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Democracy or hypocrisy

SavedByGrace3

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Here is a brief synops regarding the "peace loving" French by a brother of mine:


Here is food for thought regarding the current French Government's posture as it relates to their positioning versus the United Nations and the U.S. I threw in a brief military history for good measure. I was annoyed sufficiently with the French position that I did a bit of research as shown below. I was not surprised that my opinions paralleled those of many others. While the basic content of my research is negative, I am not overly surprised. I could not find any (other than the Iraqi newspapers) U.S. based information that concurred with or supported the French position, notwithstanding our youngest vocal college aged non-voting student population.

If you have the time to or patience read what other countries think of the current U.S. state of affairs, here is a link to many U.S. and foreign newspapers. It is an extensive list. http://www.refdesk.com/paper.html

Feel free to pass this message onto your Family and friends, should you concur with the postulates and positions.

Pennsylvania State US Representative (Stephen B.) has submitted a legislative "Bill" to ban French Wines in his State. His position is that the recent actions of the French Government is putting US Service men & Women at risk and he does not want to reward France for their position on combating terrorism and ignoring the obvious threats that Saddam and his regime present. This U.S. Rep is also considering pulling all imported German Beer from his State. March 4, 2003, Neil Cavoto - Fox News.

Recall the popular French Post World War II quote: "Nous n'oublions pas" {We Will Never Forget} - Seems the French Government has forgotten the ultimate sacrifices the US, British, and Canadian Soldiers made during June 1944 on the Beaches of Normandy.

(See Cartoons at The NY Post for Jan & Feb 2003) http://www.nypost.com/delonas/2003/022003.htm

US Senator John McCain - Arizona. When rudely confronted by a French Government Official, McCain asked this French executive if he spook German. When the official responded "no", McCain responded simply with "you are welcome" and walked away.

"Going to War without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. You're merely leaving behind a lot of noisy, worthless baggage."- From an American representative to Canada's CBC.

"FOR SALE: Thousands French WWII Military Rifles - Like New, Never fired, only dropped once".

Ripley's: The smallest book in the world "The book of French Military Heroes".

France demands "more time" for the UN sanctioned Weapons Inspectors in Iraq - They state 4 additional months are needed. This should be sufficient time for France to destroy all their documentation defining their sale(s) of "dual-use" products to Iraq and to button-up their in progress oil contracts with their financial Partner Saddam.

Hoping to profit from lucrative commercial contracts in Iraq, France has called for an easing of U.N. and U.S. economic sanctions with a view toward the eventual conclusion/finalization of their joint business deals.

France developed Iraq's nuclear industry. (Israel subsequently destroyed it.) Today, many French companies have lucrative contracts with Saddam's regime. Oil giant Company TotalFinaElf is better positioned than any other foreign oil company, holding the rights to develop two gigantic Iraqi oil fields. If Saddam is overthrown, all these benefits may evaporate.

France has won/assumed the first place position among Iraq's preferred trading partners.

Iraq's best jet fighters were purchased from France. The Mirage F-1 is considered to be a state of the art strike-fighter capable of launching advanced missiles. Iraq is estimated to have 60 French F-1 fighters. This begs the question "does France continue to have $rich$ maintenance and "parts" contracts for these Warplanes?"

Another Version: France supplied Iraq with sophisticated weaponry, including Mirage F1 fighter-bombers, Super Etendard aircraft equipped with Exocet anti-ship missiles, and equipment to improve the accuracy and range of Scud missiles. The sales are estimated at $20 billion.

@ France provided Iraq with a light-water Nuclear Reactor, Osirak, which was specifically designed to be unsuitable for the production of plutonium for a bomb. What really happened: The centerpiece of this effort was a French-built
Osirak-type nuclear reactor now turning out plutonium at Tuwaitah. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Osirak



§ In the New York Post, admittedly not a bastion of journalistic restraint, an editorial called for a French boycott. The paper even published a photo of a Normandy cemetery and pointed out that while Americans had died defending France against Hitler and the Nazis, today's French government clearly have a short memory. The French resented this but had little footing for their misplaced resentment.

