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Deity Of Christ In Scripture

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by PrinceJeff, Oct 30, 2001.

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  1. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

    +0
    (credit to David J. Hinton)

    1. Names of Jesus

    Immanuel, Emmanuel -- literally "God with us"
    (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:21-23)
    The righteous Branch -- called "the LORD our righteousness"
    (LORD = Yahweh) (Jeremiah 23:5,6)
    Eternal Father (Isaiah 9:6)
    Lord of glory -- 1 Cor 2:8

    2. Jesus called God

    "and the Word was God" (John 1:1, 1:14)
    Note: compare with 1:18, which is also correctly translated as
    "God," not "a God." These must be translated consistently.
    "the only begotten God" (John 1:1:cool: -- (the Greek word used is THEOS)
    Jesus accepts Thomas' acclamation: "my Lord and my God" (John 20:2:cool:
    God calls him "O God" (Hebrews 1::cool:
    Jesus' shed blood called God's blood (Acts 20:2:cool:
    All the fullness of Deity in bodily form (Colossians 2:9)
    "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1)
    Jesus is "the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20)
    Jesus applies to Himself words praising Yahweh in Psalm 8:2 --- "Out
    of the mouth of infants and nursing babes Thou hast prepared praise
    for Thyself" (Matthew 21:16)

    3. Jesus is worshipped

    No other gods than Yahweh

    There is no God other than Yahweh -- Deut 4:35
    "See now that I, I am He, and there is no god besides Me" -- Deut 32:39
    There is none like Yahweh, and no God besides Him -- 2 Samuel 7:22
    Yahweh declares: "Before Me there was no God formed, and there
    will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and there
    is no savior besides Me." -- Isaiah 43: 10-11
    "And there is no other God besides Me," -- Isaiah 45:5,21,22

    Note that the Bible commands us to worship God alone:

    First of the 10 Commandments -- Exodus 20:3-5
    God is one; fear and worship Yahweh only -- Deuteronomy 6:4, 6:13-15;
    Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:13 in Matthew 4:10:
    "For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God
    and serve Him only.'"
    Yahweh of hosts is the one you should fear -- Isaiah 8:13-15

    God will not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11),
    but He does give it to Christ (John 17:5)

    Jesus worshipped by ...

    ... the wise men (Matthew 2:11)
    ... the disciples in the boat (Matthew 14:33)
    ... the women at the empty tomb (Matthew 28:10)
    ... the disciples at His ascension (Matthew 28:17)
    (Note in the Great Commission that the "name" of the Father,
    Son, and Holy Spirit is singular -- Matthew 28:19)
    ... the man born blind, who Jesus healed (John 9:3:cool:
    ... all God's angels (Hebrews 1:6)

    Worship of God's angelic messengers prohibited -- Rev 19:10, 22:8,9
    Herod killed because he didn't give God the glory -- Acts 2:20-23

    4. Jesus/God everlasting

    Note that any created being must have been created at some time;
    that is, there was a time when it did not exist. Therefore, to
    exist from eternity past is a mark of divinity.

    Jesus:
    His goings forth from the days of eternity -- Micah 5:2
    Called "everlasting Father" -- Isaiah 9:6
    The Alpha and the Omega -- Rev 1:8, 22:13
    The first and the last -- Rev 1:17, 22:13
    The beginning and the end" -- Rev 22:13

    Yahweh:
    "I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He."
    -- Isaiah 41:4
    "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me"
    -- Isaiah 44:6
    "I am He, I am the first, I am also the last." -- Isaiah 48:12
    God enthroned: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and
    the end" -- Rev 21:5-7

    Note: Although Jesus is from all eternity, His earthly body is not
    -- Hebrews 10:5-10

    5. Jesus/God the creator

    God:

    Yahweh created man -- Gen 2:7
    Yahweh of hosts created heaven and earth -- Isaiah 37:16
    Note: This verse says He is the God alone, of all the kingdoms
    The Almighty gives me life -- Job 33:4
    Yahweh created the heavens, all their host -- Psalm 33:6-9
    The creator is the Everlasting God, Yahweh -- Isaiah 40:28
    Yahweh alone is the maker of all things; He stretched out the heavens
    by Himself, and spread out the earth all alone -- Isaiah 44:24
    Yahweh, Who created the heavens: "He is the God who formed the earth,"
    and says "I am the LORD, and there is none else." -- Isaiah 45:18-22
    One God created us -- Malachi 2:10
    God enthroned: "For Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy
    will they existed and were created." -- Rev 4:11

    Jesus:

    All things that were created were created through Christ -- John 1:3
    The world was made through Him -- John 1:10
    All things created by Him and for Him -- Colossians 1:15-17
    -- including everything in the heavens and earth, visible and
    invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities
    The heavens and earth are the work of His hands -- Heb 1:10-12
    Note: This passage describes the Son in the words of Psalm 102:25-27,
    which refer to Yahweh.

