[deleted]

[brotherjerry]

Romans 8.39 is pretty clear also.

Eternal security for the believer who trusts the work of the Lord Jesus, is hard to deny from Scripture.

Blessings.

Amen.

And for those that are too lazy to look it up

Romans 8:39 "nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[sdowney717]

Amen.

And for those that are too lazy to look it up

Romans 8:39 "nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Love chapter 8, our calling and election are major themes.

27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
All believers have been predestined, and all non believers if they die in their unbelief are not, else scripture here would be null.

As Peter also says, love it how we are pilgrims on this earth, our true home is not here.
1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims (the elect) of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and
sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
We are elect, chosen of God according to His foreknowing us beforehand, our destiny to be sanctified of the Holy Spirit, made Holy in the Truth, to be obedient and conformed to Christ, and have His blood applied shed for us so that we will be forgiven and go to be with Christ as we are adopted and purchased by His blood, and are now a part of the family of God, one of His beloved.

Due to His great Love for us he made us alive who were dead and seated us in heavenly places with Christ.

 

[sdowney717]

But things cannot be this simple since it is clear that even the most obedient believer sometimes does things that clearly cannot be the will of God and are, instead, products of the willful action of that believer: I suggest the evidence of real life shows that sometime our will can indeed be stronger than God's in terms of a determinative effect on what we do. I do not see how the John 6 passage rules out the possibility that the believer can "walk away". Yes, God's will is that this does not happen, but it is clear from the data of everyday life that God's will does not always prevail. So aren't you assuming that God's will necessarily prevails in the context of the John 6 passage?

Paul means what he says in Romans 8: we need to take positive action to obey the promptings of the Spirit in order to enter into life:

11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

You must balance and compare scripture with scripture.
So you must , else you're going to get a private interpretation , which is not good.

For example we read in Romans 8 further along this, note v30, for those He calls, all eventually get glorified.
I attribute this to the all powerful will of God working in the lives of those God has chosen beforehand, predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. When Paul is addressing a church in his epistles, he can not possibly know if some in the church are not born again, called and elected. He must need therefore warn all believers to remain faithful in the faith and he also tells us that some will depart the faith for demonic teaching. He is describing what is going on from a human point of view, as the divine mind of God we can not know, but we can have the mind of Christ. God has already from ancient times declared what is going to happen in the future, God can not deny Himself that He is God and God knows all things and also works all things according to the council of His own will as Ephesians 1 says.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Magesterial Reformation is semi-gnosticism. Thousands of years later we got this special knowledge of what the real truth was all along! Before us everyone was a self righteous workaholic who trusted in their own righteousness! NONSENSE. And it is more dangerous than real gnosticism because it has more of a semblance of orthodoxy.

What? What is the Magesterial Reformation?

Now you need to explain the difference between semi-gnostism and real gnostism.

And then the semblance of orthodoxy between the two.

Thanks.

 

[expos4ever]

You must balance and compare scripture with scripture.
So you must , else you're going to get a private interpretation , which is not good.

I agree with this as a principle (although I might quibble with the term 'private'), but I still think there is a problem. I do not pretend to fully understand what is going on at the end of Romans 8. But I think what is going on earlier is clear. Paul says this:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

I see no wiggle room here - the term "obligation" necessarily entails an exhortation to exercise your will. I do not see how there is any latitude about interpretation here.

I wholeheartedly agree with the principle of "scripture interprets scripture". But you can only push things so far. Do you believe that in your post you actually explained how we can read this text from the middle of Romans 8 without a role of human will being involved? The only way I imagine you could do that would be to so radically redefine the concept of "obligation" that all sorts of red lights should start flashing.

 

[brotherjerry]

True Science

Ignore the whole context? Really?

Lets see Paul was speaking about our victory in Jesus.
Romans 8:31-39 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us. He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not aslo with Him freely give us all things? Wh will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justified; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written 'FOR YORU SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED' But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Just how is citing Romans in reference to not being able to be taken from the Love of God in any way out of context? It's not. There is nothing, not even the angels (which Satan is one of) can remove us from the love of God.

this idea was first mentioned by Christ in John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

Ad hominem references are pointless. There is not one person on this forum that is a proponent of eternal security that will lay a claim that we can just sit back and "take it easy and relax". It is as silly of an argument as saying conditional security means you can go out and be a sinner all you want, but when you get old and near the end, give your money away and go to church and you will be OK and good to go.