France has long served as Iraq's principal European supplier, shipping in everything from Peugeot minibuses to Alcatel communications equipment. It bitterly denounced air attacks by U.S. and British warplanes against Iraqi targets last month (February). After reluctantly backing few aspects of the American "smart sanctions" plan, France has experienced severe commercial retaliation and seen its trade with Iraq cut in half over the last six months. Here are a few photos of French President J. Chirac with Saddam:

· Saddam Hussein made his first and only visit to a western capital. At a Paris airport, Chirac called Hussein his "personal friend." Hussein agreed to sell France huge quantities of oil.

France, Iraq's largest western trade partner, had 81 companies housed at the recent Baghdad International Trade Fair. The USA had none. Significantly, Iraq's former adversaries Saudi Arabia and Iran both had large pavilions.

Another Version: At the 35th annual Baghdad international trade fair in November 2002, France was represented by 81 firms. Saddam Hussein gave the French and Germans priority in entering the Iraqi market. Regarding the Germans, this commercial priority was granted as a result of "the firm positive stand of Germany in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq by the U.S," according to Al-Iraq, a government-run newspaper. "The importance of this fair is that it is a clear message that despite the risk of bombing, all these companies and all these countries still believe in peace," said Jihad Feghali, the managing Director of France's Nutris Company. The sanctions committee at the U.N. that reviews contracts between Iraq and international companies is constantly delaying and holding up Feghali contracts for review of dual-usage i.e. military value.

A report about Chirac's attempt to return to the premiership, the New York Times reported that the French official "has said many times that he is a personal friend of Saddam Hussein of Iraq."

Iranians referred to Chirac as "Shah-Iraq" and Israelis spoke of the Osirak reactor as "O-Chirac."

Iraq's best jet fighter was purchased from France. The Mirage F-1 is considered to be a state of the art strike-fighter capable of launching advanced missiles. France has sold over 700 Mirage F-1 fighters to over 11 nations. Iraq is estimated to have 60 F-1 fighters in its air force inventory.(MaxNews.com February, 2003)
 
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SavedByGrace3

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(cont)
The U.S. is currently considering pulling out hundreds of thousands of its U.S. military personnel and closing bases in France & Germany. These military bases are seen as largely bolstering those economies which are both fundamentally in distress. Hundreds of small villages in France and Germany are 100% dependent on U.S. Servicemen & women's economic contributions.

U.S. fires warning shot at France - /From BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The United States has fired a warning shot across the bows of France, the leading critic of its Iraq policy, saying it could view any French veto of a new U.N. resolution authorizing force as "very unfriendly".

Prior to the 1990 UN arms embargo, Iraq was free to purchase arms wherever it pleased and the war with Iran did anything but put-off suppliers. France was Iraq's major supplier and their sales included Scud and Exocet missiles.

U.S. Senators are considering Import Trade Sanctions against France (including their Bottled Water, Wine & Cheese which make up the majority of French imports into the USA). Americans say "who cares" - NCY tap water, Wisconsin Cheese and California Wines are all cheaper, better and U.S. citizens go further by saying they cancemsored by did---- this is a Christian forum!. These French imports are estimated to be $900 Million.

In contrast, U.S. EXPORTS TO FRANCE Include: - U.S. industrial chemicals, commercial aircraft and engines, electronic components, telecommunications, computer software, computers and peripherals, analytical and scientific instrumentation, medical instruments and supplies, broadcasting equipment, and programming and are estimated at $47 Billion. France would suffer greatly from a U.S. boycott. The U.S. would not miss French imports. Here is a complete list of strategic products France imports from the U.S. Many are unavailable from other French Global trading partners. The products in "blue" below are considered as strategic requirements for France and considered unavailable elsewhere, as they are unique to the U.S.
1. Aerospace/Defense

2. Agricultural Equipment

3. Aircraft & Parts

4. Automotive/ Transportation Equipment

5. Business Development

6. Chemical Products

7. Computers, Software, and Telecommunications

8. Construction/Public Works/ Engineering

9. Consumer Goods

10. Electronics and Automation

11. Energy/ Environment

12. Entertainment

13. Food and Beverage

14. Franchise

15. Industrial Equipment

16. Media

17. Medical/Pharmaceutical/ Biotechnology

18. Packaging and Logistics

19. Plastics

20. Security Equipment

21. Services

22. Telecommunications Services/ Equipment

23. Textile/ Apparel


French oil Company TotalFinaElf was given a highly favorable deal on oil exploration rights in Iraq as part of an effort by Baghdad to buy allies against the United States.

