Denial of the Trinity doctrine

[Logicalthinker]

how do you interpret these verses then?

I don't interpret verses. All interpretation belongs to God.

Genesis 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

When men try to interpret the bible they create false doctrine according to their imperfect mind. They don't cross reference to come to an understanding scripturally.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here this scripture says nothing about eternal torment. We know when something burns up it is no more. That would fit with the scripture.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

They payed with death and get no eternal life, they are gone forever.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now this verse does say torment forever. But again man is not allowed to interpret the bible. So we have to look in scripture for clarification. It can not contradict itself. so there has to be a truth somewhere. Now notice in Rev 20:14. Just four lines down there is a little more clarification.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death and hell are destroyed by the lake of fire. They're not sitting in there. God is telling us he is doing away with such things. He is destroying them.

Now with that we have to look back a chapter

Revelations19:20-21 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Notice that the lake of fire is reserved for the beast, false prophet and later the devil (notice in Rev 20:10 the devil is cast in where the beast and false prophet are, they were already in there before Satan). Notice it does not mention humans until 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword. It has to be humans because the birds eat their flesh. Demons and the Devil have no flesh. So the wages of sin is death they were slain.


Any Christian religion that contradicts the bible, is a false religion.


God Bless
LT

 

[Benoni]

So ironic that the 2 of the most important doctrines in the Christian church, one of which is eternal torment, the other which is the trinity doctrine, and neither of those words even appear in the scriptures.

I mean these are apparently make or break doctrines and neither the word "Trinity" or the word "Hell" never even make one appearance in the all the Scriptures.

NOT ONCE!

Oh the lenghts that men will go to to defend rank heresy!

Amen; I am still trying to find two person's, three person's I thought God was a spirit where does it say He is a person.

 

[2ducklow]

I don't interpret verses. All interpretation belongs to God.

Genesis 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

When men try to interpret the bible they create false doctrine according to their imperfect mind. They don't cross reference to come to an understanding scripturally.

you have interpreted gen. 40,8 which says that god gave an interpretation of a dream to mean that god gives interpretations of scripture. dreams are not scripture. No scripture says all interpretations belong to God, that is your interpretation of Gen. 40.8. If one can't give an interpretation of scripture then that would mean we can only quote scripture and never comment on it. which is absurd.

Nehemiah 8:8 And they read in the book, in the law of God, distinctly; and they gave the sense, so that they understood the reading.

isn't giving the sense of scripture interpreting scripture? If not would you be more comfortable if I had asked "what do you see is the sense of these scriptures?" to me it's saying the same thing.

Daniel gave the interpretation to the king.

Daniel 5:17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.

So God revealed the interpretation to daniel and daniel gave it to the King. so God does give interpretations to men. and Men are suppose to give it to other men. God leads all men into the truth, that is giving men the interpretation of scripture, and we are to relate it to other men. Do you honestly believe that everything you believe about the bible is 100 percent accurate? you're absolutely sure about every single minute thing you believe about the b ible? I don't think so.

Here this scripture says nothing about eternal torment. We know when something burns up it is no more. That would fit with the scripture.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

They payed with death and get no eternal life, they are gone forever.

So your belief is that the unsaved get thrown into a lake of fire and burn up and are no more, but satan and his cohorts get tormented forever in the same lake of fire, correct?

Now this verse does say torment forever. But again man is not allowed to interpret the bible. So we have to look in scripture for clarification. It can not contradict itself. so there has to be a truth somewhere. Now notice in Rev 20:14. Just four lines down there is a little more clarification.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death and hell are destroyed by the lake of fire. They're not sitting in there. God is telling us he is doing away with such things. He is destroying them.

Now with that we have to look back a chapter

Revelations19:20-21 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Notice that the lake of fire is reserved for the beast, false prophet and later the devil (notice in Rev 20:10 the devil is cast in where the beast and false prophet are, they were already in there before Satan).

but you just said that humans are cast into the lake of fire and get burnt up or did you mean that they just die and aren't cast into the lake of fire, now you seem to be saying its only for satan and his demons,

Notice it does not mention humans until 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword. It has to be humans because the birds eat their flesh. Demons and the Devil have no flesh. So the wages of sin is death they were slain.

aren't these humans mentioned in these verses?

Revelation 20:5-6 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

what power does the second death have over the dead who miss the first resurrection?

isn't the second death the lake of fire according to this scripture?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Since the second death has power over the dead who miss the first resurrection, and the second death is the lake of Fire, how do you get that the second death is only for satan and his demons?

Any Christian religion that contradicts the bible, is a false religion.


God Bless
LT

So if they have some doctrine that unbeknownst to them contradicts some scripture, then it doesn't matter if they are b orn again, know God the Father and Jesus personally, believe that Jesus is the son of God, have been baptised in Jesus name, believe everything else about the bible 100 percent correct, but on one point contradict it, they are still a false religon? Or how many beliefs do they have to have that contradict some scripture before they are a false religon? one? two? three? how many?

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ][SIZE=-1]Nehemiah 8:8 And they read in the book, in the law of God, distinctly; and they gave the sense, so that they understood the reading.

isn't giving the sense of scripture interpreting scripture? If not would you be more comfortable if I had asked "what do you see is the sense of these scriptures?" to me it's saying the same thing.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Were one to read the Jewish understanding one would know this was a translation of the "Hebrew" scriptures into Aramaic, the everyday language of the Jews in Babylon. This Aramaic translation was called "Targum."

[size=-1]Daniel gave the interpretation to the king.

