Delay Slams Justice Kennedy

OhhJim

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Harpuia said:
Then again, they could impeach Delay after his melee and we'll all be happy.

I could go for that. Throw them all out. Although, since the judiciary have supposedly been a problem since 1800, why do we think a new justice will be better than the old justice.

It's just another case of "He who disagrees with me is an out-of-control activist". Plus DeLay is pandering to his constituency. Nothing unusual about that, I suppose, as long as you recognize that he is doing it.
 
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Harpuia

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OhhJim said:
It's just another case of "He who disagrees with me is an out-of-control activist". Plus DeLay is pandering to his constituency. Nothing unusual about that, I suppose, as long as you recognize that he is doing it.

Well, you gotta admit, the liberals have been doing that for years. Fine time the conservatives fight back and quit acting like doormats.
 
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OhhJim

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Harpuia said:
Well, you gotta admit, the liberals have been doing that for years. Fine time the conservatives fight back and quit acting like doormats.

Well, actually, I was hoping that once the Republicans got a majority, they would set about fixing problems and running the country, instead of doing the same kind of complaining they did in the 70's. Tom DeLay is an example of what's wrong with the GOP, and the sooner we quit defending politicians like him, the better.

Anyway, Kennedy was appointed by Reagan. Can Bush do better? I doubt it.

Interesting thing about Jefferson: He is idolized by most conservatives, yet his concept of what America should be (a nation of farmers, no corporations, virtually no military) is totally the opposite of what most conservatives believe. Is it possible that in the cases in which Jefferson disagreed with the judges of his time, they were the "conservatives", and he was the "liberal"? I should research it, but I'm not motivated.
 
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chalice_thunder

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From the article: One way would be for the House Judiciary Committee to investigate the clause in the Constitution that says "judges can serve as long as they serve with good behavior," [DeLay] said. "We want to define what good behavior means. And that's where you have to start."



Before taking aim at Kennedy or any other justice, DeLay really should look to his own petulant, childish (many of us consider it treasonous) behavior.
 
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tollytee

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OhhJim said:
Well, actually, I was hoping that once the Republicans got a majority, they would set about fixing problems and running the country, instead of doing the same kind of complaining they did in the 70's. Tom DeLay is an example of what's wrong with the GOP, and the sooner we quit defending politicians like him, the better.

Anyway, Kennedy was appointed by Reagan. Can Bush do better? I doubt it.

Interesting thing about Jefferson: He is idolized by most conservatives, yet his concept of what America should be (a nation of farmers, no corporations, virtually no military) is totally the opposite of what most conservatives believe. Is it possible that in the cases in which Jefferson disagreed with the judges of his time, they were the "conservatives", and he was the "liberal"? I should research it, but I'm not motivated.

I think any reasonable research on Tommy J. would prove you correct. Your observations on his political philosophies are also correct.

I wish the Democrats would take him into the Ethics Committe and let the chips fall where they may. If it 'outs' other Republican and Democrat shenanigans (sp?), great. We can clean all the crooks out. Reps and Dems. Then maybe we can get on with the business of improving America.
 
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tollytee

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OhhJim said:
Anyway, Kennedy was appointed by Reagan. Can Bush do better? I doubt it.

When all is said and done, the President doesn't really ever know what he/she is going to get when he/she appoints someone to the bench. ;)
 
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Voegelin

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tollytee said:
When all is said and done, the President doesn't really ever know what he/she is going to get when he/she appoints someone to the bench. ;)

Eisenhower said Brennen and Warren were the two biggest mistakes of his eight years in office.

The nature of the position draws individuals to substituting their own thoughts for the law. I can't recall any person who went from a philosopy which encroaches on the other branches and sees a Federal role for nearly everything to understanding the courts are not there to create law.

See Scalia and Kennedy on C-Span a few weeks ago?

Think when Scalia gets bored he baits Kennedy into appearing in public with him so he can bat him around as a cat plays with a dead mouse.

Kennedy had a rather difficult time under Scalia's cross examination explaining why he cited Zimbabwe law
 
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tollytee

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Voegelin said:
Eisenhower said Brennen and Warren were the two biggest mistakes of his eight years in office.

The nature of the position draws individuals to substituting their own thoughts for the law. I can't recall any person who went from a philosopy which encroaches on the other branches and sees a Federal role for nearly everything to understanding the courts are not there to create law.

See Scalia and Kennedy on C-Span a few weeks ago?

Think when Scalia gets bored he baits Kennedy into appearing in public with him so he can bat him around as a cat plays with a dead mouse.