Iraq's Trade Ministry announced on that it would stop giving preferential treatment to France if France supported Bush.

France & the US, the two nations do some $50 billion in annual trade, anger and frustration over differing positions about the conflict with Iraq threaten to affect this longtime friendship - which continues to be a one-way street. The French are viewed as turn-coats by many Americans, especially Sr. citizens and the baby boomers. There have been suggestions that French fries be renamed "freedom fries."

America is imposing additional economic sanctions against Iraq -- sanctions that will no doubt be repealed after the invasion, these sanctions have allowed France to profit in Iraq. While the U.S. and England refuse trade to Iraq, this trade deficit/void has been filled, primarily by France.

France has a failing or faltering economy and has strong economic interest in Iraq. France's GDP growth rate is expected to be as little as .9% in 2003. (Time Magazine, January 27. 2003) To put that in perspective during the worst of the recent U.S. recessions our GDP growth never fell below 3%.

The German equivalent to Colin Powell, U.S. Secretary Of State, likened U.S. President G. W. Bush to Adolph Hitler.

It is common knowledge that Iraq's troops will use French manufactured armaments against the U.S., British, Spanish and other U.N. allies in the near future.

Iraq reportedly still owes Russia over $4 billion (U.S.) from arms trades. Iraq has nearly 200 Russian-made jet fighters including MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25, Sukhoi SU-22 and Sukhoi SU-25 interceptors.

The Germans are not innocent in this either, apparently they make the electronics used to build Iraq's scud missiles.
Economically, French ties with Iraq have been a costly disaster.

After helping Saddam Hussein build airports, factories and weapons, France is saddled with $4 billion in unpaid bills.

France helped arm a power that it later had to fight.

French diplomacy with Iraq has yielded scant results.

In 1994, when American troops were rushed to the region after Iraq massed two divisions of Republican Guards near the Kuwaiti border, French Defense Minister Francois Leotard came to Iraq's defense. He said Iraq had not violated any U.N. resolutions, and he accused the United States of playing election-year politics.

When Chirac became president, he followed his avowed model, General de Gaulle, to promote Gaulist power against U.S. power and support for Arab nations against Israel.

In 1996 Chirac delivered a speech at Cairo University where he forwarded France as an alternative to the U.S. as Middle East peace broker.
Chirac said Arabs would benefit from the change because the U.S. was to pro-Israeli.

In 1995, France reopened its embassy in Baghdad at the charg' d'affaires level.

In 1998, when the U.N. arms inspection effort in Iraq was collapsing, the French and Russians worked to head off an American attack. France denounced an American-British operation when it was staged.

France's best friends in the Middle East are Syria, Iraq and Iran. These are three of seven nations the U.S. lists as state sponsors of international terrorism.

While anti-war personalities claim the U.S. wants war for oil, France may want no war for oil.

In December 1996, the Jerusalem Post quoted Iraq's Oil Minister Amir Rasheed as saying: "'Friendly countries who have supported us, like France and Russia, will certainly be given priority" when the lucrative contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq are awarded after the oil embargo is lifted.

In December 1996, the London Mail reported that Western intelligence services had learned French companies had signed multi-million dollar contracts to help rearm Iraq, among other things, in exchange for oil.

On February 14, 2003, The Irish Examiner reported that Richard Perle, a former U.S. Assistant Secretary of Defense, said the French anti-war stance was driven by economic interests. French state controlled oil giant TotalFinaElf has exclusive exploration contracts worth $60 billion to $75 billion to develop the massive Majnoon and Bin Umar oilfields in southern Iraq, he said. Perle said oil experts who had analyzed the deal described it as "extraordinarily lopsided" in favor of the French company.


