DEMONIC OPPRESSION VS POSSESSION ??

[Solomons Porch]

@Solomons Porch
In case it is too late to edit my post. Whatever you do in your private prayer. As long as the church is not be interrupted like you said then it is cool. I would just pray that you do also pray to God in a language you understand and control with your own mind. It is important to pray on your own behalf as well.

We cool no beef here

 

[Grandpa2390]

You make me laugh. I partly agree and you right Pops, wrong thread lol......coming up in here like a boss......I kinda like your style though, go ahead with your bad self

Like a boss? My bad self? I am an old man. You have to speak to me in english

I tried to send a PM, but I couldn't figure out how.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

This isn't really the forum to discuss this topic. I don't want to derail the thread. I used to believe these things.
I will just point out that biblically, the spiritual gifts were not given for self-edification.

Paul was telling them that it doesn't matter how you speak, even if you somehow spoke in a holiest of holy languages, it would be meaningless without love. not saying there was such a language.

He said himself that we would not even pray in an unknown language.
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Pray in a language you understand. The Holy Spirit is still groaning on your behalf. No worries. You can pray in spanish if you know spanish. or french etc. But if you are praying for other people (in front of other people) you Paul says to pray in their language unless there is an interpreter. that goes for the real and the counterfeit. We should not go to Portugal, enter a church and start preaching/praying in english. No one could understand unless there was someone there to translate english to portugal. No one would be edified. because no one could understand your prayer or sermon. Amen?
We can agree when it comes to real languages I am sure right? Would you be edified if you went to a church that you did not understand the language?

I tend to agree with this. I do however hear people's testimonies of them praying in tongues privately and to those persons I do not want to ignore their personal experience. It is just not something I find done in the bible or something that I can see evidence of doing in the bible. The gifts of of the spirit are supposed to be used for the edifying of the church. Realistically if you were to pray in a language you do not understand, you can't learn anything or improve your understanding of the things of God. It is more of an emotional experience and while there are genuine emotional experiences of course, it is one of the easiest things for the devil to imitate.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Like a boss? My bad self? I am an old man. You have to speak to me in english

I tried to send a PM, but I couldn't figure out how.

It's a compliment ! Trust me it is..

 

[PROPHECYKID]

What are your thoughts on mental illness and demonic? Here take a pill it will get better, heres your next appointment we can talk about it then.
And whats the divider between once again, possession, oppression and torment ?? And they live like this their whole life and at the age of 50 say they have had enough and commit suicide. Just wondering what others thoughts are???

Well mental illness can come from a demonic presence or it could be a true health related issue. Either way, my belief is that pills are not the solution. Some of the pills have the terrible side effect of depression and suicidal thoughts. Clearly not the solution.

 

[Grandpa2390]

I tend to agree with this. I do however hear people's testimonies of them praying in tongues privately and to those persons I do not want to ignore their personal experience. It is just not something I find done in the bible or something that I can see evidence of doing in the bible. The gifts of of the spirit are supposed to be used for the edifying of the church. Realistically if you were to pray in a language you do not understand, you can't learn anything or improve your understanding of the things of God. It is more of an emotional experience and while there are genuine emotional experiences of course, it is one of the easiest things for the devil to imitate.

Amen! Us humans have a confirmation bias, we seek out evidence that confirms what we believe and ignore the rest. I had to get over that bias to change my mind on tongues. and then I went the opposite way. After I was convinced, I went back and spoke to my pastor, other elders, and looked at Pentecostal commentaries. And it basically boils down to "you have to experience it". Even the commentary author wrote that. He couldn't defend on scripture, he just attacked the opposing view saying "other people will say this, but they haven't experienced it. If they had, they wouldn't be able to that it isn't real."

I don't like that. Scripture should interpret experience... not the other way around.

 

[Solomons Porch]

I'll explain after while, gotta handle the Hubbys hunger pains. But trust me it's a compliment.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Scripture should interpret experience... not the other way around.

I think this was very profound.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A genuine believer cannot be possessed by demons because he has the Holy Spirit living in him. Light cannot fellowship with darkness, and so when the Holy Spirit comes in, demons are shut out. The devil can send a lying spirit to a believer to trick him into believing that he is possessed by a demon when, in fact, it can be an oppression.

