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Dagda

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CS2x said:
Do you believe in the supernatural? And do you believe that God can give divine experiences to people, even though He hasn't revealed Himself in any books?
Thanks.
I believe in the supernatural. I don't think it's directly dependent on God to exist though. I believe that it was part of the 'blueprint' of the Universe. The supernatural is like the flip side of reality.

BTW, I don't even think an afterlife has to be directly dependent on God either. I think we can probably have an afterlife simply because there is a part of our beings: soul/mind, that can survive death. I don't think God even has to be involved necessarily. He's already done His work getting things set up and put in motion.


I don't really belive that God gives anyone divine experiences, not directly anyway. That's the important part; I don't think He does anything Himself. Think about it, why would God make it possible for this Universe to exist if He didn't want it to run by itself without His help? I don't think He would want everything to depend on Him.
 
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Holy Heretic

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JSynon said:
Hey, :wave:

I disagree. There is proof. But my question for you is: What if one of those "one way/revealed" religions are correct?

No offense meant to you personally Holy Heretic, but IMHO the Universist Movement which is uniting moral relativists from many world views is quite logically incoherent and absurd. ;)
Ok, and what if it is not your "revealed religon", but one of the others. then you are in deep doo-doo!!
but as long as people follow these systems -humankind will continue to breed PREJudice,eltitism, war and death.
I want no part of it.

you may be right about Universism, but at leats it's goal is to unite and bring tolerance and understanding and peace, instead of prejudice,eltism, war and death.

peace
 
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JSynon

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Ok, and what if it is not your "revealed religon", but one of the others. then you are in deep doo-doo!!
I don't know about the deep doo-doo part. Muslims and Jews seem to believe that at least some followers of other faiths will receive salvation.
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work in righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Surah 2 Al-Baqarah v. 62
Even if that is the case... what if one of them is correct?
 
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Holy Heretic

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yes, but you will not reciebve as many rewards for it, and if you condmened the non-messianic jews and muslims as idolaterers{as your bible tells you too} then Allah may not be pleased w/you for your prejudice.

Also, what if it is one of the other revealed faiths that is true{other than the abrahamic ones}, there are many other "revealed religons" whom just hav not YET attained the same welath, pwoier and influence as the abrahamic faiths have{through war and plunder, stealng and hoarding, I might add}, but may someday, then you WILL be in doo-doo???

peace
 
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JSynon

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and if you condmened the non-messianic jews and muslims as idolaterers{as your bible tells you too}
My Bible tells me to condemn no one.

Also, what if it is one of the other revealed faiths that is true{other than the abrahamic ones}
Hypothetically speaking, yes I would be in doo-doo. But you answer my question with a question.
 
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Holy Heretic

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JSynon said:
My Bible tells me to condemn no one.

Hypothetically speaking, yes I would be in doo-doo. But you answer my question with a question.
Um....yes your bible tells you to judge by fruits, and the law suggests that one must condemn others. the onlt thing that it says that supports your assertion is things that sugges you do not PREjudge, but then it goes and contradicts itself by having PREjudiced laws in the O.T. wich Jesus cmmands complete obedience too every letter of.

peace
 
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most deists find any religion that includes an omnibenevolent god that has written the laws of the universe in such a way that those that do not believe in him and/or serve him specifically will end up in eternal damnation ( whether that be torment , destruction of the soul , or whatever else floats your boat ) to be by the laws of logic self contradictory and therefore impossible .

We dont gamble our souls because we dont think god is stupid enough to write the universe in such a way that woul require us to , and I personally am not going to believe something out of pascals wager .
 
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Holy Heretic

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slayer-2004 said:
most deists find any religion that includes an omnibenevolent god that has written the laws of the universe in such a way that those that do not believe in him and/or serve him specifically will end up in eternal damnation ( whether that be torment , destruction of the soul , or whatever else floats your boat ) to be by the laws of logic self contradictory and therefore impossible .

We dont gamble our souls because we dont think god is stupid enough to write the universe in such a way that woul require us to , and I personally am not going to believe something out of pascals wager .
:amen: :wave: :clap:
 
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S

Silent Bob

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We dont gamble our souls because we dont think god is stupid enough to write the universe in such a way that woul require us to , and I personally am not going to believe something out of pascals wager .