Daniel 5:17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.[/size]

[SIZE=-1]So God revealed the interpretation to Daniel and Daniel gave it to the King. God does give interpretations to men. and Men are suppose to give it to other men. God leads all men into the truth, that is giving men the interpretation of scripture, and we are to relate it to other men. Do you honestly believe that everything you believe about the bible is 100 percent accurate? you're absolutely sure about every single minute thing you believe about the b ible? I don't think so. [ . . . ][/size]

God did give Daniel the ability to interpret dreams. The fact that the king's dreams had an interpretation unrelated to the immediate uderstanding is not license for every Jim Jone, David Koresh who comes along to "interpret" scripture any old way they choose. If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Perhaps genus mareca does not understand that..[/size]

 

[2ducklow]

[SIZE=+1]Were one to read the Jewish understanding one would know this was a translation of the "Hebrew" scriptures into Aramaic, the everyday language of the Jews in Babylon. This Aramaic translation was called "Targum."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1] That would require changing the meaning of "make sense" to "translate". Also, not everyone agrees with you.[/SIZE]

The relationship between Targum and Midrash is impossible to define preciesly. Neh 8.8 is frequently cited as the point of departure, or even as the first instance, of both genres. There is says of the reading of the Torah under Ezra, 'And they read from the book, from the Torah of God, in paragraphs and with explanations, so that they understood the reading.' The Targum in any case is not merely a translation but often an explanation and often expansion of the Bible by means of haggadah.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ES...msehOJl&sig=sfzjR3q65cx2gBRKPOQGREUOYD0&hl=en

or here,

Exegesis of the Bible properly began in the period of the Second Temple, at the early stages of the emergent Talumdic culture. True, the word " heb. letters " appears in the Bible on two earlier occasions, but in the sense of "explanation'' and "elucidation", as the Rabbis used it, this word appears only in the Book of Nehemiah "They read from the book of the law of God clearly [and] made it's sense plain.'' (Neh. 8.8)

http://books.google.com/books?id=ua...FkZXTyW&sig=l1qLpRed4Q6W69PFY56Xq0tkXF0&hl=en

[SIZE=+1]God did give Daniel the ability to interpret dreams. The fact that the king's dreams had an interpretation unrelated to the immediate uderstanding is not license for every Jim Jone, David Koresh ( or the murderer John Calvin, or the instigators of the inquisition,et. al. me personally , if I had to choose, I'd choose poison cool aid over slow roasting over an open fire as a way to die.) who comes along to "interpret" scripture any old way they choose. If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Perhaps genus mareca does not understand that..[/SIZE]

I disagree, everyone has a right and a duty to interpret the bible as he or she feels god has revealed it to them. No one is duty bound to accept unquestioningly anyone elses interpretation of scripture no matter how high their office is. The Berians didn't accept what Paul said unquestioningly, they proved it by checking out what Paul said with the scriptures to see If it was true or not, and God commended them in the bible for doing so.

Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Beroea: who when they were come thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.


If even what Paul said should be proven by the scriptures, than surely the things the council of nicea and chalcedon said, should be proven by the scriptures whether true or not by eveyone and not just accepted.


People have different Ideas about what is and isn't plain sense. to some 3 is one is nonsense, to others it sense so deep we can't understand it.

 

[hybrid]

Thus my only statement - Trinity is illogical

who told you there were such things as logical and illogical?
did you eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

You can not be one and be with one as one and the same.

why not?

if you have a lighted candle and lit another candle with it,
was the flame of the new candle the same flame of the former candle? or was it another flame? but can you say they are not the same fire?

does it make sense to you that the two flames are not the same yet not another? and were still talking about an everyday ordinary phenomenon like the fire,

if you can resolved all paradoxes, then you can say something definitive about the spirit. what it can and it cannot do.

 

[2ducklow]

who told you there were such things as logical and illogical?
did you eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

why not?

if you have a lighted candle and lit another candle with it,
was the flame of the new candle the same flame of the former candle? or was it another flame? but can you say they are not the same fire?

does it make sense to you that the two flames are not the same yet not another? and were still talking about an everyday ordinary phenomenon like the fire,

if you can resolved all paradoxes, then you can say something definitive about the spirit. what it can and it cannot do.

what you are saying by your 2 flames one flame analogy is that 2 beings blend into one being, God the Father (one being) and Jesus (2nd being) blend together to make God (one being).

 

[Logicalthinker]

you have interpreted gen. 40,8 which says that god gave an interpretation of a dream to mean that god gives interpretations of scripture. dreams are not scripture. No scripture says all interpretations belong to God, that is your interpretation of Gen. 40.8. If one can't give an interpretation of scripture then that would mean we can only quote scripture and never comment on it. which is absurd.

Look what man has done interpreting the scripture. Praying to idols, baptizing babies, Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of God, Destruction of the earth and everyone goes to heaven. These are all false doctrines. Plus lets have Sunday service and than a Halloween party. Worse yet, they have the Halloween party in the church. They just do what they want. No regard to Jehovah.

Nehemiah 8:8 And they read in the book, in the law of God, distinctly; and they gave the sense, so that they understood the reading.

Notice it says they. It is not one mans opinion. They come together on it. Plus they did not interpret it. They made sense of it. There is a difference. For instance.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

People are free of sin at death. But the false religions teach that you pay for your sin with eternal torture.

They interpret the bible and put a big but on the end. but the wicked burn in hell forever.

People just throw away all the verses that talk about the condition of the dead. dust to dust, Freed of sin, God is love, God is merciful and God does not delight in the death of the wicked one. Than say all wicked go to hell.

Jesus was in hell for three days. Did Satan torture him? Or is hell the grave.

I make sense of the verse by cross referencing, in the bible. Plus you talk to the congregation about it. Get an over all sense of the verse.

Daniel gave the interpretation to the king.

Daniel 5:17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.

So God revealed the interpretation to daniel and daniel gave it to the King. so God does give interpretations to men. and Men are suppose to give it to other men. God leads all men into the truth, that is giving men the interpretation of scripture, and we are to relate it to other men. Do you honestly believe that everything you believe about the bible is 100 percent accurate? you're absolutely sure about every single minute thing you believe about the b ible? I don't think so.

You answered this one your self. God revealed the interpretation. Daniel was the vessel. He did not interpret himself.

No I don't think it is 100% accurate in historical value. But God is Almighty. If he wanted the truth in the bible to stay in the bible. You better believe I know the truth is in the bible. To think otherwise would show a lack of faith in God, and his almighty power. Would a mere man be able to take the truth out of the bible? Would a mere man be more powerful than God?

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

It shall prosper. God is almighty. The truth is in the bible.

So your belief is that the unsaved get thrown into a lake of fire and burn up and are no more, but Satan and his cohorts get tormented forever in the same lake of fire, correct?
but you just said that humans are cast into the lake of fire and get burnt up or did you mean that they just die and aren't cast into the lake of fire, now you seem to be saying its only for satan and his demons,

My congregation, Not just me, believe that it all burns up into nothing. Than a new heaven and new earth will be established. Revelations is a hard book to understand. I'm sorry if I was not clear on that.

aren't these humans mentioned in these verses?