What I find is that eternal security doctrine starts with the simple verses and still addresses apparent conflicts, those being some of the verses conditional security proponents use that talk about "enduring","perseverance", etc. And it fit Biblically. But conditional security proponents are unable to address the simple verses that clearly point to an eternal security without resorting to "special knowledge" or "special revelations" to just those people who are conditional security proponents. Or they rely upon words that are not in the Bible with the logic that just because the Bible does not say that such and such is true, then it must be true. Case in point, an example of anyone in the Bible that lost their salvation, or even one verse that says salvation is lost. Instead they rely upon omission to be confirmation...."It does not say that if you don't persevere you will lose your salvation, but it says those that do persevere will get salvation, so obviously then if you don't persevere you will lose salvation"....which is not what the Bible says, but by accepting that which is not written the theology of conditional salvation comes into existance.

 

[sdowney717]

I agree with this as a principle (although I might quibble with the term 'private'), but I still think there is a problem. I do not pretend to fully understand what is going on at the end of Romans 8. But I think what is going on earlier is clear. Paul says this:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

I see no wiggle room here - the term "obligation" necessarily entails an exhortation to exercise your will. I do not see how there is any latitude about interpretation here.

I wholeheartedly agree with the principle of "scripture interprets scripture". But you can only push things so far. Do you believe that in your post you actually explained how we can read this text from the middle of Romans 8 without a role of human will being involved? The only way I imagine you could do that would be to so radically redefine the concept of "obligation" that all sorts of red lights should start flashing.

HaHa, no of course not.
My point is those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. God has decreed in Himself that only Christ the Son to be the perfect one and only Begotten of the Father and we are sinners saved by His mercy and grace. So expect to make mistakes cause you can not be perfect, you are not God. This is just the way things are, this world we are currently on, we were like the others, following Satan, but we were not them since our destiny was not hell but heaven. For His own reasons God loved us with a great love and made us alive who were dead, and I am glad God chose to reveal His Son in me, the hope of glory.

God treats us who are saved as sons, so expect to be chastened, rebuked, disciplined by Him, this is part of the being conformed into the likeness of Christ, it is a process God makes all go through who are called to be in His family. And we live in an evil world system which is constantly tempting us and pulling us away from the Truth. And we have an enemy of our souls Satan, and Satan goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he can devour.

 

[Meowzltov]

I am not sure what you mean. I suspect (but only suspect) that you are saying that justification based on doing the law is only theoretically possible and that none, in fact, will achieve it.

If so, I think that view really does not work. Earlier in the same chapter, Paul says that eternal life is awarded based on what we do. Are you saying that is only theoretically true as well?

No competent writer would say "people will be justified by doing the law" or "people will get eternal life based on how they have lived" if, in fact, that writer believes this will never happen.

Paul means what he says when he says that faith justifies.

And he also means what he says when he says that how we live - "our good works" as it were - will be the "test criterion" for final justification. We have to accept all that Paul says. And it makes sense - the "good works" are the evidence that the faith is real.

Of course, perhaps I have entirely misunderstood your position.

Well, we are moving past the basics and into the fine print, which is fun.

I am of the belief that there is no such thing as faith alone. Faith alone is a fraud, it is dead. And works alone are futile. The only thing that is REAL is a working faith. Basically faith and faithfulness are two sides of the SAME COIN. In fact, in Hebrew there is only one word, Emunah, for both faith and faithfulness. SAME THING.

When we are initially justified, or what baptists call gettin' saved, we respond to God's grace with faith as well as with confession repentance and baptism -- this confession repentance and baptism are the only works that there really are time for. But initial justification is only the beginning of the journey.

Salvation is really an ongoing process. We must endure to the end to be ultimately saved. Salvation is essentially a walk with God that happens one day at a time, that has its ups and its downs.