The Reasonably incomplete Military History of France

Gallic Wars (58 - 52 bc). - Lost
Hundred Years War (1336-1565) - Lost
War of Devolution I (1667 - 1668) - Lost.
War of Devolution II (1667 - 1668) - France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots.
Thirty Years War - France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually all other participants started ignoring her.
War of Devolution II (1667 - 1668) - Tied.
The Dutch War (1652-1654) - Tied.
War of the Augsburg League (1689 - 1697), Lost
King William's War or The Nine Years War 1689-1697, Lost
French and Indian War - (1755 - 1760) Lost, but claimed as a tie.
The Seven Years War (1756 - 1763) Lost
War of the Spanish Succession (1702 - 1713) - Lost.
American Revolution (1775 - 1783) In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a ½ win even though the English colonists saw far more action. France only wins when America does the fighting."
French Revolution (1775 - 1783) - ½ Win, primarily due the fact that the only opponent was also French. It took France 8 years to beat themselves....>>>>LOL ROFL<<<
The Napoleonic Wars (1799 - 1815) - Lost
The Franco-Prussian War (1870 - 1871) - Lost.
World War I - A Self-proclaimed Tie on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States and the Allies.
World War II - Lost. Nazi conquered France was liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the lyrics for the Nazi-revised German National anthem "Deutschland Deutschland Uber Alles." American children fathered by U.S. Soldiers in the 30's and 40's raises the IQ for the French nation substantially. Eisenhower & Churchill view De Gaulle's WWII Armies contributions as inconsequential.
War in Indochina - Lost. French forces fain sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu.
Algerian Rebellion - Lost
 
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JohnR7

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Today at 07:42 AM Dopeuter said this in Post #15 I think that to many Americans are to self-centred and that’s why they are willing to obliterate instead of liberate.&nbsp;

Self centered? Maybe

James 4:1-2
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? [2] You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.

Jesus said blessed are the peacemakers. He clearly taught us that we are to walk in love, one for another. We are to win our enemy through love.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Today at 10:08 AM datan said this in Post #25

if we are officially into country bashing, shall I dig up all the dirt on America?

You can... just don't do it in Europe. You will likely be digging up the body of an American Serviceman sent there to drive out the invaders.
 
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Today at 02:54 PM didaskalos said this

Recall the popular French Post World War II quote: "Nous n'oublions pas" {We Will Never Forget} - Seems the French Government has forgotten the ultimate sacrifices the US, British, and Canadian Soldiers made during June 1944 on the Beaches of Normandy.

Bad logic. Simply because the allies aided France in the past does not mean France must give complete support to any and all actions taken by any one of those allies.

Today at 02:54 PM didaskalos said this

"Going to War without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. You're merely leaving behind a lot of noisy, worthless baggage."- From an American representative to Canada's CBC.

"FOR SALE: Thousands French WWII Military Rifles - Like New, Never fired, only dropped once".

Ripley's: The smallest book in the world "The book of French Military Heroes".

Ah, insults. That'll concince people America is right. :rolleyes:

Today at 02:54 PM didaskalos said this
Hoping to profit from lucrative commercial contracts in Iraq, France has called for an easing of U.N. and U.S. economic sanctions with a view toward the eventual conclusion/finalization of their joint business deals.

The implication then, is that only France is acting according to their own best interests in this situation. Simply untrue.

Today at 02:54 PM didaskalos said this
France developed Iraq's nuclear industry. (Israel subsequently destroyed it.) Today, many French companies have lucrative contracts with Saddam's regime. Oil giant Company TotalFinaElf is better positioned than any other foreign oil company, holding the rights to develop two gigantic Iraqi oil fields. If Saddam is overthrown, all these benefits may evaporate.

And? America helped develop Iraq's chemical and biological weapons industry. We can't prove Iraq has nuclear weapons, but most Americans agree that they have chemical and biological ones.
 