Revelation 20:5-6 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

what power does the second death have over the dead who miss the first resurrection?

isn't the second death the lake of fire according to this scripture?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Since the second death has power over the dead who miss the first resurrection, and the second death is the lake of Fire, how do you get that the second death is only for satan and his demons?

The first resurrection is the anointed. They will be priests to the flock. The second death means nothing to them for they have already been approved by Jehovah. That is why the second death hath no power over them. The rest will live for a thousand years to make up their minds. If they end up not wanting to be part of Gods kingdom they will suffer the second death. It is called the second death because everyone has already died once. Plus when they are cast onto the lake of fire they will be destroyed just like death and hell were done away with, so will they.

So if they have some doctrine that unbeknownst to them contradicts some scripture, then it doesn't matter if they are b orn again, know God the Father and Jesus personally, believe that Jesus is the son of God, have been baptised in Jesus name, believe everything else about the bible 100 percent correct, but on one point contradict it, they are still a false religon? Or how many beliefs do they have to have that contradict some scripture before they are a false religon? one? two? three? how many?

If you were thirsty and I gave you a glass of water you would drink until satisfied. But what if I put just one little drop of urine in it. You wouldn't want to drink it anymore and certainly it would not satisfy you. Should we expect any less of Jehovah. His word is a fresh glass of water that satisfies. Pollute it and people are drinking urine water.

2 Timothy 3:13-14 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

People learn one thing and through time each generation adds to it until poof, it must be the truth. But they were deceived and continue deceiving others with out regard to Jehovah and the truth.

If any religion contradicts the bible it is a false religion. No matter how little it is. The bible is were Christians are to get their doctrine. Not men. The same religion that has all these urine drops in it, is the same one that created the doctrine of the trinity. If they can't get the basics right how are they going to get doctrine right.

God Bless
LT

 

[hybrid]

what you are saying by your 2 flames one flame analogy is that 2 beings blend into one being, God the Father (one being) and Jesus (2nd being) blend together to make God (one being).

that's the idea.

if you're a bit cavalier about how i see "being", you might at least understand where i stand.

for example, if you ask where is the universe, how would you answer it? what point of reference are you going to use to say that something is here or there when every point in the universe is within itself? you can go outside to another universe and say aha, there is the universe. but since both the universes constitute "the" entire universe, there is really no way of telling where it is.

if you cannot pinpoint its location, then is it also possible to say that the universe is nowhere at all? all that we know is it exists or have it's being. can you sense what i mean? does doctrines has to be that definitive? or do we strive to get pass the words (which are symbols and images) to see it's true meaning?

so what is being? (particularly a divine being, in our discussion)
do we define it? or it defines us?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1] That would require changing the meaning of "make sense" to "translate". Also, not everyone agrees with you.[/SIZE]

http://books.google.com/books?id=ES...msehOJl&sig=sfzjR3q65cx2gBRKPOQGREUOYD0&hl=en

or here,

http://books.google.com/books?id=ua...FkZXTyW&sig=l1qLpRed4Q6W69PFY56Xq0tkXF0&hl=en[/font][/size]

Neither of your links support your objection. The 1st I clicked the link and did not even see what you posted. The 2d refers to a different word.

What is the meaning of the word translated "gave the sense?"

[SIZE=-1] I disagree, everyone has a right and a duty to interpret the bible as he or she feels god has revealed it to them. No one is duty bound to accept unquestioningly anyone elses interpretation of scripture no matter how high their office is. The Berians didn't accept what Paul said unquestioningly, they proved it by checking out what Paul said with the scriptures to see If it was true or not, and God commended them in the bible for doing so.[/size]

Irrelevant! I said translate the scripture any old way they want. That means using all of the best langauge sources a person has a available unlike a lot of folks who just go along with whatever their teachers/leaders tell them. Or other folks who will quote anything, by anybody, they find posted online as long as it appears to support their assumptions/presuppositions.

Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Beroea: who when they were come thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.

Go thou and do likewise.

If even what Paul said should be proven by the scriptures, than surely the things the council of nicea and chalcedon said, should be proven by the scriptures whether true or not by eveyone and not just accepted.

If someone does not even know what the councils resolved, and have never compared those writings to scripture then one should not be talking about them.

People have different Ideas about what is and isn't plain sense. to some 3 is one is nonsense, to others it sense so deep we can't understand it.

Even without the doctrine of the Trinity, God is too deep for our understanding.

 

[2ducklow]

Look what man has done interpreting the scripture. Praying to idols, baptizing babies, Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of God, Destruction of the earth and everyone goes to heaven. These are all false doctrines. Plus lets have Sunday service and than a Halloween party. Worse yet, they have the Halloween party in the church. They just do what they want. No regard to Jehovah.

I would agree with you that they have to ignore scriptures and facts to do these things, but I could quote you scripture that your church doesn't obey.

Notice it says they. It is not one mans opinion. They come together on it. Plus they did not interpret it. They made sense of it. There is a difference. For instance.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

People are free of sin at death. But the false religions teach that you pay for your sin with eternal torture.

They interpret the bible and put a big but on the end. but the wicked burn in hell forever.

I don't see how this shows a difference between giving the sense of scripture and interpreting scripture. As to death, everytime the bible uses the word death you have to determine whether it is talking about the first death (our physical death) or the second death (lake of fire) or possibly both. The bible doesn't tell you, you have to figure it out from the context. And as a result there are numerous opinons.

People just throw away all the verses that talk about the condition of the dead. dust to dust, Freed of sin, God is love, God is merciful and God does not delight in the death of the wicked one. Than say all wicked go to hell.

and there are verses that you throw away as well and totally ignore. your doctrine for example ignores the scripture about the rich man in hell being tormented.

Luke 16:23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

actually you prob. just consider it a parable and not an actual event, which to me is just throwing it away. So if someone takes these verses literally, then they got a false religon right? I find that absurd.

Jesus was in hell for three days. Did Satan torture him? Or is hell the grave.

No verse says Satan tortures anyone after death. People are thrown in the Lake of Fire by God not Satan. I believe that Jesus was in the paradise portion of hell where he preached to the followers of Noah who didn't go all the way with him.