First, we must strive to be obedient to God, for that is how we express our love for him. Second, God only forgives those sins for which we repent -- he therefore does not forgive future sins. Each time we sin again, we must go once more to him and ask for mercy and forgiveness, for the grace of his son Jesus Christ. So ongoing salvation involves two things:
1. Obedience to the law
2. Continued repentance for new sins.

This is the expression of that authentic "working faith" that I was telling you about.

 

[sdowney717]

Well, we are moving past the basics and into the fine print, which is fun.

I am of the belief that there is no such thing as faith alone. Faith alone is a fraud, it is dead. And works alone are futile. The only thing that is REAL is a working faith. Basically faith and faithfulness are two sides of the SAME COIN. In fact, in Hebrew there is only one word, Emunah, for both faith and faithfulness. SAME THING.

When we are initially justified, or what baptists call gettin' saved, we respond to God's grace with faith as well as with confession repentance and baptism -- this confession repentance and baptism are the only works that there really are time for. But initial justification is only the beginning of the journey.

Salvation is really an ongoing process. We must endure to the end to be ultimately saved. Salvation is essentially a walk with God that happens one day at a time, that has its ups and its downs.

First, we must strive to be obedient to God, for that is how we express our love for him. Second, God only forgives those sins for which we repent -- he therefore does not forgive future sins. Each time we sin again, we must go once more to him and ask for mercy and forgiveness, for the grace of his son Jesus Christ. So ongoing salvation involves two things:
1. Obedience to the law
2. Continued repentance for new sins.

This is the expression of that authentic "working faith" that I was telling you about.

Your walk is a walk with the Lord and He won't fail you if He has saved you, God gives to us eternal consolations and grace.

2 Corinthians 9
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written:

“He has dispersed abroad,
He has given to the poor;
His righteousness endures forever.”

10 Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, 11 while you are enriched in everything for all liberality, which causes thanksgiving through us to God. 12 For the administration of this service not only supplies the needs of the saints, but also is abounding through many thanksgivings to God, 13 while, through the proof of this ministry, they glorify God for the obedience of your confession to the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal sharing with them and all men, 14 and by their prayer for you, who long for you because of the exceeding grace of God in you. 15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

 

[Meowzltov]

Why have we been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise til the day of redemption then?

Our sin can take away the Holy Spirit that is our guarantee til the day of redemption?

Seals can be broken. There is no guarantee that we will have the Holy Spirit forever no matter how much sin we commit. In fact, Peter says there is a sin unto death, so what we do can cause spiritual death.

 

[sdowney717]

Seals can be broken. There is no guarantee that we will have the Holy Spirit forever no matter how much sin we commit. In fact, Peter says there is a sin unto death, so what we do can cause spiritual death.

John mentions a sin unto death. However consider Paul's mention of those who do not honor the Lord's table at communion, despising those who are poor by their actions and not discerning the body of Christ, saying some are weakly and sick and others have died (fallen asleep). Their deaths did not mean spiritual but a physical death.

1 John 3
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
By their actions such a person shows they have not the Spirit of Christ indwelling them. So this describes an unsaved person full of hatred. Even John uses the term 'brother' to describe this false unsaved person in some kind of fellowship relationship, perhaps in a church setting.

Sin unto death mentioned here
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

v18 qualifies what John says in v16 and 17. If you are born again, born of God your sins are forgiven for His name sake, so you do not have sin reigning over you, God declares them to have the righteousness of Christ. As Paul also teaches saying this in another way, reckon yourself dead to sin, but alive to Christ, since your dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. And since you're dead, sin can not reign over those who are born of God. I hope you can understand that Satan can not touch or influence you to lose your salvation.

So then this brother mentioned in the above verse who is sinning unto death, has not the Spirit of God within them. Same as the 1 John 3 verse about hatred == to a being a murderer. I suppose John is saying such a person is marked out for condemnation as Jude describes them. They have crept in secretly pretending to be sheep but are really wolves in sheep's clothing. John is saying don't even bother praying for such a person. John uses the term 'brother' again since they appear to be in the church, others would think of them as brothers, but they are wolves in sheep's clothing,

Jude
Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

v4 would be sins with the final culmination of their life a realized spiritual death. Don't even bother praying for such persons as they are marked out for destruction. Jude tells us the saints are to contend for the faith against these wolves in sheeps clothing. Not that saints turn into wolves.

