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- Thread starter True Science
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Everyone will go to hell for the sins they committed, and everyone will go to heaven for the sins Jesus took from us by washing away our sins, that is the believers sins. We have been justified by HIS grace that we should become heirs of eternal life. Notice, faith here is not even mentioned by Paul, only His favoring grace has saved us which is His mercy towards those He loves with a great love whom God made alive who were dead in trespasses against God.
That is God made us born again before we made any confession of faith.
God reprogrammed us to be His people and so then we responded in faith to God believing in Christ. Free gift, He just did this according to the council of His own will and not our will are we born of God.
Titus 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Graces of the Heirs of Grace
3 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
1 john 2
Their Spiritual State
12 I write to you, little children,
Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
Because you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
That is God made us born again before we made any confession of faith.
God reprogrammed us to be His people and so then we responded in faith to God believing in Christ. Free gift, He just did this according to the council of His own will and not our will are we born of God.
Titus 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Graces of the Heirs of Grace
3 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
1 john 2
Their Spiritual State
12 I write to you, little children,
Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
Because you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
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Marvin Knox
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You are obviously conflating the Kingdom blessings of our inheritance in Christ with eternal salvation vs. eternal damnation.
Your mistake is obvious for any student of scripture with an open mind to see.
Again - you conflate eternal salvation with the Kingdom blessings of being one who is saved.
You are right. You are using a stupid example to try to refute the eternal security of believers.
Thanks anyway. But I have already been blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ. In fact, I am seated with Him and reign with Him even now in the Heavens.
The same is the case for any true believer in Christ and His accomplishments on our behalf.
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nobdysfool
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What we're dealing with here is a Pharisee, whose attitude is "I know I'm saved but I'm not too sure about you". Not only has he demonstrated pitifully poor understanding of Scripture, He is unteachable, because he believes that the rest of us are not truly saved, and therefore cannot offer anything of worth in teaching. There is an old saying, attributed to Confucius that says, "man all wrapped up in self make very small package". In my estimation that's applicable to the situation at hand. We are taught that a contentious man, after a first and second warning, should be shunned (paraphrased). In the modern day vernacular, "Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!"
All those who teach that their salvation at any moment hangs by their works, or what they do, are belittling God's ability to save to the uttermost them who come to Christ in faith. The picture they paint of God is that of a cruel, harsh taskmaster, who is waiting for you to slip your toe over the line so He can chop it off. they ignore God's Grace, because they believe that they have to "prove" themselves to God by their works and obedience. Funny how the works are never clearly defined, other than to try and put Christians back under the 613 Laws detailed in the Law of Moses. That's why I declare them to be Pharisees, because they lay on gullible Christians burdens that they themselves cannot carry. But we're not supposed to notice that.
Their intent is to rob Christians of the joy of their salvation, and the peace of security within that salvation. They clearly do not understand what Christ did, and how that applies to us. Just one point: Christ fulfilled the law en toto, having paid the penalty for sin under the Law, which was physical death. Once the penalty is paid, there remains no further penalty for the one who paid the penalty, i.e. Christ. In faith, and by faith, we are united with Christ, so that what is true of Him is counted as true of us. Therefore, we are not under the Law of Moses any longer, but are under the Law of Grace. That means that if we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous, and our sins are already paid for. We repent for conscience' sake, to square our relationship with Him from our side, but our sins are covered by His Grace and not counted against us while we come to repentance.
The true child of God has nothing to fear, his sins are paid for and covered, and he is free to be led by the Holy Spirit into the works God has prepared for him to accomplish. Not all works, even as a Christian, are ordained by God, and the evidence is clear in the failed works done by those who wanted to "do something for Jesus", when they don't even know how to listen to His Spirit. And the "salvation can be lost" crowd, push for more and more works, not giving the new Christian time to listen, pray, and commune with God in order to do those things which God ordains, and produce lasting results because they are led by, and following that which the Lord has ordained for them to do.