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Dopeuter

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If not for the US and the way they think, the French would be speaking German and the Germans would be calling France East Germany. I am afraid you are missing some very important facts of US, European, and World history. (The US is the best thing to happen to the world since Jesus Christ!)


<B>didaskalos, I do know my history quite well mate and in my opinion , America wouldn’t even have won her independence from Britain if it wasn’t for the French. Which came first , France liberating America or America liberating France???? Hence the statue of liberty. </B>

<B>I also would like to remind you that it was the French that gave America her independence and when Hitler came along, America didn’t do a single thing mate, in fact they sat back and watched Hitler invade France and didn’t lift a single finger. Maybe you should brush up on your history mate because I happen to disagree with America being willing to help France at all in the second world war, they actually sat back and watched Hitler invade and they did nothing until Hitler was stuffed and over expanded and then they just came and took what they wanted. That is the only reason they are great in today’s world, because they stood back in the second world war (were Europe was concerned) and then came in after every other country had lost there powerful armies. Very shrewd work by the old US of A I must say but my point hear is maybe it is you that needs to not take such a bias view of your history.. It was the French that gave you your independence and yet you guys sat back and watched Hitler walk all over the French???? I can’t understand why you have such a shore opinion, you seem to have missed anything that shows Americas selfishness.</B>

It is not so much that Americans are scratching their heads about the lack of gratitude... it is just that we are tired of being the only ones who are concerning about our needs. We look out for everyone else and the rest of the world just enjoys the ride until we need something... then they get all excited. Kind of like spoiled children.

You have a lot to say mate and I do find it interesting. I would have to disagree with a lot of what you say but you do make your point well. I know my history better than any other subject and I can tell you that your views on Americas greatness is fairly naive in my opinion.

For example, I am Australian (not that I am proud of that at the moment) and we have been in almost every war since the boar war and we have always been there for you guys and the British. We may be a small country but we have done heaps if we look at precapitar. We are tiered of fighting British and American wars and dieing for you. I find your opinion of America being the only ones in the world to do anything offensive in light of so much done by my country and many others over the last 100 yrs.

I find your opinions very informative thou, even thou it is a little one sided.&nbsp;




&nbsp;
 
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SavedByGrace3

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>>>
quote:
For example, I am Australian (not that I am proud of that at the moment) and we have been in almost every war since the boar war and we have always been there for you guys and the British. We may be a small country but we have done heaps if we look at precapitar. We are tiered of fighting British and American wars and dieing for you. I find your opinion of America being the only ones in the world to do anything offensive in light of so much done by my country and many others over the last 100 yrs.

I find your opinions very informative thou, even thou it is a little one sided.

<<<


Well said my Ausi friend.
Just to smooth some things over... Americans have always considered Australia to be a very good friend and strong allie. Let someone decide to start a ruckus with you and see where America stands!

We are just a little miffed at France at the moment. These things are like "family discussions between friendly nations". We disagree on issues like this, but when push comes to shove we always come to each others aid. (well most of the time). Next year we are likely to be vacationing in Paris again.

9/11 really knocked most Americans for a loop. We have always been pretty save and secure from the rest of the worlds problems/wars. Most, and I mean 99%, Americans just want to stay home, go to work, take care of out families, and mind our own business. 9/11 was a wake up call for Americans. Suddenly any nutcase with the will to do so can cause untold damage to us, and we do not like it. So many Americans view this war thing with 9/11 in the back of their mind. They are serious when they say to Bush "do whatever it takes to prevent this kind of thing from happening again." Since we have a fairly competent military, and since we seem to be the only one who can, we are terrorist hunting.

Anyways... I really did not intend to get into this discussion, but having seen firsthand the sacrifices Americans have made, it strikes a raw nerve.