Kennedy had a rather difficult time under Scalia's cross examination explaining why he cited Zimbabwe law

Scalia did the same to Breyer about a month ago on C-Span. Made Breyer look foolish.

Why wasn't there the same passion in defending Justice Thomas when Sen. Reid insulted his intelligence on national TV? Is there a double standard here?
 
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awesome liver

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i would like to point out that Kennedy's decision on the recent minor status and death row sentencing is one of the most "christian" in scope than most people are allowing themselves to admit:

"When a juvenile commits a heinous crime, the state can exact forfeiture of some of the most basic liberties ... but the state cannot extinguish his life and his potential to attain a mature understanding of his own humanity."
 
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Voegelin

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awesome liver said:
i would like to point out that Kennedy's decision on the recent minor status and death row sentencing is one of the most "christian" in scope than most people are allowing themselves to admit:

"When a juvenile commits a heinous crime, the state can exact forfeiture of some of the most basic liberties ... but the state cannot extinguish his life and his potential to attain a mature understanding of his own humanity."

The issue isn't whether a decision is "Christian" or not. The issue is if the court is usurping power. In this case, it was. In fact, the court over ruled its own ruling from a few years ago.

When the law is whatever 5 or more of 9 judges decides it should be on any given day, we have no rule of law. We have no constitution. We have a court which is out of control, which is subject to no checks and balances.

For those who are willing to accept usurpation of power because they agree with recent decisions, keep this in mind: The courts can as easily rule against you as for you. And you will have no redress. By your tolerance of judicial diktat law, you have disenfranchised not only your opposition but yourself.
 
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awesome liver

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Voegelin said:
The issue isn't whether a decision is "Christian" or not. The issue is if the court is usurping power. In this case, it was. In fact, the court over ruled its own ruling from a few years ago.

When the law is whatever 5 or more of 9 judges decides it should be on any given day, we have no rule of law. We have no constitution. We have a court which is out of control, which is subject to no checks and balances.

For those who are willing to accept usurpation of power because they agree with recent decisions, keep this in mind: The courts can as easily rule against you as for you. And you will have no redress. By your tolerance of judicial diktat law, you have disenfranchised not only your opposition but yourself.

if you read the whole entire decision, he mentions that the opinion of the international world has no weight to the decision but cites those decisions as valid reasons as other civilized nations sees them. most of the decision is a mix of science and societal norms.

my first post:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14047520#post14047520

and the original case by which no one now knows the name of:
roeper v. simmons
 
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Voegelin

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tollytee said:
Why wasn't there the same passion in defending Justice Thomas when Sen. Reid insulted his intelligence on national TV? Is there a double standard here?

That should not be tolerated anymore. Charles Schumer and other Democrats are claiming Justice Owens and Brown are "out of the mainstream". They are, respectively, on the Texas and California State Supreme Courts.

Yet Schumer praised Ruth Bader Ginsberg who, when she was an ACLU lawyer, adovated lowering the age of consent to 12. "Mainstream" America does not believe the age should be lowered to 12.

Republicans were not happy over Ginsberg's nomination. Aside from her ACLU history, she is probably the weakest legal scholar appointed to the court in the last half decade.But did they filibuster her? No. Clinton won the election (albeit with just 43% of the vote) and Republicans believe he had a right to have his nominee to SCOTUS get a vote.
 
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awesome liver

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Voegelin said:
That should not be tolerated anymore. Charles Schumer and other Democrats are claiming Justice Owens and Brown are "out of the mainstream". They are, respectively, on the Texas and California State Supreme Courts.

Yet Schumer praised Ruth Bader Ginsberg who, when she was an ACLU lawyer, adovated lowering the age of consent to 12. "Mainstream" America does not believe the age should be lowered to 12.

Republicans were not happy over Ginsberg's nomination. Aside from her ACLU history, she is probably the weakest legal scholar appointed to the court in the last half decade.But did they filibuster her? No. Clinton won the election (albeit with just 43% of the vote) and Republicans believe he had a right to have his nominee to SCOTUS get a vote.

and a majority of bush's nominees have seen very little resistence. there are only a handful of bush's nominees who've been not confirmed. as opposed to clinton, who had many, many more judges not confirmed.
 
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Voegelin

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awesome liver said:
if you read the whole entire decision, he mentions that the opinion of the international world has no weight to the decision but cites those decisions as valid reasons as other civilized nations sees them.

So why mention them if they have no bearing on his decision?