All those who teach that their salvation at any moment hangs by their works, or what they do, are belittling God's ability to save to the uttermost them who come to Christ in faith. The picture they paint of God is that of a cruel, harsh taskmaster, who is waiting for you to slip your toe over the line so He can chop it off. they ignore God's Grace, because they believe that they have to "prove" themselves to God by their works and obedience. Funny how the works are never clearly defined, other than to try and put Christians back under the 613 Laws detailed in the Law of Moses. That's why I declare them to be Pharisees, because they lay on gullible Christians burdens that they themselves cannot carry. But we're not supposed to notice that.
Their intent is to rob Christians of the joy of their salvation, and the peace of security within that salvation. They clearly do not understand what Christ did, and how that applies to us. Just one point: Christ fulfilled the law en toto, having paid the penalty for sin under the Law, which was physical death. Once the penalty is paid, there remains no further penalty for the one who paid the penalty, i.e. Christ. In faith, and by faith, we are united with Christ, so that what is true of Him is counted as true of us. Therefore, we are not under the Law of Moses any longer, but are under the Law of Grace. That means that if we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous, and our sins are already paid for. We repent for conscience' sake, to square our relationship with Him from our side, but our sins are covered by His Grace and not counted against us while we come to repentance.
The true child of God has nothing to fear, his sins are paid for and covered, and he is free to be led by the Holy Spirit into the works God has prepared for him to accomplish. Not all works, even as a Christian, are ordained by God, and the evidence is clear in the failed works done by those who wanted to "do something for Jesus", when they don't even know how to listen to His Spirit. And the "salvation can be lost" crowd, push for more and more works, not giving the new Christian time to listen, pray, and commune with God in order to do those things which God ordains, and produce lasting results because they are led by, and following that which the Lord has ordained for them to do.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
Being active in this forum has really opened my eyes to the fact that it is perhaps true that the majority of those who call themselves Christians may not really be saved at all.
I suppose I knew that alread since the Kingdom of God was compared by our Lord to a monstrosity that was supposed to be a mustard plant and grew into a large tree. Christianity is now an organism so large that the birds of the air (always a type of evil in the scriptures) can perch in it's branches.
While it is true that we cannot know for sure who is saved and who is not - it seems fairly clear to me that there are a great many here in this forum who do not understand the gospel at all.
When I say that - I am making allowances for true Christians being perhaps of a Calvinistic belief system or an Arminian belief system and both still be saved. I believe that the gospel can be believed in a saving way for either group and even for some more diverse than those two are.
But what I see more and more here (particularly in the soteriology section of the forum) is a large group of people who not only are mixed up about the way people are saved - but actually believe a gospel that is the opposite of the gospel of grace.
I remember many years ago when Mother Theresa was being put forward for "sainthood". A major magazine ( I believe it was Newsweek) asked her why she had given her entire life to caring for the poor. Her reply was something to the effect that God had placed many good works here on the earth in order that we could "earn our way to Heaven".
I was shocked at the time and said that not only was that not correct but that it was, it seemed to me, the direct opposite of true saving faith in Christ.
But now, some 30 year later, I see more and more of what we would generally call evangelical protestants saying things that make Mother Theresa's misstatement seem almost tame by comparison.
As an evangelical Christian teacher who has always taken my theology quite seriously - it has been an amazing trip, watching the downward spiral away from the simple truth - in this day when men will not always endure sound doctrine.
While many of us here have some big differences for sure - we still need to fight the good fight together where we can because this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
I suppose I knew that alread since the Kingdom of God was compared by our Lord to a monstrosity that was supposed to be a mustard plant and grew into a large tree. Christianity is now an organism so large that the birds of the air (always a type of evil in the scriptures) can perch in it's branches.
While it is true that we cannot know for sure who is saved and who is not - it seems fairly clear to me that there are a great many here in this forum who do not understand the gospel at all.
When I say that - I am making allowances for true Christians being perhaps of a Calvinistic belief system or an Arminian belief system and both still be saved. I believe that the gospel can be believed in a saving way for either group and even for some more diverse than those two are.
But what I see more and more here (particularly in the soteriology section of the forum) is a large group of people who not only are mixed up about the way people are saved - but actually believe a gospel that is the opposite of the gospel of grace.