Because unbelievers are in the world, and the devil is the god of this world, they are in the complete control of demons. If they get involved in the occult or pagan false gods or even false "pseudo-christian" religions, they can be possessed with demons because there is no Holy Spirit in them to keep them out. These people can look very normal and live normal lives. The demons don't need to manifest because they have complete control anyway. Demons don't like to advertise their presence, and this is why many (not all) mental patients are demon possessed (but it takes careful counselling to distinguish between the two, and fools can rush in where angels fear to tread, causing damage to people's lives and withholding good medical treatment where it is necessary and helpful).

When a person receives Christ, if he is demon possessed, the demon may manifest and it can be cast out to enable that person to be filled with the Spirit. When a person receives Christ he is taken out of the kingdom of darkness and put into the kingdom of God, so the demon has no further right to possess that person so it gets kicked out. But it can still control that person through oppression and obsession.

This is what happened to me. I received Christ and because of some occult practices in my parental home, there was an influence there. When I became a Christian, the obsessive demon transformed itself into a religious spirit of pride and piousness. Two years later, I was ministered to, and it was broken off me. Because I wasn't possessed, nothing came out screaming or anything like that, but I had a vision of Jesus and I ended up on the floor weeping my eyes out. When I got up, I was freed and changed. After that, I had the wonderful experience of God revealing Himself to me on a personal level.

What this tells me is that believers can be influenced by obsessive and oppressive demons. The gift of discerning of the spirits can reveal this to a wise and senstive counsellor. I don't believe in dealing with demons in public. I believe that ministry and deliverance belong in the counselling room. Counselling can take place through a check-list of possible involvements in the occult, immoral relationships, pagan and pseudo-christian cults, traumatic events, etc. As the checklist is gone through and involvements, bitterness, fears, etc., are renounced, a demon may manifest itself, and therefore can be ejected at that point. Often, when a person goes through the checklist, the only manifestation is a real sense of freedom and rejoicing.

What happens when a person is possessed, or if a believer remains obsessed or oppressed by demons, is that they have done something that has invited the demon in, and like rats that cannot be elimated until you get rid of the garbage they feed on, demons feel that they the right to be there because they were invited in because the garbage is there for them to feed on. So, good counselling gets rid of the garbage, and then the demon has nothing to feed on, and so has no further right to be there. What makes it difficult to get some free from demon influence is that the person trying to minister does not get rid of the garbage first. That is why we see some dramatic events when people try casting demons out of people in public altar calls without the background counselling to identify the garbage and to get rid of it first. But once the garbage is gone, the demon will often say, "There's nothing here for me any longer so I'll have to go." And then deliverance will come a lot easier.

 

[Solomons Porch]

A genuine believer cannot be possessed by demons because he has the Holy Spirit living in him. Light cannot fellowship with darkness, and so when the Holy Spirit comes in, demons are shut out. The devil can send a lying spirit to a believer to trick him into believing that he is possessed by a demon when, in fact, it can be an oppression.

Because unbelievers are in the world, and the devil is the god of this world, they are in the complete control of demons. If they get involved in the occult or pagan false gods or even false "pseudo-christian" religions, they can be possessed with demons because there is no Holy Spirit in them to keep them out. These people can look very normal and live normal lives. The demons don't need to manifest because they have complete control anyway. Demons don't like to advertise their presence, and this is why many (not all) mental patients are demon possessed (but it takes careful counselling to distinguish between the two, and fools can rush in where angels fear to tread, causing damage to people's lives and withholding good medical treatment where it is necessary and helpful).

When a person receives Christ, if he is demon possessed, the demon may manifest and it can be cast out to enable that person to be filled with the Spirit. When a person receives Christ he is taken out of the kingdom of darkness and put into the kingdom of God, so the demon has no further right to possess that person so it gets kicked out. But it can still control that person through oppression and obsession.

This is what happened to me. I received Christ and because of some occult practices in my parental home, there was an influence there. When I became a Christian, the obsessive demon transformed itself into a religious spirit of pride and piousness. Two years later, I was ministered to, and it was broken off me. Because I wasn't possessed, nothing came out screaming or anything like that, but I had a vision of Jesus and I ended up on the floor weeping my eyes out. When I got up, I was freed and changed. After that, I had the wonderful experience of God revealing Himself to me on a personal level.

