with the baptized state—he delayed the ceremony until the end of his life.

(325), the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, meeting in ancient Nicaea (now Iznik, Tur.). It was called by the emperor Constantine I, an unbaptized catechumen, or neophyte, who presided over the opening session and took part in the discussions.”

To cite this page:
"Nicaea, Council of" Encyclopædia Britannica
&lt;http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=57082&gt;
[Accessed October 26, 2002].

So on one hand the government persecutes Christians Bishops and then turns those into the leaders of the new State Religion. They must have built 320 parishes very quickly. (I know a miracle.) As I said JW are not perfect, care to refute their clear cut logic or are you just lingering on their dirty laundry. - Well dirty laundry works both ways btw.

Some stuff on Constantine.

http://www.janus.umd.edu/Feb2001/Murphy/16.html

not quite the true blue Christians. One might even say a Caesar still...

 

[Job_38]

The Trinity is a basic doctrine of orthodox Christianity. Yet the word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible. Is the doctrine of the Trinity really biblical?

The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is one God who exists eternally as three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I can assure you that the elements of this doctrine are all taken directly from the Bible.

The first plank of the Trinitarian platform is that there is only one God. The Bible could not be more explicit on this point, which it states explicitly about two dozen times. In Isaiah 44:8 God says that even He does not know of any other gods!

Jesus often spoke of God as His Father, and the apostles frequently spoke of "God the Father." But the New Testament also insists that Jesus is God. For example, Thomas acknowledged Jesus as, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), and both Peter and Paul spoke of Jesus as "our God and Savior" (2 Pet. 1:1; [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]. 2:13). Yet the New Testament also makes the distinction between the Father and the Son as two very different persons. In fact they tell us that they love one another, speak to each other, and seek to glorify each other (e.g., John 17: 1-26).

The Old Testament refers often to the Holy Spirit as God at work in the world, without distinction from the Father. But Jesus in John 14 to 16 explained that this Holy Spirit would be sent by the Father at Christ's request. The Holy Spirit would teach and guide the disciples, not speaking on His own initiative, but speaking on Christ's behalf and glorifying Christ. Thus, the Holy Spirit is revealed by Christ to be a third person distinct from the Father and distinct from the Son.

In short, the doctrine of the Trinity is completely and totally biblical, and it is essential that all Christians give assent to this doctrine

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by Hank
If the Bible is the word of God, how could anyone want to pervert it? Think for once here. If trinity is a clear consequence of the Bible no one could question trinity.

This post is nonsense. Why do all Russellites claim that Trinitarians have perverted the Bible? So, "If the Bible is the word of God, how could anyone want to pervert it?"

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by Hank
So on one hand the government persecutes Christians Bishops and then turns those into the leaders of the new State Religion. They must have built 320 parishes very quickly. (I know a miracle.) As I said JW are not perfect, care to refute their clear cut logic or are you just lingering on their dirty laundry. - Well dirty laundry works both ways btw.

Some stuff on Constantine.

http://www.janus.umd.edu/Feb2001/Murphy/16.html

not quite the true blue Christians. One might even say a Caesar still...

Ever hear it said Christians are not perfect, just forgiven? Ever read what Paul said, "I am chief among sinners"?

Let's take a look at your so-called proof. Just for starters where can we find this alleged letter?


One pagan idea that Constantine retained was his opinion of theology, particularly that which dealt with the origin of Christ. (See any proof of this?) In a letter to Arius and Alexander, Constantine asked them to forget their theological differences. In Barnes' words, Constantine "urged Arius and Alexander to act like philosophers."59 According to Barnes (I don't want to know what Barnes said or thought), Constantine also believed that Christians can legitimately agree on certain points while accepting each other in the faith.60 What Constantine did see as important in ensuring the support of God, however, was the actual method of worship.61 This emphasis on ritual rather than theology in religion was an important characteristic of Roman paganism.(But there has not one shred of proof been presented to verify this allegation.)

Other pagan ideas in which Constantine seems to have believed (Do you call this proof?) are the use of divination and magic, which Christians of the day were strongly against. In 321, Constantine outlawed the private use of haruspices (diviners) and magic, although he allowed for the use of haruspices in public ceremonies and spells that were used to heal the sick.62

 

[Future Man]

Good posts Job38 and Old shep .

God bless--Jeremiah