    6. Jesus/God the King (of Kings)

    Jesus, the Anointed King -- Psalm 2:4-12
    He will reign forever on David's throne and over his kingdom -- Isaiah 9:7
    Called the righteous Branch, reigns as king -- Jeremiah 23:5,6
    The Son of Man given a kingdom, glory, everlasting dominion.
    He is served by all peoples and nations. -- Daniel 7:14
    Zion/Jerusalem's king coming on a donkey - Zechariah 9:9, Matthew 21:5
    Gabriel announces that Jesus will reign over Israel forever -- Luke 1:32,33
    Jesus is king -- Matthew 25:34,40, Luke 19:38
    Jesus is the King of Israel -- John 1:49,50
    Jesus confesses that He is the King of the Jews
    -- Luke 23:3, John 18:37, John 19:21
    Jesus is "the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and
    Lord of lords" -- 1 Tim 6:15
    Jesus, the Lamb, is "Lord of lords and King of kings" -- Rev 17:14
    Jesus has written on His robe and on His thigh, "king of kings and
    lord of lords" -- Rev 19:16

    Yahweh is Lord of lords -- Deut 10:17
    The LORD Most High is King over all the earth -- Psalm 47:2
    Yahweh of hosts is the King, Whom Isaiah saw -- Isaiah 6:5
    Note: The reference in John 12:41 appears to identify this as Christ
    Yahweh of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem -- Isaiah 24:23
    Yahweh is King of Israel -- Isaiah 43:15, 44:6
    Yahweh is the everlasting King -- Jeremiah 10:10
    Yahweh will be king over all the earth -- Zechariah 14:9

    7. Jesus/God the Judge

    God:
    "For God will bring every act to judgment" -- Ecclesiastes 12:14
    The day of judgment is called the day of Yahweh -- Joel 2:31-3:2
    (See also Isaiah 2:12, 13:9-13, Jeremiah 46:10, 2 Peter 3:7-10)
    God judges: 2 Peter 2:4-11

    Jesus:

    Jesus enthroned in glory, judges the nations -- Matthew 25:31-46
    "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all
    judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even
    as they honor the Father." -- John 5:22-30
    We must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ -- 2 Cor 5:10
    Jesus judges -- 2 Thess 1:7-12

    8. Jesus/God our Savior/Redeemer

    God:

    The Most High God is Rock and Redeemer -- Psalm 78:34,35
    "They forgot God their Savior" -- Psalm 106:21
    Yahweh is Savior -- Isaiah 43:3-11
    Note verse 11: "I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior
    besides Me."
    Yahweh: "And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God
    and a Savior; There is none except Me." -- Isaiah 45:21
    Our Redeemer is the LORD of hosts -- Isaiah 44:6, 47:4, 55:8
    Yahweh is your Savior -- Isaiah 49:26
    Maker, Yahweh of hosts, Redeemer, Holy One, called God of all the earth
    -- Isaiah 54:5
    Mary rejoices in "God my Savior" -- Luke 1:47
    Our hope is fixed on "the living God, who is the Savior of all men"
    -- 1 Tim 4:10 (See also 1 Tim 1:1-3 -- "Jesus our hope")
    Glory "to the only God our Savior" -- Jude 1:25

    Jesus:

    Christ proclaimed as Savior by the angels -- Luke 2:10,11
    Testified of as Savior of the world -- John 4:40-42
    We "wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ" -- Philippians 3:20
    Sent to be the Savior of the world -- 1 John 4:14
    Bore our sins in His body on the cross...that we may return to
    the Shepherd and Guardian of our souls -- 1 Peter 2:24-25
    (Listed above: 2 Peter 1:1 -- "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ")

    "God our Savior...Christ Jesus our Savior" -- Titus 1:1-4
    "God our Savior...our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave
    himself for us that he might redeem us from every lawless deed
    and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous
    for good deeds." -- Titus 2:10-14

    9. Jesus/God the Rock

    God:

    Yahweh is the Rock -- Deut 32:1-4
    Yahweh is the only God, and the only Rock -- 2 Samuel 22:32,
    Isaiah 44:8
    God is my rock -- Psalm 18:2, 31:3, 78:34-35
    The rock of my salvation -- Psalm 89:26
    Yahweh of hosts is sanctuary and rock to stumble over -- Isaiah 8:13-15
    God is our salvation and the rock of our refuge -- Isaiah 17:10
    In Yahweh we have an everlasting Rock -- Isaiah 26:4


    Jesus:

    Jesus is the cornerstone -- Isaiah 28:16, Acts 4:10,11, Ephesians 2:20
    Christ was the spiritual rock which followed the Israelites
    -- 1 Cor 10:4
    Jesus is both the cornerstone and the rock to stumble over
    -- 1 Peter 2:4-8. Note the reference to Isaiah 8:14,
    which refers to Yahweh, the rock to stumble over.

    10. Who raised Christ?

    God:

    Christ raised from the dead by the glory of the Father -- Romans 6:4
    God the Father raised Jesus from the dead -- Galations 1:1

    Jesus:
    "Destroy this temple [His body, verse 2:21], and in three days
    I will raise it up." -- John 2:19

    "I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it
    away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have
    authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.
    This commandment I received from My Father." -- John 10:17-18

    12. Whose witnesses?

    Yahweh:
    "You are My witnesses" -- Isaiah 43:10, 44:8
    Jesus:
    "you shall be My witnesses" -- Acts 1:8


    __________________________________________________________________________

    And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the
    throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them
    was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

    saying with a loud voice,

    "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain
    To receive power and riches and wisdom and might
    and honor and glory and blessing."

    And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and
    under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard
    saying,

    "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb,
    Be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

    And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders
    fell down and worshipped.

    --Revelation 5:11-14
     
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  2. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

    +617
    Methodist
    Single
    Thanks for this post! :)
     
  3. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

    +0
    You betcha Angel! :D
     
  4. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Prince Jeff,

    You credited the following to David Hinton. Is David Hinton a messenger SENT by God? Let's examine his message against the WORD of God and see if his message is SIMILAR to God's.



    Matthew 23:9 - "Do not call anyone on earth your Father, for ONE is your Father, he who is in heaven." When Jesus said this, he was on earth and he was referring to ONE Father who was in heaven. Thus, Jesus is NOT the Father that Isaiah was referring to. Neither was Isaiah referring to God the Father of the Old Testament because it was God the Father who said Isaiah 7:14.

    "Immanuel" means "God with us" but it does NOT tell us that Jesus is God. "Immanuel" simply means that God abides in those who are IN Christ.

    While it's true that Jesus is the LORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, this does NOT make him God. Acts 2:36 teaches us that GOD MADE Jesus both LORD and Christ.



    John 1:1 does NOT refer to Jesus. It is John's figurative way of describing God's WORD (expressed idea, plan or promise) which was with God in the beginning (of course because the WORD was God's) and the WORD was God because God's WORD has the SAME power as God who SPOKE the WORD. In other words, the phrase "the WORD was God" is John's expression of certainty that GoD'S WORD will be fulfilled.

    WHAT was the WORD that was with God in the beginning?

    In Gen. 3:15, God promised to create enmity between the serpent's seed and the woman's seed. This woman's seed is Christ. In Gen. 17:7, God made a permanent covenant with Abraham and his seed. This seed is Christ (Gal. 3:16). In Deut. 18:18, God promised to Moses that he will put up a prophet just like him. This prophet that God was referring to is Jesus. And finally in Isaiah 7:14, God promised that a virgin will conceive and bear a son. That son is Jesus.

    Apostle Peter sums it all up in 1 Peter 1:20 when he wrote that Christ was foreordained from the foundations of the world.

    Why was John certain of God's promises to the extent of saying that God's WORD is God? In Num. 23:19, God gave the assurance that what he says he does and makes good.

    John 1:14 is John's figurative way describing the fulfillment of God's WORD regarding Jesus. It was NOT God who SPOKE the WORD that became flesh. It was God's WORD (expressed idea, plan or promise) that became Jesus.

    The version of the Bible that renders John 1:18 as "God the only begotten God" is a deliberate mis-translation to make it appear that Jesus is God. But truth cannot be hidden. The first part of the verse tells us that "no one has ever seen God at any time." If this is true, then Jesus CANNOT be "God the only begotten God." On the other hand if John truly believed that Jesus is God, then he would NOT have written that "no one has ever seen God at any time." Don't you agree that John SAW Jesus on numerous occassions?