I'll tell you why. Because his opinion become precedent upon which activist judges and liberal layers can build. He already ignores the U.S. Constitution when it suits his purposes. He, and his allies, want foreign law to intrude upon American law because it is usually more in line with their thinking.

When Kennedy throws out foreign law he does so very selectively. He never mentions the machinations of foriegn law. How few other countries have the decades long process of appeals America does, or that, in many countries, the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove his or her innocence for instance.

What is wrong with letting the America people decide which sort of legal system they live under? What is wrong with only mentioning American law, the constitution and American stare decisis in opinions? Why should the opinion of a court in Zimbabwe or France be mentioned at all?

If Kennedy wishes to discuss foreign law, he is free to do so outside SCOTUS opinions.
 
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Doctrine1st

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Voegelin said:
That should not be tolerated anymore. Charles Schumer and other Democrats are claiming Justice Owens and Brown are "out of the mainstream". They are, respectively, on the Texas and California State Supreme Courts.

Yet Schumer praised Ruth Bader Ginsberg who, when she was an ACLU lawyer, adovated lowering the age of consent to 12. "Mainstream" America does not believe the age should be lowered to 12.

Republicans were not happy over Ginsberg's nomination. Aside from her ACLU history, she is probably the weakest legal scholar appointed to the court in the last half decade.But did they filibuster her? No. Clinton won the election (albeit with just 43% of the vote) and Republicans believe he had a right to have his nominee to SCOTUS get a vote.
Have you taken a look at why they feel Owens and Brown should not be confrimed?
 
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awesome liver

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Voegelin said:
So why mention them if they have no bearing on his decision?

I'll tell you why. Because his opinion become precedent upon which activist judges and liberal layers can build. He already ignores the U.S. Constitution when it suits his purposes. He, and his allies, want foreign law to intrude upon American law because it is usually more in line with their thinking.

When Kennedy throws out foreign law he does so very selectively. He never mentions the machinations of foriegn law. How few other countries have the decades long process of appeals America does, or that, in many countries, the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove his or her innocence for instance.

What is wrong with letting the America people decide which sort of legal system they live under? What is wrong with only mentioning American law, the constitution and American stare decisis in opinions? Why should the opinion of a court in Zimbabwe or France be mentioned at all?

If Kennedy wishes to discuss foreign law, he is free to do so outside SCOTUS opinions.
the supreme court does not base all of its decision based solely on precedent and the constitution. it never has. it has taken into account science, societal attitudes and even international law (especially in cases where it mentions british common law and on occasion, the magna carta). where do most countries derive their constitutions and judicial systems when molded after the west? the united states, u.k., or france. these three countries more than any other are intertwined in our histories and global reach and influence.

america is not ruled solely by american law. we also abide by international treaties and expect other countries to do so. a common tenent of international law is that you don't have to follow it cos it's not officially law, but more of a common courtesy out of respect for the next country. we don't obey them all but we follow most. and through this practice, we influence and are in turn, influenced by them.

the actual text of the final section:
Our determination that the death penalty is disproportionate punishment for offenders under 18 finds confirmation in the stark reality that the United States is the only country in the world that continues to give official sanction to the juvenile death penalty. This reality does not become controlling, for the task of interpreting the Eighth Amendment remains our responsibility. Yet at least from the time of the Court's decision in Trop, the Court has referred to the laws of other countries and to international authorities as instructive for its interpretation of the Eighth Amendment's prohibition of "cruel and unusual punishments." 356 U. S., at 102-103 (plurality opinion) ("The civilized nations of the world are in virtual unanimity that statelessness is not to be imposed as punishment for crime"); see also Atkins, supra, at 317, n. 21 (recognizing that "within the world community, the imposition of the death penalty for crimes committed by mentally retarded offenders is overwhelmingly disapproved"); Thompson, supra, at 830-831, and n. 31 (plurality opinion) (noting the abolition of the juvenile death penalty "by other nations that share our Anglo-American heritage, and by the leading members of the Western European community," and observing that "[w]e have previously recognized the relevance of the views of the international community in determining whether a punishment is cruel and unusual"); Enmund, supra, at 796-797, n. 22 (observing that "the doctrine of felony murder has been abolished in England and India, severely restricted in Canada and a number of other Commonwealth countries, and is unknown in continental Europe"); Coker, supra, at 596, n. 10 (plurality opinion) ("It is ... not irrelevant here that out of 60 major nations in the world surveyed in 1965, only 3 retained the death penalty for rape where death did not ensue").