Peace
 
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coastie

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Today at 03:39 AM didaskalos said this in Post #9


You seem to be suffering from a number of common missconceptions.
1. The USA (nor any other country) is a true democracy. We are a democratic republic. We elect leaders via a democratic process, and then allow them to make decisions about everything from taxes to war.
2. The UN is certainly not a democratic institution. A demoncratic institution certainly would not allow a single nation to veto a issue that was supported by the majority.
3. It is within the UN charter to declare pre-emptive wars of self defense... which is what the US and others are doing.
4. The war against IRAQ is about to be waged because of IRAQ's failure to disarm in accordance with UN resolution 1441.
5. IRAQ is in this fix as a direct result of it's continued use of war against it's neighbors, the gassing of it's own people, and it's weapons of mass destruction, and it's support of terrorism.

BTW, I am personally against the war given the circumstances. But it is within the president's right to do so.

C.

Excellent post! Nothing really needs to be added to this.

Didaskalos is against the war, but he still doesn't delegitimize it with deceitful hair splitting legalities.

The war IS legally (and in my and some Muslim leaders' opinions, morally) justified, no matter which facts anyone twists beyond recognition.
 
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My Higher Self

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Today at 09:05 AM Dopeuter said this in Post #18

I suppose we could start by working with the UN instead of blackmailing them. If the UN were aloud to deal with Iraq on an international level I believe that we could disarm him and remove him once we have a democratically method of dealing with it instead Wyatt coming out and deciding he is the judge and jury.

Is this the same UN that continues to let Iraq not meet the disarmament deadlines?&nbsp;Great, so we'll ask Saddam to step down for the next 20 years...good plan.

Today at 09:05 AM Dopeuter said this in Post #18

MHS, It needs to be a UN supported action and without the UN it simply looks no better than an invasion against the law.

Why?! Why is it that Iraq can have a complete and total disregard for the UN and its bidding but when the US does it, now its something bad. You either hold everyone to the same standard, or you dont' have one.

Today at 09:05 AM Dopeuter said this in Post #18

as for America using a bomb the hell out of them policy, I suppose I get that from decades of watching how America conducts themselves in wars like Vietnam&nbsp; (destroying VC villages)


Oh, you mean the VC villages where enemy soldiers were hidden and protected? Or did you mean the ones where the women were approaching soldiers with bicycle&nbsp;bombs? Or the ones where children passed out exploding cans of soda?&nbsp;It wasn't general US policy. We didn't send in fighter bombers to level civilian cities that had no participation in the war. Just because you are a non-combatant doesn't necessarily preclude you from being a military target. If you manufacture weapons for the war cause, you&nbsp;might get&nbsp;bombed...that's something you have to accept if you take that job. I work for a&nbsp;government contractor, and I realize that makes me a potential&nbsp;target to my countries enemies.&nbsp;

Today at 09:05 AM Dopeuter said this in Post #18&nbsp;

and all those explosives in all the US movies.

Nice...did you just compare real life to the movies? Haha. You must have a good grip on reality.

Today at 09:05 AM Dopeuter said this in Post #18

Also don’t forget that the US dropped another bomb on Nagasaki 3 days after killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in Hiroshima. 3 days later they drop another one killing another few hundred thousand civilians.


I covered this lapse of sanity already. No, I didn't specifically mention anything other than Hiroshima, but I made the point.

&nbsp;
Today at 09:05 AM Dopeuter said this in Post #18

MHS, I had to LOL at your fast ability to blow up armoury. That wouldn’t surprise me one little bit , coming from an American :D ;)

After reading your post, I could see why you find this funny, but seriously, it doesn't take much to drag your equipment into the desert slap some plastic explosives on it and be done with it. Its not rocket science.&nbsp;

Today at 09:05 AM Dopeuter said this in Post #18

with UN support , we could include preparing a group within Iraq (Iraqi's) to overthrow there own government and replace it with the government of there own choice or we could have a UN coalition instead of just a coalition of those willing to brake UN laws.