I make sense of the verse by cross referencing, in the bible. Plus you talk to the congregation about it. Get an over all sense of the verse.

And you see no possiblity for divergent opions as to what a verse means and what other verse it lines up with?

You answered this one your self. God revealed the interpretation. Daniel was the vessel. He did not interpret himself.

No I don't think it is 100% accurate in historical value. But God is Almighty. If he wanted the truth in the bible to stay in the bible. You better believe I know the truth is in the bible. To think otherwise would show a lack of faith in God, and his almighty power. Would a mere man be able to take the truth out of the bible? Would a mere man be more powerful than God?

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

It shall prosper. God is almighty. The truth is in the bible.

you seem to be saying that the interpretation of every scripture that you have was given to you by God and anyone else who has a different opinon is rejecting the intepretation of Scripture given by God, correct?
But aren't we all responsible before God for what we believe, and what we feel God has revealed to us? why should I or anyone accept what you say is what God revealed to you as proof of anything? you can find people on both sides of any belief who will adamently afirm that God revealed it to them. They both can't be right. I can't accept yours or anyones assertion that God revealed it to you as proof of anything.

My congregation, Not just me, believe that it all burns up into nothing. Than a new heaven and new earth will be established. Revelations is a hard book to understand. I'm sorry if I was not clear on that.



The first resurrection is the anointed. They will be priests to the flock. The second death means nothing to them for they have already been approved by Jehovah. That is why the second death hath no power over them. The rest will live for a thousand years to make up their minds. If they end up not wanting to be part of Gods kingdom they will suffer the second death. It is called the second death because everyone has already died once. Plus when they are cast onto the lake of fire they will be destroyed just like death and hell were done away with, so will they.

I beleive the second death is for all the unsaved throughout all the ages. those liveing durring the millinium, are the people who were not destroyed at the battle of aramegedon, and of course thier descendants durring that 1000 year period. the second resurrection, I believe, is when all those who have not been saved by God, are judged according to their works, and cast into the lake of fire, both those who died in ages past and those who were living durring the millinium and did not accept Jesus unto salvation. So we differ some. so I suppose You would think I have a false religon because my opinon is slightly different.

If you were thirsty and I gave you a glass of water you would drink until satisfied. But what if I put just one little drop of urine in it. You wouldn't want to drink it anymore and certainly it would not satisfy you. Should we expect any less of Jehovah. His word is a fresh glass of water that satisfies. Pollute it and people are drinking urine water.

2 Timothy 3:13-14 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

People learn one thing and through time each generation adds to it until poof, it must be the truth. But they were deceived and continue deceiving others with out regard to Jehovah and the truth.

If any religion contradicts the bible it is a false religion. No matter how little it is. The bible is were Christians are to get their doctrine. Not men. The same religion that has all these urine drops in it, is the same one that created the doctrine of the trinity. If they can't get the basics right how are they going to get doctrine right.

God Bless
LT

and you ignore some scripture as well, you jjust don't see yours , but you see others.

 

[2ducklow]

that's the idea.

if you're a bit cavalier about how i see "being", you might at least understand where i stand.

I explained what I believe what you said equates to, not whether you believe it equates to 2 beings blend into one being.

for example, if you ask where is the universe, how would you answer it? what point of reference are you going to use to say that something is here or there when every point in the universe is within itself? you can go outside to another universe and say aha, there is the universe. but since both the universes constitute "the" entire universe, there is really no way of telling where it is.

whereever it is is where it is. It is not in several different locations at once. I don't know where a lot of stuff I have is precisely, but i do know it does exist and is somewhere precisely.

if you cannot pinpoint its location, then is it also possible to say that the universe is nowhere at all?

nope. I couldn't find my billfold the other day, but I didn't say it was nowhere at all.

all that we know is it exists or have it's being. can you sense what i mean?

not really. Unless you mean that since you can't find where the universe is , therefore 2 beings are one being. which doesn't make any sense.

does doctrines has to be that definitive? or do we strive to get pass the words (which are symbols and images) to see it's true meaning?

words we use to define our doctrine should mean what the words mean not something beyond thier meaning.IMO..

so what is being? (particularly a divine being, in our discussion)
do we define it? or it defines us?

yes we can define being, it's in the dictionary, the word being doesn't define us, but we are beings, we do exist.

A being is something that exists. it be. so if you have 2 beings that are one being, you have 2 things that exist that are one thing that exists.

 

[2ducklow]

Neither of your links support your objection. The 1st I clicked the link and did not even see what you posted. The 2d refers to a different word.

What is the meaning of the word translated "gave the sense?"

gave the sense.

Irrelevant! I said translate the scripture any old way they want. That means using all of the best langauge sources a person has a available

and many times a word has divergent meanings, and which is the correct meaning depends on what one considerst the context to be. and sometimes no one is sure of what the meaning of a word is , usually in the OT, because it is used only once or very infrequently. There is one word in song of songs that occurs only in that book and they have no idea what it means. they just guess.

I do agree though that at times translators translate words that fit their doctrine, and not the context of the scritpure, or even what the word actually means, (1 cor. 14.12 where they almost always translate pneuma incorrectly as spiritual gifts, is a good example of doctrine trumping what the word actually means), but this is universal, everyone does it. No one has translated a perfect translation of the word of God into english. Everyone of them flubbs it up at times, some more so than others. Doctrine influences every translation, which is why the NIV differs from the NWT or my fav. the Rotherham translation called the emphasised bible. but even Rotherham, who I consider the best most accurate translation, because it is so literal, flubbs it up horribley on some scriptures, not as many as most by far though,, I ran accross one the other day.

unlike a lot of folks who just go along with whatever their teachers/leaders tell them. Or other folks who will quote anything, by anybody, they find posted online as long as it appears to support their assumptions/presuppositions.

that charge can easily be leveled at yourself, I recall you quoting the occultic kaballa in support of the jewish origin of trinity. Resorting to quoting occultic books qualifies as quoting anything, by anybody as long as it appears to support their doctrine.