:amen: BROTHER

When a Christian friend asked me the same question I answered that: I reject the God of Christianity through rational, empirical evidence and my personal morals. If you are right and I face such a God I will gladly submit to hell and be true to myself rather than live in heaven and become something I am not.

It doesn't matter who is right or wrong in the end. We need to be true to ourselves. I questioned my faith to the Biblegod, rejected him on grounds of my personal morals and logic, I accept that I don't fit with such a God and I have no problem spending an eternity in hell with a clear conscience if such is the real God.

I would switch the question and ask how would you feel if you are wrong but this is irrelevant.
 
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Holy Heretic

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Cronic said:
:amen: BROTHER

When a Christian friend asked me the same question I answered that: I reject the God of Christianity through rational, empirical evidence and my personal morals. If you are right and I face such a God I will gladly submit to hell and be true to myself rather than live in heaven and become something I am not.

It doesn't matter who is right or wrong in the end. We need to be true to ourselves. I questioned my faith to the Biblegod, rejected him on grounds of my personal morals and logic, I accept that I don't fit with such a God and I have no problem spending an eternity in hell with a clear conscience if such is the real God.

I would switch the question and ask how would you feel if you are wrong but this is irrelevant.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
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IchbinBerliner

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silverflare said:
I don't think many deists would claim to know the purpose of creation. As far as I can tell, Deists believe in a God through empirical, logical, and rational means but see no evidence for a personal, interventionist God. I consider deism a branch of freethought not much different than atheism in many ways.
That was a rude statement.


I honestly believe there is no purpose for creation. Just some child playing with his toys. I have my own faith, that many of you would find either too non-christian to take seriously or too bizarre to believe that I believe it.
 
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Hydra009

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IchbinBerliner said:
That was a rude statement.
No it wasn't.

"I don't think many deists would claim to know the purpose of creation." - That's true, isn't it?

"As far as I can tell, Deists believe in a God through empirical, logical, and rational means but see no evidence for a personal, interventionist God." - That's true.

"I consider deism a branch of freethought not much different than atheism in many ways." - That's a personal opinion that IMHO is not meant to be an insult to deism. Both groups reject the doctrine of a personal, interventionist God and the validity of revelation - a doctrine that the three monotheist religions share.

I honestly believe there is no purpose for creation. Just some child playing with his toys. I have my own faith, that many of you would find either too non-christian to take seriously or too bizarre to believe that I believe it.
That's great, but if it doesn't have relevence to deism, it's probably best not to share.
 
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Dagda

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IchbinBerliner said:
That was a rude statement.


I honestly believe there is no purpose for creation. Just some child playing with his toys. I have my own faith, that many of you would find either too non-christian to take seriously or too bizarre to believe that I believe it.
I like that the post you are referring to said Deism has some aspects of freethought to it. I would also add that Deism has some real common sense too. At least I can relate to it and believe it's plausible more than I can Biblical religion.

So, that post wasn't rude.:)
 
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caller_to_truth

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If God was supposed to have created the mankind and then have nothing to do with it, does that not seem a bit foolish in the first place to just create it and leave it running by itself. Isn't foolish to cook a nice dish then just leave it there, or have a nice garment sewn and just leave it there unworn.But it man's natural disposition to beleive in GOD and to worship.If GOD just created mankind and left it to run by itself then how do we explain a child inside the womb the way it evolves from the drop of sperm into a live human being if god had just created mankind and left it then how would that process go smoothly in a timely manner or even the rising and setting of the sun.Which is done like clock work.We don't need an Alarm clock there every day that needs to wake up the sun or remind it to rise, nor even to set, like we need reminders all the time.Humans every where in every corner of the globe were created with the need to worship something, someone.Even those who deny GOD at the time of Crisis or death they are calling OH! my GOD. So this denial of god whether he does not exist at all or he just created mankind and left is really not a sincere denial because like I said it is the natural disposition of man to beleive and worship something.
Peace:D
 