Sure we could...and&nbsp;the UN&nbsp;could make em disarm within a reasonable amout of time too right?! Ha&nbsp;
 
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datan

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The war IS legally (and in my and some Muslim leaders' opinions, morally) justified, no matter which facts anyone twists beyond recognition.

how can you claim that people are twisting facts when Kofi Annan, the United Nations Secretary General himself says this:

If the United States and others would go outside the council and take military action, it will not be in comformity with the charter.
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/24hour/world/story/800818p-5708823c.html
 
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coastie

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If the United States and others would go outside the council and take military action, it will not be in comformity with the charter.

He's grasping at straws. The US doesn't need permission to act within it's own interests, and protect the nations that are threatened by Sadam and his regime.
 
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datan

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He's grasping at straws. The US doesn't need permission to act within it's own interests, and protect the nations that are threatened by Sadam and his regime.

Oh, but it does. Its a signatory to the United Nations Charter. It helped to craft those very terms. Ain't life a(I think I have asked you not to do this)when your words come back to bite you?

Let me put it this way: if the US decides to act outside the UN Charter, on what basis is the US going after Iraq? UN resolutions? But isn't the US acting outside the UN charter? What moral authority does it have for going after a country which is violating UN resolutions when it has just decided to do away with the UN charter?


(Did you get that from Bush's speech? Well, don't believe everything he tells you.)
 
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Dopeuter

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9/11 really knocked most Americans for a loop. We have always been pretty save and secure from the rest of the worlds problems/wars. Most, and I mean 99%, Americans just want to stay home, go to work, take care of out families, and mind our own business. 9/11 was a wake up call for Americans. Suddenly any nutcase with the will to do so can cause untold damage to us, and we do not like it. So many Americans view this war thing with 9/11 in the back of their mind. They are serious when they say to Bush "do whatever it takes to prevent this kind of thing from happening again." Since we have a fairly competent military, and since we seem to be the only one who can, we are terrorist hunting.


I do understand this and I was all for tracking down these terrorists, especially&nbsp;along with&nbsp;the Bali bombing were I got a little taste of what you are talking about hear as I knew a few people involved in that. I am very a wear of the necessary war on terrorism supported by the UN. I think my main problem hear is that diverting a war towards Iraq is not my idea of fighting terrorism??? I see that it will pour fuel on the fire as far as the world hating Americans go. Have you ever actually wondered what it is that makes a lot of the world hate Americans and yet, Americans scratch there heads and say, “but we are great people, we only do good to the world”. Have you ever really looked at that &nbsp;because it seems to be something that Americans are finding very hard to understand. I am all for this war on terrorists mate but this diversion toward Iraq seems to have alteria motives and isn’t a part of the war on terrorists at all in my opinion.

This diversion has completely dismantled the UN and provoked terrorism. If this war on Iraq is because of terrorism and that is it’s only motive , then we can expect Iran to be next (even thou it should have been first) and then we will go to Syria and Lebanon and on and on.

I really believe this could have been handled a lot better if president Bush was wiser because this push to disarm and remove Sadam should have been pushed diplomatically at the UN by Bush “first” (without all the wartalk) and from there the UN could have moved on Iraq.
Just to smooth some things over... Americans have always considered Australia to be a very good friend and strong allied. Let someone decide to start a ruckus with you and see where America stands!
I hope you are right because we have a lot of our force over in Iraq already even though the real terrorist war is&nbsp;at our back&nbsp;door with Indonesia and malasian terrorists just looking to get at us. After we attack Iraq, our back door is left wide open and our military has warned our PM but he has still given our troops to you&nbsp;to invade&nbsp;Iraq and left us vulnerable so I hope you guys can live up to your help in WW2 because we are going to need it mate.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I hope you are right because we have a lot of our force over in Iraq already even though the real terrorist war is at our back door with Indonesia and malasian terrorists just looking to get at us. After we attack Iraq, our back door is left wide open and our military has warned our PM but he has still given our troops to you to invade Iraq and left us vulnerable so I hope you guys can live up to your help in WW2 because we are going to need it mate.
You have to believe that America is in this for the long haul. Terrorism has been winked at long enough, and responsible nations have decided to do something about it. There is the theory that it is weakness that invites war. Any nation who appears weak can expect a local bully to come and try to take their lunch money. This is why it is important for an institution such as the UN to do something when the bully starts pushing people around. It is much like a school teacher who refuses to protect the smaller kids from the schoolyard bully. If the teacher does nothing, then you find a bigger kid to protect you. In this case the bigger kid is the US, and the bully is the guy invading his neighbors and gassing his own people.
Terrorism can only survive if the host countries allow it to exist within their borders. If the host countries do not take matters in hand, then do not surprized if someone else does. If there is blame to be passed out, then it should be directed at the countries that host these groups and wink at it.
BTW, the US is already getting involved in Indonesia. We are helping the local govenment root out the bad guys. These are the same bums who decided to start killing American Missionaries(dangerous people those missionaries!).
But anyways.... this is a pretty hot topic around the states, so don't be surprized if you get some pretty frank responses regarding this. Thanks for your frankness and understanding. It is nothing personal toward you... people are just venting I think.
:wave:
 