What this tells me is that believers can be influenced by obsessive and oppressive demons. The gift of discerning of the spirits can reveal this to a wise and senstive counsellor. I don't believe in dealing with demons in public. I believe that ministry and deliverance belong in the counselling room. Counselling can take place through a check-list of possible involvements in the occult, immoral relationships, pagan and pseudo-christian cults, traumatic events, etc. As the checklist is gone through and involvements, bitterness, fears, etc., are renounced, a demon may manifest itself, and therefore can be ejected at that point. Often, when a person goes through the checklist, the only manifestation is a real sense of freedom and rejoicing.

What happens when a person is possessed, or if a believer remains obsessed or oppressed by demons, is that they have done something that has invited the demon in, and like rats that cannot be elimated until you get rid of the garbage they feed on, demons feel that they the right to be there because they were invited in because the garbage is there for them to feed on. So, good counselling gets rid of the garbage, and then the demon has nothing to feed on, and so has no further right to be there. What makes it difficult to get some free from demon influence is that the person trying to minister does not get rid of the garbage first. That is why we see some dramatic events when people try casting demons out of people in public altar calls without the background counselling to identify the garbage and to get rid of it first. But once the garbage is gone, the demon will often say, "There's nothing here for me any longer so I'll have to go." And then deliverance will come a lot easier.

You delivered that with pure perfection, thank you. God has truly revealed this to you. Thank you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well I want to share this story and you guys tell me what you think.

There was a lady who used to live around the area where I lived. Every week she used to attend a particular charismatic church and every week or so they would cast demons out of her. Another one of the former members of that church told us that whenever she did not come they would be a bit disappointed because herself along with others would make the service so much more lively. But every time she was there, they had to cast out a demon out of her and it was quite a scene.

She stopped going to that church and started going to my church. The lady was totally fine. No issues. She came to church, worshipped, sang praises, no problem.

How do you explain a situation like this?

If the lady is fine and normal in your church, then I would say that the people in the Charismatic church were imagining that she had demons when such was not the case. I guess the public displays were entertainment value for them at her expense. If there was a demon involved, it would have been a lying demon deceiving those who were trying to cast out demons from her, and another type of deceptive demon that tricked her into believing that she was demon possessed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Very interesting, so "MAYBE" the demons used her within that church only?? As to "entertain" a false religion or spirit of distraction, which would be the purpose of NOT BEING WITH GOD, BUT MAN....?

Whats your thoughts????

As I said in my other post: It was the result of a deception about demons being there when they weren't, to sow confusion in that church.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh my goodness! Absolutely! This is the kind of stuff that goes on in Pentecostal churches. The emphasis is not on the truth, not on the Word of God. The emphasis and delight is on miracles and spiritual scenes. Speaking in tongues, casting out demons, getting drunk in the spirit, etc.

The preachers would even say things like "when is the last time you spoke in tongues?" in regards to why your spiritual life is not going well at the moment and you are struggling. It was a scene no matter what if the music was pumping and people let "The spirit move", but if there was someone there who had "a demon", then look out! church could easily go on for 2 hours overtime with the Bible never being opened.

Things to remember:
the people visiting church don't know anything. They are impressionable. They know they need something more than the Physical and they are drawn in by the spiritual claims. With an ignorance of scripture, they can't argue with anything. So they go with the flow and get sucked in. Unfortunately, in these environments, study of the bible is never really pushed. Never really taught. So these people live the rest of their lives (if they stay. A lot of them don't get enough substance to maintain) at that level.

Some of us, by the grace of God, opened up their bible and were led to Teachers and Preachers of the Word like Pastor John Macarthur Jr and learned the truth about things like tongues and demon possession, etc.
And we left that church and are going someplace else.

I cannot put into words the emphasis placed on this stuff. When I say that these charismatic churches are the reincarnation of the church in Corinth, literally. everything that Paul spoke about in the chapter on tongues, is written to this church, but they interpret it to suit their doctrine. The emphasis on a show of spirituality on the outside. If they had been around during the time of Jesus, they would have been chasing him across the sea for another miracle.

