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  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right. For:

    James 1:22 . . . be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

    Luke 6:46 . . . why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

    Disobedience is one kind of delusion. But it's not the future, Antichrist delusion which will, for example, convince the world that Christ isn't in the flesh:

    2 John 1:7 ¶For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    That's right, in that neither knowledge of eschatology nor knowledge generally can, in themselves, make someone a good Christian.

    But they can help a Christian to keep the faith during the future Tribulation, and not be deceived:

    Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
    23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

    Mark 13:5 . . . Take heed lest any man deceive you . . .

    That is, the main reason the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything Christians alive at the time of the future Tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus Christ returns immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future Tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the Tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
     
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Amen.

    For Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so their ultimate fate will be worse than if they'd never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

    Some Christians say Hebrews 10:26-29 isn't for Christians. But note the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

    One way a Christian could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christian there's no way they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    They were mistaken if they thought 70 AD was the fulfillment of the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, which has never been fulfilled. But they weren't wrong in fleeing Jerusalem when it came under attack by the Romans. For Christians should flee any city at any time if they come under persecution there (Matthew 10:23).

    Note that Matthew 24:29 can refer literally to clouds blocking the light from the sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", that is, meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, that is, ones which will pass through the clouds and be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can mean the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere. Also, "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal, fallen-angelic "powers" who currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

    Also, the timing referred to in Matthew 24:29-31 was what Jesus Christ Himself taught about when His future, Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church will occur in relation to the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (cf. also 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

    Regarding Psalms 18, it can be poetic language to express God's deliverance of David from his enemies at some point in ancient times (Psalms 18 title). And even if one were to also apply parts of Psalms 18 to the future, verse 11 could refer to the clouds of Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Matthew 24:29, Revelation 1:7a), right before He appears to the world (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7b) and the rapture of Psalms 18:16 occurs (Matthew 24:31).
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The disciples and Judean Christians recognized the advance of the Roman armies as the unmistakable fulfillment of Christ's prediction in Matthew 24:15, and as the trigger to heed His warning to flee in Matthew 24:16. There was no confusion with His instructions in Matthew 10:23; had there been, they might have fled simply to another city, rather than to the mountains; but they did not. Their understanding of the Matthew 24:15 fulfillment, and consequent obedience of Christ's warning, saved their lives.
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no literal mention or implication of literal clouds in Matthew 24:29. Nor do clouds darken the sun or prevent the moon from giving light; both bodies continue to shine completely undarkened above clouds. Nor are meteors stars in any sense; "falling stars" is simply a colloquialism. The prophecy literally states "the stars shall fall from heaven" which does not restrict the numbers which fall; therefore all literal stars literally fall. Of course, if they're falling to earth, the first one to fall (presumably the sun) vaporizes earth long before it arrives, so it's uncertain as to where it and the remainder actually do fall.

    Most futurizing commentators relate "powers of the heavens" to physical cosmic forces.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All of the poetic language describing physical phenomena in Psalm 18, verse 11 and verse 16 included, is rendered in the past tense; therefore any futurization of those portions is unsupportable in scripture.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  7. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    People can either believe Christ, or they can believe Hal. Simple "exclusive or" choice.
     
  9. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  10. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    While many would interpret conditions in the tribulation as suggesting that believers will go thru it, it very well could be also that they are mentioned to show those that come to faith during that period that God indeed had proclaimed these events in advance to further prove that He is the one who tells the end from the beginning and confirms who He is to them. As Peter even said that even though he had physically seen Yeshua and was an eye witness, we had a more sure word of prophecy.

    2 Peter 1:16-19 (KJV) For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
    19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Whose words do you use to support your argument?
     
  12. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's what Jesus said:
    Matthew 24
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    Here's what Hal says:
    never was there an abomination or event that took place in the temple qualifying it as an 'abomination' standing in the 'holy place.

    Do you believe Jesus, or yourself?
     
  14. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Whatever it was, the Judean Christians saw it. That's the crux at the plate. No word games. Simple fulfillment.
    Fulfillment = sense.
    Unfulfillment = nonsense.
    Your turn to step up to the plate and get to the crux of the matter and speak up!
     
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    From many accounts, the temple caught fire and was taken apart for the gold and other precious metals and there never was time for an abomination to stand in the Holy of Holies (the holy place as reference by Yeshua in Mat 24). Jerusalem was under military siege and there never was Roman control of the temple area in time to set up any abomination before it's destruction.

    I sure believe Yeshua, and that the event hasn't happened yet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  17. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You playin' Scrabble or somethin'? Why didn't you tell me?
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Judean Christians saw it. They wouldn't have fled if they didn't.
     
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the crux of the matter remains that the details of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled.

    For example, the world won't experience the seven last plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the final stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled in our future. At the 1st vial, an awful sore will appear on those people who will have received the future Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all natural, surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, mankind will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future Tribulation.

    At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9), and the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together to fight YHWH God Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12), such as the vast armies of India and China, can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16), which is Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel. Once the armies of the east have gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there. That's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon. Instead, the armies will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH) returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

    At the 7th vial, right before Jesus Christ returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).
     
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