there are people who do that on both sides of the equation. You honestly think every trinitarian investigates in the bible the teachings of their church on trinity? You don't think there is a trinitarian anywhere who just goes along with what his church says without investigating it? not plausible. The truth is in every denomination there are those who check out what is being taught with scripture, and there are others that just accept it unquestioningly. The truth is that we are all in different posisitons with the Lord, and have been given differing amounts of light by God, which results in some of us having more accurate understanding of the scritpure than others. The holy spirit leads all christians into the truth, but not all christians follow that leading equally. God doesn't force us to follow the leading of the holy spirit. God doesn't force us to open up our hearts to him. Just cause someone checks it out with scriputre doesn't mean he did a good job of it or that he didn't do a good job. many people do a lousy job but think they did a great job of checking it out with scripture. Basically, I see it in you, and you see it in me., with tregards to the trinity doctrine, I suspect we probably have similar beiefs though on the subject of eternal torment. and would both see others as not checking out their doctrine, of everybody gets saved no one goes to hell , with scripture. and vice versa.

so you see no possiblity that someone can with all honesty see things differently than you do? I disagree with your analysis, one can put scriptures together in differing ways and come up with different conclusions, It isn't all laid out for us in theological doctrinal order. It's all here a little and there a little. Which is why there are so many doctrines.

Go thou and do likewise.



If someone does not even know what the councils resolved, and have never compared those writings to scripture then one should not be talking about them.

you don't know everything my chuch has resolved yet you reject much of what I say, which is a reflection of my churches beliefs. so why is it ok for you to do so , but not me with your churches beliefs? I don't have to read every book on the occult to know it's not true, I don't have to read every book on calvinism to know it is not true. None of us have time to read everything on any subject to make up our mind whether it is true or not, we all have time constraints. I have read enough about tarot cards to reject them, I have read enough about the occult to reject it, I have read enough about the new age spiritualism to reject it, i have read enough about trinity to reject it. I don't have to read 10,000 books all saying 3 is one to reject it. And it would be improper to read lots of material on a doctrine that one believes to be incorrect for in doing so one opens one's mind up to demonic deception. Once you have determined that a doctrine is wrong, then it's time to go on to something that is true and devote your time and energy to it, not to invistigateing what you have already determined to be false. that's why I don't read JW literature, In spite of your comments to me to the contrary, because it would be opening my mind up to deception. I know enough about them to know they are on the wrongtrack, and I knwo enough about trinity to know it isn't the truth and I know enough about universalism to know it isn't the truth.

Even without the doctrine of the Trinity, God is too deep for our understanding.

according to scripture.

2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

you would have a case, if scripture said ,"God is a trinity" or words to that effect. But it doesn't. Trinity is an interpretation, and as such is subject to being either proved logically or disproved logically. I vote that it is disproved logically. 3 is not one. The fact is however that scripture was given to us to increase our understanding, not decrease it. Confusion is not of The Lord, he says so, and trinity is the ultimate in confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,


trinity is confusion and god is not a god of confusion so God is not a God of trinity. point of logic.

 

[Bananna]

I'm enjoying reading this thread.

blessings
bananna

 

[hybrid]

The fact is however that scripture was given to us to increase our understanding, not decrease it. Confusion is not of The Lord, he says so, and trinity is the ultimate in confusion.

no, trinity is not confusion, it is only your mind that "labels" trinity confusion because you cannot make sense of it. so confusion is a result of the human mind trying to make sense of it all.

1 Corinthians 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

so true. once the mystery of trinity is seen, confusion disappears, and peace sets in.

trinity is confusion and god is not a god of confusion so God is not a God of trinity. point of logic.

confusion is the result of the human mind trying to make sense of it all. the old nature, the adamic man.

let go of trying to make sense and the confusion will go, and what appears is the peace of god.

do you understand now? who calls the shot when something was said, this is confusion, this is orderly? isn't it the human mind. the divine mind does not make judgment. there is no confusion to it and therefore we call it peace that transcends.

stop eating the forbidden fruit.

 

[2ducklow]

no, trinity is not confusion, it is only your mind that "labels" trinity confusion because you cannot make sense of it. so confusion is a result of the human mind trying to make sense of it all. so true. once the mystery of trinity is seen, confusion disappears, and peace sets in.

confusion is the result of the human mind trying to make sense of it all. the old nature, the adamic man.

let go of trying to make sense and the confusion will go, and what appears is the peace of god.

do you understand now? who calls the shot when something was said, this is confusion, this is orderly? isn't it the human mind. the divine mind does not make judgment. there is no confusion to it and therefore we call it peace that transcends.

stop eating the forbidden fruit.

one either makes sense out of scripture, or one makes nonsense out of scripture. makeing sense out of what God said is not sin. To say that one should stop making sense out of God's word and one will not be confused by what God said, well,all I can say is that you think a lot differently than me. ONe can say till he is blue in the face that 3 is one doesn't make sense and is not confusing, but it doesn't convince or persuade me.


I think what you mean is that we should stop trying to figure out trinity and just accept it and then we won't be confused cause we won't b e trying to fiugre out what can't be figured out. I would respond that there is no reason I or anyone should just accept unquestioningly anything someone says about the bible. And trinity is something people say about the bible, it is not what the bible says, So I do not accept trinity unquestioningly, as a result it is confusing to me and anyone who questions it's logic.

If on the otherhand you believe we should always make nonsense and making sense out of anything is a sin, well although that is what your post implies the way you worded it , I don't think you believe that, or do you?

 

[hybrid]

I think what you mean is that we should stop trying to figure out trinity and just accept it and then we won't be confused cause we won't b e trying to fiugre out what can't be figured out

no that is not what i mean.
it is very simple. just follow the psalmers cue...
"Be Still and Know God."

If on the otherhand you believe we should always make nonsense and making sense out of anything is a sin, well although that is what your post implies the way you worded it , I don't think you believe that, or do you?

definitely not how you mean it to be.
though in the original text, to sin is to miss the mark.
existence and reality used to be indivisible.
then men becomes self aware, and started to view himself as something separate from nature/existence/god.

trinity points to the restoration of this pristine unity of all under god.

 

[Logicalthinker]

I would agree with you that they have to ignore scriptures and facts to do these things, but I could quote you scripture that your church doesn't obey.

Please list which scriptures and I will be happy to explain them. JW's don't have all the answers but they don't sit on old stagnant false doctrines either. They progress to better themselves in the eye's of Jehovah.