I remember many years ago when Mother Theresa was being put forward for "sainthood". A major magazine ( I believe it was Newsweek) asked her why she had given her entire life to caring for the poor. Her reply was something to the effect that God had placed many good works here on the earth in order that we could "earn our way to Heaven".
I was shocked at the time and said that not only was that not correct but that it was, it seemed to me, the direct opposite of true saving faith in Christ.
But now, some 30 year later, I see more and more of what we would generally call evangelical protestants saying things that make Mother Theresa's misstatement seem almost tame by comparison.
As an evangelical Christian teacher who has always taken my theology quite seriously - it has been an amazing trip, watching the downward spiral away from the simple truth - in this day when men will not always endure sound doctrine.
While many of us here have some big differences for sure - we still need to fight the good fight together where we can because this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
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Absolutely by grace are you saved through faith and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest anyone should boast.
Not having an understanding of the scriptures and the power of God, corrupted men add all sorts of diverse and strange doctrines.
Our ending up saved all begins with God's predestination choosing of us, working all things according to the council of His will, which is His calling of us to be saved according to His favoring mercy and grace, which so many reject. And you can post scripture after scripture and it is twisted or ignored or they say just keep drinking the kool-aid, which is a veiled judgement of death being pronounced by them on those who do know God and the power of His salvation to save us who believe.
Jesus word's they ignore, so obvious they add to and take away from what Christ says, meaning they are under God's curse.
Jesus says He plainly tells these Jews who are supposedly God's people the truth and they do not believe.
The reason they do not believe is they are not of God, so they do not listen-hearken to His words.
They are not of God because they are not born again by the Holy Spirit, they are spiritually dead in sin and do not recognize the Lord Jesus Christ because they are flesh and not spiritually alive. Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit and you must be born again in the Spirit of God to enter- see the kingdom of God.
The inspiration of their minds is devilish wisdom only regarding the genuine Jesus being the way, the truth and the light.
The Shepherd Knows His Sheep
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.
24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 I and My Father are one.”
My Father, who has given them to Me!, see they do not believe Christ regarding this truth which Paul here in Romans 8 gives detailed explanation. They prefer anything but this truth of His calling for those whom He predestined to be Christians which results in our glorification.
The reason they are His sheep is the Father has given them to Christ. Christ additionally confirms this in John 17 where Christ says He has power over all flesh to give eternal life to as many as God has given to Christ as believers in Christ.
17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It isChrist who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Not having an understanding of the scriptures and the power of God, corrupted men add all sorts of diverse and strange doctrines.
Our ending up saved all begins with God's predestination choosing of us, working all things according to the council of His will, which is His calling of us to be saved according to His favoring mercy and grace, which so many reject. And you can post scripture after scripture and it is twisted or ignored or they say just keep drinking the kool-aid, which is a veiled judgement of death being pronounced by them on those who do know God and the power of His salvation to save us who believe.
Jesus word's they ignore, so obvious they add to and take away from what Christ says, meaning they are under God's curse.
Jesus says He plainly tells these Jews who are supposedly God's people the truth and they do not believe.
The reason they do not believe is they are not of God, so they do not listen-hearken to His words.
They are not of God because they are not born again by the Holy Spirit, they are spiritually dead in sin and do not recognize the Lord Jesus Christ because they are flesh and not spiritually alive. Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit and you must be born again in the Spirit of God to enter- see the kingdom of God.
The inspiration of their minds is devilish wisdom only regarding the genuine Jesus being the way, the truth and the light.
The Shepherd Knows His Sheep
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.
24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 I and My Father are one.”
My Father, who has given them to Me!, see they do not believe Christ regarding this truth which Paul here in Romans 8 gives detailed explanation. They prefer anything but this truth of His calling for those whom He predestined to be Christians which results in our glorification.
The reason they are His sheep is the Father has given them to Christ. Christ additionally confirms this in John 17 where Christ says He has power over all flesh to give eternal life to as many as God has given to Christ as believers in Christ.
17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It isChrist who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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nobdysfool
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Marvin Knox
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If you cannot adequately defend your position - it is wise to withdraw from the conversation.
Wiser still would be to not start the conversation at all in the first place IMO.
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