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Holy Heretic

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caller_to_truth said:
If God was supposed to have created the mankind and then have nothing to do with it, does that not seem a bit foolish in the first place to just create it and leave it running by itself. Isn't foolish to cook a nice dish then just leave it there, or have a nice garment sewn and just leave it there unworn.But it man's natural disposition to beleive in GOD and to worship.If GOD just created mankind and left it to run by itself then how do we explain a child inside the womb the way it evolves from the drop of sperm into a live human being if god had just created mankind and left it then how would that process go smoothly in a timely manner or even the rising and setting of the sun.Which is done like clock work.We don't need an Alarm clock there every day that needs to wake up the sun or remind it to rise, nor even to set, like we need reminders all the time.Humans every where in every corner of the globe were created with the need to worship something, someone.Even those who deny GOD at the time of Crisis or death they are calling OH! my GOD. So this denial of god whether he does not exist at all or he just created mankind and left is really not a sincere denial because like I said it is the natural disposition of man to beleive and worship something.
Peace:D
The child in the womb and the process going smoothly. Is this why many children are born deformed, or perhaps as siameze twins, is it wahy many are born prematurely-or even after the 9 months is up???
You assumption is false friend.

Why is it not possible that the Creator just created the Universe{es}, set all the natural laws in place to unfold themselves{the unfolding of the universe, the birth of sentient life, the evolution both macro and micro of sentient life forms,etc,etc}.
Why is it not possible that the Creator set in all of us{or most of us} not personally-but as part of the natural laws that unfolded{like the domino effect of the Creator flicking the first and the rest naturally follow} and evolved onto us-so that we woyuld all look at the Creation and colclude that something or someone made it; perhpas it was the Creators intent to not interfere w/this process that he/she/it set in motion from the beginning of time indirectly via creating all the natural laws to unfold according to plan[or "mostly" according to plan} so that we would all learn to tolerate one another, we would all create our variuos revealed faith systems that are in disagreement w/each other-eventually evolving to apoint where we all relaize that NONE has contained the creators truth or nature w/in it, so that we would all grow to be as one in our knowledge that we know little or nothing about the Creator, and thence we would not say "your religon is evil and mine is holy", but rather we'd all come to say "no religon is holy, and all are just our biased preconceptions of the Creator{s} or Creative Force{s}, making the him/her/it into our own image{as "revealed religons' have done}".
This is what I as a Deistic Universist think personally is a very strong "possibility".

How can "revealed religons" such as Christianity/Islam, and Judaism,etc, claim that we can't know the ways of god as god is above us, and then go and claim that their holy books or religons contain the truth of the creator-ar at least as much that they are MORE right and that the others are therefor-evil and ungodly and deserving of hellfire{even if they are altruistic and just}, are they not contradicting themselves?

As a deist, I claim that I personally believe via my god/deity/creator-given 'reason"{the greatest gift next to altruism given us by whoever/whatever created us} that there is a god/deity/creator/creative force of some sorts, I conclude this designer exists because of the design, but I also say "gods ways are way above ours, who cna know deitys ways?"-and rather than contradicting myself by saying that I have a directly/personally revealed truth from the Creator about this and therefore a personal relationship that makes me special enough to save me from some hell-while others who believe differently are going to an eternall hell; I simply say, that is it. Other than this, my god-given "reason" tells me that I wish to be loved, I wish not to be harmed, I wish not to be exploited, so therefore-i should not hamrm or exploit others and I should love others. This merely by the natural law of our creator-given "reason" which exists in each of us if we will only pay it heed, rather than paying ancient dogmas/doctrines and so-called prophets/holy books and their godforms{biased intrprettaion of Creator} heed.
It was Freethinking,naturalists,deists,etc, whom invented democracy as we know it, whom decided that all are created equal and have equal legal and social rights before law, "revealed religons' have always fought for control and theocracy, even today-the christian church in our democratic nations of the west have decided to try to supress the rights of those who are not of their beliefs{ie:trying to hold back gay marriage-even if done under secular law in a court of law rather than a church], why? because christians -though they may generally "tolerate" the existence of others beliefs and ideas and non-hurtful lifestyles they consider sinful, they are still fighting for a theocracy, and theocracy has never been good for the advancement of peace,equalioty and altruism. Only non-revealed religons democracy.

From what I can see, it is your revealed religon of christianity, and other revealed religons that limit the Creator and thereby insult him/her/it.

The fact that you could not even contemplate that perhaps the way that the Creator brough us to this point could not be done via some other means than revealed religon, says that you are limiting this immense being/force.

Peace to you:wave:
 
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