I don't see how this shows a difference between giving the sense of scripture and interpreting scripture. As to death, every time the bible uses the word death you have to determine whether it is talking about the first death (our physical death) or the second death (lake of fire) or possibly both. The bible doesn't tell you, you have to figure it out from the context. And as a result there are numerous opinions.

But that is not true. People say Uncle Bob is in heaven right this minute. They don't look at the first death as a rest in peace. The false religions teach that the instant you die woooosh off to heaven or hell. This contradicts scripture where the dead know nothing, wages of sin is death, and the dead are free of sin. How many times do you hear someone say their in heaven now.

What about Lazarus. Jesus called him a good man. Why would he be thankful for being back to life if Jesus pulled him out of heaven? Wouldn't he rather of been in heaven?

and there are verses that you throw away as well and totally ignore. your doctrine for example ignores the scripture about the rich man in hell being tormented.

Luke 16:23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

actually you prob. just consider it a parable and not an actual event, which to me is just throwing it away. So if someone takes these verses literally, then they got a false religion right? I find that absurd.

It is a parable. Just like all the other parables that Jesus said. Do we take all the parables to face value. No. Or we would all look like goats or sheep. Bahhh Bahhh. lol. Or some people would look like wheat and others like weeds.

We throw nothing from the bible away like false religions. We make sense of them. It is a parable about spiritual darkness. Not being close to God. about being jailed. The word torment can be cross referenced to Mathew 18:34 Tormentor is a jailer. Being in torment, is jailed. The Greek word ba'snos. The same word used in Rev 20:10

Mathew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Plus in this verse it says eternal destruction.

2 Thessalonian 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Now put 2 and 2 together the lake of fire is Gods way of doing away with things. Hence death and hell are thrown into the fire. They are done away with into eternal destruction.

Plus this would back up the parable about the rich man. everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. So was the rich man.

No verse says Satan tortures anyone after death. People are thrown in the Lake of Fire by God not Satan.

Your right. No verse says that. Yet false religion tells people that Satan tortures you in hell. A matter of fact they teach that hell is Satan's cozy little home.

I believe that Jesus was in the paradise portion of hell where he preached to the followers of Noah who didn't go all the way with him.

Here is the problem. This is not scriptural. What does the bible say? Please show me a scripture that says hell has a paradise. That is how false religion is spread. Scripture is to set all matters straight.

If you are referring to when he died and was in the grave for 3 days. He was dead. He did not go to heaven or literal hell. He was as dead as aunt Flow. Because of what he said to Mary.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He sat dead in the grave for three days. Than God resurrected him. He said so himself. He was not in heaven.
False religion teaches he went straight to heaven, But scripture says different.

And you see no possibility for divergent opions as to what a verse means and what other verse it lines up with?
you seem to be saying that the interpretation of every scripture that you have was given to you by God and anyone else who has a different opinon is rejecting the intepretation of Scripture given by God, correct?.

It was not given to me. It was given to all of us, in the bible. People just don't read it. They make up what is in it or continue with mans doctrines instead of the bible.
Plus 7,000,000 people think exactly the way I do and growing. All other religions are shrinking and none of them think the same. God is all about unity. I can go to a Sunday service here one Sunday. Than be in Japan the next Sunday and the service will leave off exactly where it left off at my home. The same bible study is the same everywhere at the same time. Pretty cool. How many Christian religions are that organized. All 7,000,000 of us are on the same exact page. We believe and read the bible all the same. You can't even find that in one church today. Everyone in false religion have their own idea. No unity.

But aren't we all responsible before God for what we believe, and what we feel God has revealed to us? why should I or anyone accept what you say is what God revealed to you as proof of anything? you can find people on both sides of any belief who will adamently afirm that God revealed it to them. They both can't be right. I can't accept yours or anyones assertion that God revealed it to you as proof of anything.

Your right. We are all responsible for what we believe. That is why it is no little matter, It should be taken very serious. God revealed the truth to us in the bible. The bible is used to set matters strait. Plus your right, both can't be right. But you have said that you have seen churches not following doctrine. Than get out of it. Keep searching, until you find one that does keep to doctrine. Than you have found the truth.

Is God going to reveal things to religions that don't follow his doctrine? Or would he reveal things to the religion that does follow his doctrine?

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

One faith. Not 12 or 13, but one. plus what is the knowledge of truth. Is it that Mary is the mother of God. Is it that Satan lives in hell, is that you can buy your way into heaven (indulgences),War, killing (inquisition), shedding of innocent blood or maybe it is praying to statues of saints.

All these practices come from the same place the doctrine of the trinity comes from. So is this the knowledge of truth. Or is it made up by man to keep control of man.

The doctrine of the trinity came from the same place that has so much wrong. Why should I believe them? They have already proven their fallacy to me.

I beleive the second death is for all the unsaved throughout all the ages. those liveing durring the millinium, are the people who were not destroyed at the battle of aramegedon, and of course thier descendants durring that 1000 year period. the second resurrection, I believe, is when all those who have not been saved by God, are judged according to their works, and cast into the lake of fire, both those who died in ages past and those who were living durring the millinium and did not accept Jesus unto salvation. So we differ some. so I suppose You would think I have a false religon because my opinon is slightly different.
and you ignore some scripture as well, you jjust don't see yours , but you see others.

We do differ some. The second death is for all that do not choose to follow Christ. They will go to eternal destruction.

What scriptures do I ignore? I have answered every scripture with a scripture.

People are snared into false religions. Its a trap according to the bible. They don't even know their in one most of the time. Because it feels good, But if the religion your in does not follow doctrine. What else would it be? Gods halfway house? Halfway to the truth.

God Bless
LT

 

[2ducklow]

Please list which scriptures and I will be happy to explain them.

There are numerous ones, I don't want to get sidetracked, I know you have an explanation why you don't do any of them or why you feel they don't mean what they say, or why we shouldn't do it anymore, etc.

here's one,

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

God speaking through the apostle paul wishes that all speak in tongues. I'm sure you got a way around it. But the net result is tGod said he wants us all to speak in tongues, and you don't or if you do, JW's don't. cause people who know the Lord personally don't genreally talk that way.

Here's another verse JW's like to change.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.


they change know to know about, actually the way they word it is "taking in knowledge of"f. So does know about mean know and know mean know about in JW parlance? If so then you won't have the unity of the faith until you know Jesus personally, cause eph 4. says 'till we attain the knowledge of the son". How do you know when to reverse, or is it anytime it says "know' it means 'knowledge of" and any time it says "knowledge of" it means "know"?

ok here's another.