As respondent and a number of amici emphasize, Article 37 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which every country in the world has ratified save for the United States and Somalia, contains an express prohibition on capital punishment for crimes committed
by juveniles under 18. United Nations Convention on
the Rights of the Child, Art. 37, Nov. 20, 1989, 1577
U. N. T. S. 3, 28 I. L. M. 1448, 1468-1470 (entered into force Sept. 2, 1990); Brief for Respondent 48; Brief for European Union et al. as Amici Curiae 12-13; Brief for President James Earl Carter, Jr., et al. as Amici Curiae 9; Brief for Former U. S. Diplomats Morton Abramowitz et al. as Amici Curiae 7; Brief for Human Rights Committee of the Bar of England and Wales et al. as Amici Curiae 13-14. No ratifying country has entered a reservation to the provision prohibiting the execution of juvenile offenders. Parallel prohibitions are contained in other significant international covenants. See ICCPR, Art. 6(5), 999 U. N. T. S., at 175 (prohibiting capital punishment for anyone under 18 at the time of offense) (signed and ratified by the United States subject to a reservation regarding Article 6(5), as noted, supra, at 13); American Convention on Human Rights: Pact of San José, Costa Rica, Art. 4(5), Nov. 22, 1969, 1144 U. N. T. S. 146 (entered into force July 19, 1978) (same); African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child, Art. 5(3), OAU Doc. CAB/LEG/
24.9/49 (1990) (entered into force Nov. 29, 1999) (same).

Respondent and his amici have submitted, and petitioner does not contest, that only seven countries other than the United States have executed juvenile offenders since 1990: Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Nigeria, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and China. Since then each of these countries has either abolished capital punishment for juveniles or made public disavowal of the practice. Brief for Respondent 49-50. In sum, it is fair to say that the United States now stands alone in a world that has turned its face against the juvenile death penalty.

Though the international covenants prohibiting the juvenile death penalty are of more recent date, it is instructive to note that the United Kingdom abolished the juvenile death penalty before these covenants came into being. The United Kingdom's experience bears particular relevance here in light of the historic ties between our countries and in light of the Eighth Amendment's own origins. The Amendment was modeled on a parallel provision in the English Declaration of Rights of 1689, which provided: "[E]xcessive Bail ought not to be required nor excessive Fines imposed; nor cruel and unusuall Punishments inflicted." 1 W. & M., ch. 2, §10, in 3 Eng. Stat. at Large 441 (1770); see also Trop, supra, at 100 (plurality opinion). As of now, the United Kingdom has abolished the death penalty in its entirety; but, decades before it took this step, it recognized the disproportionate nature of the juvenile death penalty; and it abolished that penalty as a separate matter. In 1930 an official committee recommended that the minimum age for execution be raised to 21. House of Commons Report from the Select Committee on Capital Punishment (1930), 193, p. 44. Parliament then enacted the Children and Young Person's Act of 1933, 23 Geo. 5, ch. 12, which prevented execution of those aged 18 at the date of the sentence. And in 1948, Parliament enacted the Criminal Justice Act, 11 & 12 Geo. 6, ch. 58, prohibiting the execution of any person under 18 at the time of the offense. In the 56 years that have passed since the United Kingdom abolished the juvenile death penalty, the weight of authority against it there, and in the international community, has become well established.

It is proper that we acknowledge the overwhelming weight of international opinion against the juvenile death penalty, resting in large part on the understanding that the instability and emotional imbalance of young people may often be a factor in the crime. See Brief for Human Rights Committee of the Bar of England and Wales
et al. as Amici Curiae 10-11. The opinion of the world community, while not controlling our outcome, does provide respected and significant confirmation for our own conclusions.

Over time, from one generation to the next, the Constitution has come to earn the high respect and even, as Madison dared to hope, the veneration of the American people. See The Federalist No. 49, p. 314 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961). The document sets forth, and rests upon, innovative principles original to the American experience, such as federalism; a proven balance in political mechanisms through separation of powers; specific guarantees for the accused in criminal cases; and broad provisions to secure individual freedom and preserve human dignity. These doctrines and guarantees are central to the American experience and remain essential to our present-day self-definition and national identity. Not the least of the reasons we honor the Constitution, then, is because we know it to be our own. It does not lessen our fidelity to the Constitution or our pride in its origins to acknowledge that the express affirmation of certain fundamental rights by other nations and peoples simply underscores the centrality of those same rights within our own heritage of freedom.
 
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