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paulewog

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little thing - I agree that we didn't deal with Korea very well.

I also disagree about Iraq not having nukes - if he doesn't, why doesn't he let us in and see.

If he does, we should go in and see.

If he doesn't, we should go in and make sure. Doesn't that make sense? A police will get really up tight about someoen that pretends to have a gun, because they know what that means.
 
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Dopeuter

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&nbsp;
Sure we could...and the UN could make em disarm within a reasonable amount of time too right?! Ha

Yes MHS, I believe that if Bush went to the UN and went through more determined diplomatic efforts in the beginning of his crusade against Iraq (without all the gunho war talk) the UN would have stood together and caused Iraq to disarm and even remove Sadam but through a UN effort. I think Bush has been very gunho about all of this and that has made the UN uncomfortable from the beginning.

I honestly believe that if Bush was wiser , he could have gone to the UN properly and democratically instead of like a bull out of a gate speaking war. I believe it would have taken longer but hey, I doubt that Sadam has weapons of mass destructions that he is going to be able to use under strong UN restrictions and sanctions and the working towards the removal of Sadam through UN law and US backing with Bush’s diplomatic efforts in the UN council but this go it alone thing has destabilised the whole world and caused the UN to become totally invalid.

I think Bush has either got an alteria motive or he is a fool. With Rumsfeld next to him, I defiantly see an alteria motive besides a war on terrorism.


&nbsp;
Any nation who appears weak can expect a local bully to come and try to take their lunch money. This is why it is important for an institution such as the UN to do something when the bully starts pushing people around. It is much like a school teacher who refuses to protect the smaller kids from the schoolyard bully. If the teacher does nothing, then you find a bigger kid to protect you. In this case the bigger kid is the US, and the bully is the guy invading his neighbors and gassing his own people.
Didaskalos, I like your analogy accept it really only works to a certain point . Once the big kid I get to back me goes to far and wants to kill the bully and brake every law doing it, I would have to think to myself, Hmmm, who is worse hear?? The bully or my big mate that is willing to kill this poor mongrel. It is a catch 22 see, if the big kid just wanted to stick up for me and defend me, then great stuff mate but once my big mate goes too far , then , as much as he is my mate, I don’t think I would be trusting him as a justified person??? I don’t know if you see what I am saying , I am trying to say, “don’t let bush take away who America is, he is going way to far“.

I hope we can all see our way throu this and hold our worlds sanity together and keep the kind of world we grew up in for our children to live in. I fear that is all over.

Thanks for your views didask, it helps me see the American Dilemma

Peace :wave:
 
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datan

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Today at 06:03 PM paulewog said this in Post #37


I also disagree about Iraq not having nukes - if he doesn't, why doesn't he let us in and see.

If he does, we should go in and see.

If he doesn't, we should go in and make sure. Doesn't that make sense? A police will get really up tight about someoen that pretends to have a gun, because they know what that means.


so which part of "UN inspectors roaming around Iraq" do you not understand???
 
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paulewog

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I understand completely about the UN inspectors.

But they haven't really found anything at all that we didn't know already.

Aren't the inspectors admitting that Iraw has weapons? That's what I had heard anyways :)
 
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