John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

JW's say you don't have to be born again Jesus said you must be born again.

JW's don't have all the answers but they don't sit on old stagnant false doctrines either. They progress to better themselves in the eye's of Jehovah.

my opinion is that they have some very serious errors. Beleiveing that one doesn't have to be born again is much much much more serious error than trinity.

But that is not true. People say Uncle Bob is in heaven right this minute. They don't look at the first death as a rest in peace. The false religions teach that the instant you die woooosh off to heaven or hell. This contradicts scripture where the dead know nothing, wages of sin is death, and the dead are free of sin. How many times do you hear someone say their in heaven now.

What about Lazarus. Jesus called him a good man. Why would he be thankful for being back to life if Jesus pulled him out of heaven? Wouldn't he rather of been in heaven?

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


pretty clear to me. if I die i'm absent from this body, it turns to dust, but I am present with the Lord.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Stephen got absent from his body, and was received by the Lord. (I believe our human spirits transport our soul to be in the presence of the Lord Jesus when we die. That's what I beleive these scritpures mean)

It is a parable. Just like all the other parables that Jesus said. Do we take all the parables to face value. No. Or we would all look like goats or sheep. Bahhh Bahhh. lol. Or some people would look like wheat and others like weeds.

So what your saying is that when Jesus said Lazerus spoke to the rich man in hell, Lazerus didn't actually do it, Jesus just made it and said Lazerus did stuff he never did, cause Jesus wanted to make a parable. I don't beleive Jesus lied when he said lazerus spoke to the rich man in hell. You can believe it if you want but not me.

We throw nothing from the bible away like false religions. We make sense of them. It is a parable about spiritual darkness. Not being close to God. about being jailed. The word torment can be cross referenced to Mathew 18:34 Tormentor is a jailer. Being in torment, is jailed. The Greek word ba'snos. The same word used in Rev 20:10

there are all kinds of torment. torment in the lake of fire is not the same kind of torment as getting a hangnail.

Mathew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Plus in this verse it says eternal destruction.

2 Thessalonian 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Now put 2 and 2 together the lake of fire is Gods way of doing away with things. Hence death and hell are thrown into the fire. They are done away with into eternal destruction.

someone who commits murder and is sentenced to life in prison without parole has thrown his life away forever. people say stuff like that. the bible is in everyday common Greek. living for all eternity in the lake of fire and it's torment, ceratainly qualifys as a life that has been destroyed forever. I wouldn't call it a sucess.

Plus this would back up the parable about the rich man. everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. So was the rich man.


Your right. No verse says that. Yet false religion tells people that Satan tortures you in hell. A matter of fact they teach that hell is Satan's cozy little home.



Here is the problem. This is not scriptural. What does the bible say? Please show me a scripture that says hell has a paradise. That is how false religion is spread. Scripture is to set all matters straight.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

paradise is in the heart of the earth.

If you are referring to when he died and was in the grave for 3 days. He was dead. He did not go to heaven or literal hell. He was as dead as aunt Flow. Because of what he said to Mary.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He sat dead in the grave for three days. Than God resurrected him. He said so himself. He was not in heaven.
False religion teaches he went straight to heaven, But scripture says different.

christians teach he was in the heart of the earth in paradise, not that he went straight to heaven after he died. you are mistaken.

It was not given to me. It was given to all of us, in the bible. People just don't read it. They make up what is in it or continue with mans doctrines instead of the bible.
Plus 7,000,000 people think exactly the way I do and growing. All other religions are shrinking and none of them think the same. God is all about unity.

having unity now is unbiblical.

Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

According to scripture above, we won't have the unity of the faith until we are a fullgrown man, attaining unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. I can assure you no one on earth has attained to that measure yet.

I can go to a Sunday service here one Sunday. Than be in Japan the next Sunday and the service will leave off exactly where it left off at my home. The same bible study is the same everywhere at the same time. Pretty cool.

no, it justshows that they aren't open to the leading of the holy spirit.

How many Christian religions are that organized. All 7,000,000 of us are on the same exact page. We believe and read the bible all the same. You can't even find that in one church today. Everyone in false religion have their own idea. No unity.

i rather have 90 percent truth with some disunity, than 10 percent truth with 100 percent unity.

Your right. We are all responsible for what we believe. That is why it is no little matter, It should be taken very serious. God revealed the truth to us in the bible. The bible is used to set matters strait. Plus your right, both can't be right. But you have said that you have seen churches not following doctrine. Than get out of it. Keep searching, until you find one that does keep to doctrine. Than you have found the truth.

Is God going to reveal things to religions that don't follow his doctrine? Or would he reveal things to the religion that does follow his doctrine?


Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

One faith. Not 12 or 13, but one. plus what is the knowledge of truth. Is it that Mary is the mother of God. Is it that Satan lives in hell, is that you can buy your way into heaven (indulgences),War, killing (inquisition), shedding of innocent blood or maybe it is praying to statues of saints.

All these practices come from the same place the doctrine of the trinity comes from. So is this the knowledge of truth. Or is it made up by man to keep control of man.

The doctrine of the trinity came from the same place that has so much wrong. Why should I believe them? They have already proven their fallacy to me.



We do differ some. The second death is for all that do not choose to follow Christ. They will go to eternal destruction.

What scriptures do I ignore? I have answered every scripture with a scripture.

People are snared into false religions. Its a trap according to the bible. They don't even know their in one most of the time. Because it feels good, But if the religion your in does not follow doctrine. What else would it be? Gods halfway house? Halfway to the truth.

God Bless
LT

You talk a lot about false religons. do you mean that anyone who disagrees with what you believe about anything, isn't a believer in Jesus? and is therefore unsaved? makes me wonder if you even know the LOrd personally. Do you?

 

[Logicalthinker]

There are numerous ones, I don't want to get sidetracked, I know you have an explanation why you don't do any of them or why you feel they don't mean what they say, or why we shouldn't do it anymore, etc.

here's one,

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

God speaking through the apostle paul wishes that all speak in tongues. I'm sure you got a way around it. But the net result is tGod said he wants us all to speak in tongues, and you don't or if you do, JW's don't.