    Actually, Jesus rebuked the 11 apostles (Thomas was absent - John 20:24) the first time he saw them on the evening of the day God raised him from the dead (Luke 24:39). On this occasion, he showed them his hands and feet and explained to them that a SPIRIT (God is spirit - John 4:24) does NOT have flesh and bones like he has. Then Jesus asked for food and they gave him broiled fish which he ate (Luke 24:40-41).

    When Jesus appeared the second time before the apostles, Thomas was present an d exclaimed the famous, "My Lord and my God." Jesus did not see fit to repeat his rebuke because this time, Jesus had another message to impart. Thomas did not believe until he saw Jesus. Thus, the message that Jesus wanted to impart is the blessedness of not seeing yet believing.



    Heb. 1:8 was lifted from a mis-translated version of Psalm 45:6. Psalm 45 is a poem written in praise of a king (verse 1) who is fairer than the children of men (verse 2). If Psalm 45:6 were an accurate translation, it would appear that there are really two separate Gods which the Old Testament does NOT support.

    Heb. 1:9 tells us that the God of verse 8 has a God who anoints him with the oild of gladness ABOVE the verse 8 God's "companions." If verse 8 were accurate, how many Gods are there in verse 9? How many God-companions does the verse 8 God has?



    The Revised Standard Version of Acts 20:28 says "...the church of the LORD (referring to Christ - 1 Cor. 8:6) which he purchased with his own blood." The Lamsa version says "...the church of Christ which he purchased with his blood."

    There is no such thing as "God's blood" because according to Jesus, "God is SPIRIT" (John 4:24) and a SPIRIT does NOT have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

    God says that MAN is flesh (Gen. 6:3) and He is NOT a man (NBumbers 23:19). Thus, it was NOT God who bled on the cross. It was a MAN whose blood was used to purchase the church of the LORD (only one Lord - 1 Cor. 8:6) or church of Christ.



    The Today's English Version (TEV) of the Bible says it differently and does NOT make Jesus God: "For the full content of divine nature lives inChrist..."



    Verse 1 pertains to the righteousness of God and the righteousness of our savior Jesus Christ. If you go further down to verse 2, you will read that knowledge pertains to God and to Jesus our Lord.

    If you go back to 1 Peter 1:3, the difference between God and our Lord Jesus Christ becomes more evident. God is ALSO the Father o our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus is NOT God and savior rolled into ONE!



    If Jesus is "the true God and eternal life" who is his son Jesus? The "only true God is the FATHER (John 17:3). The only true God SENT His son Jesus to give us an understanding that we may know HIM (the true God) who is true, that we are in HIM (the true God) who is true, in HIS (the true God) son Jesus Christ. This is the true God (Father - John 17:3) and eternal life.



    This does NOT make Jesus God. God commands angels to worship him (Heb. 1:6).

    God commands men to worship Jesus to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:9-11).

    In commanding angels and men to worship Jesus, God was NOT sharing His glory with another God. When we worship Jesus in obedience to God's command, we are NOT worshipping another God. We are still worshipping God ALONE because worship of Jesus GLORIFIES God the Father.



    This verse does NOT specificlly say that all three are Gods to nullify John 17:3 which specificlly and unequivocably declare that the FATHER is the ONLY true God.



    Jesus said he proceeded and CAME from God (John 8:42).



    Rev. 1:8 was uttered by the Lord God Almighty who sits on the throne (Rev. 4:2, 8-11). Rev. 1:11 was uttered by the Lamb who has the seven spirits of God (Rev. 3:1; Rev. 5:6) and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne (Rev. 5:7).



    This is FALSE. Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8 and Mal. 2:10 identify the FATHER as the cretor. Rev. 4:8-11 tells us that the LORD God Almighty is the creator, NOT the LAMB.



    FALSE! Read Acts 17:3.



    God made him Prince and savior (Acts 5:31).

    Ed
     
  5. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

    +0
    Ed was this what God told you or what Felix Manalo says?
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    PrinceJeff,



    Are you blind my friend? Don't you see the verses I quoted? These are words of God. However, I would have remained blind to these TRUTHS if I didn't come out of the Baptist Church where I belonged.