You are correct. There are too many things being done in public when they should be done in private. Praying in tongues is a private affair between the believer and God. Public tongues should only be by two or three and should always be followed with an interpretation.

Deliverance from demons should be done in a more private counselling environment rather than at a public altar. Demons either keep themselves very secret while there is no need to manifest, but when they manifest, they love to entertain; and so they love people trying to cast them out in public because then they can put on a great public show for the spectators.

By contrast, my first experience in a church was where the preacher used up the whole stage to act out his message about David and Goliath, and it was one of the main things that influenced me to receive Christ as my Saviour that night. He showed excitement and passion in his preaching and I thought that if the gospel meant that much to him, then it should mean that much to me.

 

[Solomons Porch]

You are correct. There are too many things being done in public when they should be done in private. Praying in tongues is a private affair between the believer and God. Public tongues should only be by two or three and should always be followed with an interpretation.

Deliverance from demons should be done in a more private counselling environment rather than at a public altar. Demons either keep themselves very secret while there is no need to manifest, but when they manifest, they love to entertain; and so they love people trying to cast them out in public because then they can put on a great public show for the spectators.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT, THANK YOU

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What are your thoughts on mental illness and demonic? Here take a pill it will get better, heres your next appointment we can talk about it then.
And whats the divider between once again, possession, oppression and torment ?? And they live like this their whole life and at the age of 50 say they have had enough and commit suicide. Just wondering what others thoughts are???

My daughter, at the age of 16 went into a clinical depression for two years. She heard voices and had panic attacks as well. I prayed intensely for her (not in her presence) over that two years. She did cognitive therapy, consulted with a psychiatrist, went on a course of anti-depressants, spent seven months in rehab, and came out of it to be a strong, resourceful and confident woman. She is still on anti-depressants as a preventative measure. I suggested to her that some of her depression may have come from a spiritual influence, but she stoutly told me that it was a mental sickness and not demon activity! I didn't push the point, but I do suspect that the effects of being bullied at school and the trauma associated with that might have opened the way for a depressive spirit to oppress her. That's what I tell God anyway.

Dr Neil Anderson wrote a book called, "Finding Hope Again" which deals with depression and its causes. It is a great book that gives a lot of teaching about when depression is a sickness and when it could be demonic influence. Anyone in Christian ministry dealing with people with mental health issues should read that book.

Anyone wanting to get into the deliverance ministry should read Dr Ed Murphy's book, "The Handbook of Spiritual Warfare"; and Dr Neil Anderson's book "The Bondage Breaker". These are the best books I have ever read on the topic, and have strongly influenced my view of the deliverance ministry and how it should be practised.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You make me laugh. I partly agree and you right Pops, wrong thread lol......coming up in here like a boss......I kinda like your style though, go ahead with your bad self

Here's something else to make you laugh. My flatmate had an elephant as a pet, but he mislaid it. It is in the house somewhere...

He also had a dog, but spilled spot remover on it, and it is not there any more.

 

[4x4toy]

Here's something else to make you laugh. My flatmate had an elephant as a pet, but he mislaid it. It is in the house somewhere...

He also had a dog, but spilled spot remover on it, and it is not there any more.

Dog gone !!!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Dog gone !!!

I thought that I was drinking too much coffee, so I bought a de-caffeinated coffee table. You wouldn't know it by just looking at it.

Some Charismatics might say I have a spirit of jokes, but I call it healing by humour.

 

[4x4toy]

Here's one that made me laugh .. One night reading the bible where Peter left the boat and walked to Jesus on the water then sank .. I envisioned Jesus and the disciples siting around a fire that night
when Peter spoke up laughing and said Lord now I know why you call me rock , because I sure sank like one when I turned you loose .. I imagined them all having a good laugh and I was giggling too ..

 

[Solomons Porch]

I thought that I was drinking too much coffee, so I bought a de-caffeinated coffee table. You wouldn't know it by just looking at it.

Some Charismatics might say I have a spirit of jokes, but I call it healing by humour.

so true my friend so true.....much needed