Your right we don't speak in tongues. The apostles did though. But once all was written down it was no longer done. Plus JWs speak in many tongues. over 400 a matter of fact. We print our bibles in more than 400 languages. Free of charge too. We don't charge people for the good news like Christian stores do.

Have you ever watched people speak in tongues. It's demons dude. That's why no one understands them. Blah blah babble babble hiccup gurgle twitch. That is what people call tongues now a days. Pretty funny. lol. True tongues were understood. People heard their own languages in their ears. What good is it to hear someone babble. lol

Galations 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

everything has been said and is in the bible. There is no new info from the angels. If new info comes let him be accursed.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

JW's say you don't have to be born again Jesus said you must be born again
my opinion is that they have some very serious errors. Beleiveing that one doesn't have to be born again is much much much more serious error than trinity.

Good thing it is your opinion and not scriptural. Plus who truly is some one born again. Is it someone that has given his very life to Jehovah.
Or is it some one that claims to be born again and smokes, watches violent movies, fornicates, plays violent video games, and on and on.

They are lying to themselves. Once saved always saved. lol. Whatever. That is the attitude of the world. The bible does not support this.
King Solomon died out of Jehovah's favor. He was loved by Jehovah.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


pretty clear to me. if I die i'm absent from this body, it turns to dust, but I am present with the Lord.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Stephen got absent from his body, and was received by the Lord. (I believe our human spirits transport our soul to be in the presence of the Lord Jesus when we die. That's what I beleive these scritpures mean)

You have the anointed mixed up with every one else. All the apostles, paul, everyone at Pentecost all became anointed. They go to heaven to be priests. A total of 144,000 humans will be anointed. That is all that go to heaven. The rest of us are resurrected on the new Earth. Do you read the bible? You know the meek shall inherit the earth. Jehovah is a God of the living not the dead.

what verse says it is a parable? If Jesus talks about someone from the OT then it's a parable right? not in my book.
there are all kinds of torment. torment in the lake of fire is not the same kind of torment and getting a hangnail.
someone who commits murder and is sentenced to life in prison without parole has thrown his life away forever. people say stuff like that. the bible is in everyday common Greek. living for all eternity in the lake of fire and it's torment, ceratainly qualifys as a life that has been destroyed forever. I wouldn't call it a sucess.

What are you talking about. The parable of the rich man is not from the OT. It is in the NT. That is why Lazarus is in the parable. He was not even alive in the OT.
Again you do not have scripture right. A person in prison without parole has the same chance as everyone else. His life has not been thrown away to Jehovah.
You skipped answering my scriptures about eternal destruction. Plus the first prophecy in the bible says Satan will be killed. Gen 3:15

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

In this verse the comma was translated in the wrong spot. John 20:17 wouldn't make sense.
NWT
And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

This does not contradict what Jesus told Mary. The other one contradicts Jesus. The thief was in heaven before Jesus. No I don't think so. Plus Jesus was talking about paradise, not heaven. 2 different things. The thief is going to be resurrected.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Clearly he was not in heaven that day with the thief. He was dead in the grave for 3 days. Dead.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

paradise is in the heart of the earth.

christians teach he was in the heart of the earth in paradise, not that he went straight to heaven after he died. you are mistaken.

Where does it say the heart of the earth is paradise. It says heart of earth. Yeh the grave. in the dirt. Dead. Just like everyone else. But because of his perfect nature and living sinless Jehovah raised him from the dead. Resurrected him. Just like he will resurrect the followers of Christ.

having unity now is unbiblical.

Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

According to scripture above, we won't have the unity of the faith until we are a fullgrown man, attaining unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. I can assure you no one on earth has attained to that measure yet.
no, it justshows that they aren't open to the leading of the holy spirit.

Your right no one has attained it yet. But we are working very hard to bring others into the kingdom. If everyone were JWs. There would be no more war, no more stealing, no more lying and everyone would start to grow up. Plus the bible says his Kingdom will be established before the end comes. Hmm. Who could that be.

Revelations 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Satan is cast down to earth and look Jesus followers overcame Satan by Jesus' blood and testimony.

So who fits God's kingdom on earth. It would be a religion that does not make war. One that loves it's enemies, and one that does not seek vengeance, for vengeance is the Lords.

But all the Christian religions go off and kill people in war, They seek vengeance (9/11), and they do not love their enemies, just as Jesus commanded us.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

You have to love everyone. Iranians, Koreans, Japanese, Russian and on and on. If you go out to kill them, how does that show love for your brother. If you seek vengeance on them how does that show love?

Plus I would like to point out that it says love God whom he hath not seen. Well people surly loved Jesus and they saw him a lot. This verse shows a distinct difference in the two. One is seen and loved. The other is unseen and loved. hmm.

i rather have 90 percent truth with some disunity, than 10 percent truth with 100 percent unity.
You talk a lot about false religons. do you mean that anyone who disagrees with what you believe about anything, isn't a believer in Jesus? and is therefore unsaved? makes me wonder if you even know the LOrd personally. Do you?

I know him very well. I know him so well I can easily say I am a follower of him. I don't hate my enemies, I don't make war, and I follow his commandments very strictly. Do you?
Plus I never said who was saved and not saved.
He tells us who gets in to the kingdom. People that don't do any of these things gets in.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

It also says in scripture that he will bring the just and the unjust. He will read the hearts. I just choose to follow a strict religion because I love him so much. I want him to be proud of me, when it is all said and done. Plus when I say Lord Lord he will know me. But people that don't follow scripture risk the chance of saying Lord Lord, and he says I don't know you. But they thought they did.

Again, If a religion does not follow the doctrines of the bible it is a false religion. What else would it be. I have shown you countless inconsistency with the very religion that created the doctrine of the trinity. They don't follow scripture so what would make you think they got the trinity right. The odds are against them. They got everything else wrong and did things out of greed at times. Selfish men.

Plus Jesus died perfect and sinless.

What if my name was Billy Bob Sr. and I had a son Billy Bob Jr. If I got pulled over by the police and told them I was my son Billy Bob Jr. That would be dishonest and a lie.
Well Jesus said he was the son of God. Was he lying? If he was God, why lie, just tell us the truth. Jesus was all about the truth and was no liar. So he must have been the son of God just like he claimed.

God Bless
LT