    A minister who was a student of God's messenger in these last days, Bro. Felix Manalo, guided me to come to the knowledge of these truths.

    Ed
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Thus, Jesus is NOT the Father"

    No person will tell you that who believes in the trinity ed. Jesus isn't the father, he is God though.

    ""Immanuel" means "God with us" but it does NOT tell us that Jesus is God. "Immanuel" simply means that God abides in those who are IN Christ."

    Umm..addding to the bible here ed, Jesus is called Immanuel, we are not.

    "John 1:1 does NOT refer to Jesus. "

    Yes it does, I have clearly shown you that, you just refuse to believe it, just read verses 1, 14, 15, and 30. that should help.

    "When Jesus appeared the second time before the apostles, Thomas was present an d exclaimed the famous, "My Lord and my God." Jesus did not see fit to repeat his rebuke because this time, Jesus had another message to impart. "

    Again you are forcing YOUR ideas here on the bible. You're essentailly reading the mind of christ :lol: He didn't rebuke him because it was right, Jesus is God.

    "Heb. 1:8 was lifted from a mis-translated version of Psalm 45:6. "

    When you learn greek or hebrew I will value your option on mistranslation, NOT until then.

    "There is no such thing as "God's blood" because according to Jesus, "God is SPIRIT" (John 4:24) and a SPIRIT does NOT have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)."

    you misunderstand that verse. It also said God's right hand or he walked with adam in the bible..;)


    "The Today's English Version (TEV) of the Bible says it differently and does NOT make Jesus God: "For the full content of divine nature lives inChrist...""

    :lol: yes it does..the full content of diety in Christ, ie diety in Christ, ie christ is diety, it is contained in him.


    Several times now you have added to the bible, misinterpreted it, taken it out of context, and basically twisted it to mean what you want it to. I think your focing the bible to fit into your ideas more then speaks for itself. Jesus is God.
     
  8. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

    +617
    Methodist
    Single


    Not to get technical or anything...but any version of the Bible today is only an interpretation of the words of God. If you want the actual words of God, you have to go back to the original text/language...be it Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. (Those are the original 3 languages, right?)

    There are some translations that are closer to the original text then others. I personally have not read the TEV...so I don't know where it falls in the accuracy of translating. Anyone know? (Feel free to just respond in my e-mail...I know that my question has nothing to do with the topic at hand...it just came to mind.)
     
  9. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    ed refer to my post to your other thread ... you really do twist it all...

    Realize that all of the verses foretelling Christ's coming are not speaking about Him as a prophet...

    God had always known that He would come to earth becoming a man to die for you and me. If it isn't him, then it means nothing...

    I will not attempt to convince you... my Father will

    Believe Ed...
     
  10. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    You mention that God became a man to die for you and me. Where does it teach that in scripture? The Bible clearly teaches that God condemned man to die for his own sins. But he also made a provision for the seed of the woman to eventually stamp out sin (Genesis 3:15). He made a provision for a blood substitute (sacrifice) for sin. That substitute for man's sin was God's own Son, who is also the "seed of the woman".

    Never did God even so much as imply that He Himself should or would die for the sins of man.

    God is immortal. If God could die for you and me, then the hope of immortality is in vain. Paul was wrong when he wrote in 1 Cor. 15:54 - When this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

    If Jesus is God, then God is not immortal, or Jesus did not die for our sins. Jesus is not God, he is God's only begotten Son, born of the virgin Mary, Son of God and Son of Man, able to die for us.

    John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Does it say that God sent Himself? No. He sent His Son.
     
  11. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Nice post! I couldn't have said it better.

    Ed
     
  12. Soul_Searcher

    Soul_Searcher Contributor

    +249
    Other Religion
    Ed, explain these verses to me please?

    John 10:30: I and my Father are one.

    John 16:15: All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 14: 9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11: Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    John 16:28: I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world, again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    In your own words please, no need for extra verses. I just want to know what YOU think these say. Thanks.

    Oh, and one more; John:15:12: This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    These verses DEFINITELY do NOT  tell us that Jesus is God. What these verses mean do NOT have any relevance to the topic of this thread. I don't see any point in explaining the meaning of these verses.

    Ed
     
  14. Soul_Searcher

    Soul_Searcher Contributor

    +249
    Other Religion
    Gee Ed, the topic is "Deity of Christ in Scripture." I think these verses hit the nail on the head. Care to explain why you don't think so? I mean, what could Jesus have possibly meant by saying "If you have seen me you have seen the Father"? Or that "I and the Father are ONE"?