 

[Meowzltov]

2 Corinthians 9
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.

Of course God is able to make all grace abound toward me. But it is dependent upon my continual going to him in repentence when I return to sin.

 

[sdowney717]

Of course God is able to make all grace abound toward me. But it is dependent upon my continual going to him in repentence when I return to sin.

If you belong to Him, then that is what you will do.

Romans 8:15New King James Version (NKJV)
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

 

[Meowzltov]

John mentions a sin unto death. However consider Paul's mention of those who do not honor the Lord's table at communion, despising those who are poor by their actions and not discerning the body of Christ, saying some are weakly and sick and others have died (fallen asleep). Their deaths did not mean spiritual but a physical death.

1 John 3
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
By their actions such a person shows they have not the Spirit of Christ indwelling them. So this describes an unsaved person full of hatred. Even John uses the term 'brother' to describe this false unsaved person in some kind of fellowship relationship, perhaps in a church setting.

Sin unto death mentioned here
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

v18 qualifies what John says in v16 and 17. If you are born again, born of God your sins are forgiven for His name sake, so you do not have sin reigning over you, God declares them to have the righteousness of Christ. As Paul also teaches saying this in another way, reckon yourself dead to sin, but alive to Christ, since your dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. And since you're dead, sin can not reign over those who are born of God. I hope you can understand that Satan can not touch or influence you to lose your salvation.

So then this brother mentioned in the above verse who is sinning unto death, has not the Spirit of God within them. Same as the 1 John 3 verse about hatred == to a being a murderer. I suppose John is saying such a person is marked out for condemnation as Jude describes them. They have crept in secretly pretending to be sheep but are really wolves in sheep's clothing. John is saying don't even bother praying for such a person. John uses the term 'brother' again since they appear to be in the church, others would think of them as brothers, but they are wolves in sheep's clothing,

Jude
Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

v4 would be sins with the final culmination of their life a realized spiritual death. Don't even bother praying for such persons as they are marked out for destruction. Jude tells us the saints are to contend for the faith against these wolves in sheeps clothing. Not that saints turn into wolves.

I certainly don't think that mortal sins are limited to eating the body and blood in an unworthy state.

John ALSO says that whoever says they don't sin deceived themself. Whatever your interpretation is MUST INCLUDE THIS.

 

[Meowzltov]

If you belong to Him, then that is what you will do.

Well, you would ThiNK so, but alas there are some who once belonged to him who choose to walk away. They are prodigal sons who have become DEAD.

 

[sdowney717]

Well, you would ThiNK so, but alas there are some who once belonged to him who choose to walk away. They are prodigal sons who have become DEAD.

The only prodigal son that matters as far as doctrine is concerned is the one in the scriptures, and he did return to the Father.

 

[brotherjerry]

Also realize Open Heart...salvation is not an ongoing process, but sanctification is. Salvation being an ongoing process is like saying getting pregnant is an ongoing process....you are either pregnant or you are not.

 

[Job8]

Of course God is able to make all grace abound toward me. But it is dependent upon my continual going to him in repentance when I return to sin.

If God's grace were dependent on how well we maintained our spiritual selves, then not ONE PERSON could ever be sure about anything. Of course, this is pure Catholic theology, which consigns everyone to Purgatory, and hopefully they get prayed out of Purgatory and into Heaven. Some even become "saints" through canonization!

God's grace -- according to Scripture -- is PURE GRACE. Which means that sinners deserve absolutely nothing, but instead receive an overabundance of blessings AND SALVATION from God PURELY ON THE MERITS OF CHRIST ALONE.

The Prodigal Son was mentioned above. He deserved absolutely nothing after his selfish and profligate behavior. If anyone "deserved" something, it was his older brother. Instead the Father lavished on this repentant sinner a tremendous amount purely because of who the father was, and with a father's love. It was not the repentance of this rascal which "earned" him all that grace. It was the character and heart of the father in receiving back the Prodigal.