    Methinks you doth protest too much Ed.
     
  15. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Do these verses SAY Jesus is God? NO! The FACT that you want me to EXPLAIN what Jesus could have POSSIBLY meant by these verses is PROOF that these verses do NOT say that Jesus is God. Would you accept an explanation that does  NOT fit into your belief that Jesus is God? Certainly not, right?

    Therefore, since you and I CANNOT go INSIDE Jesus' head to KNOW for sure what he meant when he said these, the ONLY safer course for BOTH of us to take is to wholeheartedly ACCEPT what Jesus CLEARLY said  - those that do NOT need any explanation of what he meant regarding the subject of this thread.  

    For example:

    In John 8:40, Jesus SAID: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN, who has told you the TRUTH that I heard from God..." Regarding his state of being, Jesus CLEARLY indicated that he is a MAN - not God. No explanation is needed to know what Jesus meant regarding WHAT he is and WHAT he is NOT.

    In John 17:3, Jesus SAID: "And this is eternal life, that thy may know YOU, the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent." Regarding WHO the ONLY true God is, Jesus CLEARLY indicated that the FATHER is the ONLY true God. No explanation is needed to know what Jesus meant regarding WHO the ONLY true God is.

    Ed
     
  16. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +85
    Christian
    Married
    Jesus-Who He is according to: Inglesia ni Christo


    2PET 2:1 But there were false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly put forward wrong teachings for your destruction, even turning away from the Lord who gave himself for them; whose destruction will come quickly, and they themselves will be the cause of it.

    2PET 2:2 And a great number will go with them in their evil ways, through whom the true way will have a bad name.

    2PET 2:3 And in their desire for profit they will come to you with words of deceit, like traders doing business in souls: whose punishment has been ready for a long time and their destruction is watching for them.
     
  17. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +0


    I'll tackle them since Ed doesn't want to go through them, again.


    John 10:30: I and my Father are one.

    This means they are of one mind. This kind of phrase was also used to illustrate the relationship between Jesus and his desciples.


    John 16:15: All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    Taken in context, Jesus is the annointed of God, established by Him to be a mediator. Later on we see the significance of this verse:

    John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.

    Note that he clarifies: "ask the Father in my name,"
    Fits in perfectly with the context of John 16:15, no surprise since it's the same chapter.


    John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11: Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    Note: Here, the Father is substituted for the Holy Spirit. Which indicates those names are interchangeable with God the Father, and not separate 'persons.' So, it's Holy Spirit of God, not God the Holy Spirit.

    This shows the nature of Christ, being the vassal from which God the Father does His works. Moses could make the same claim.

    Who does the works?

    Not God the son.

    "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

    God the Father does the works. Again, no surprise since the Father is the only God.


    John 16:28: I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world, again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    "I came forth from the Father," God created him.
    "and come into the world," He was born.
    "again, I leave the world, and go to the Father." He dies and goes to heaven.

    This says nothing of Christ being a god.


    John:15:12: This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

    Jesus wants to set an example of love. This verse doesn't make him a god.

    In summary:
    The New Testament doesn't say "God the Son" nor does it say "God the Spirit."
    It does say God the Father.

    The New Testament makes it clear that only [i/] the Father[i/] is God. If only the Father is God, then the son and spirit (the other persons of the 'trinity') can't also be gods.

    One of these doctrines is false.

    1. "only the Father is God" --- New Testament scripture

    2. "the Father is God, the son is God, the spirit is God" --- trinitarian Church creed.

    They can't both be true since #1 is exclusive of #2.

    Who is lying? The New Testament scripture or the trinity Churchs?
     
  18. Soul_Searcher

    Soul_Searcher Contributor

    +249
    Other Religion
    Well done Kain; thank you for your reasoned answer. (I wonder why Ed couldn't do the same.)

    Personally, I don't care much about the Nicene Creed or any church doctrine, as I find all I need in the Gospels themselves. Jesus showed the way, and that's the way I strive to live. It has nothing to do with the Trinity or any church; it has to do with faith and actions--walking the talk as it were.

    Now, that said, I do believe that Jesus knew his connection with God and sought to teach us we are so connected also--all we need is faith the size of a mustard seed.

    Have a wonderful journey. :)
     
  19. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

    +4
    United Ch. of Christ
    So which is it?

    Who is God? In your post I didn't see what position you held.
     
  20. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
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