definition of evolution and such

[Rhonda75]

okay i am new here and new to the ideas and such of evolution, so here i go. my friend and i always tend to get into very heated debates about evolution and time. I need help on what to say to him, he is very tough and I want to see him saved, so any ideas.

 

[wblastyn]

Tell him you can be a Christian and accept evolution, in fact most Christains do now.

Evolution does not falsify God, it only falsifies a literal interpretation of Genesis and Jesus did not mention having to accept a literal Genesis to be saved.

Some creationists push people away from Christianity by insisting you have to accept literal Genesis to be saved, which is unbiblical nonsense.

 

[Rhonda75]

Tell him you can be a Christian and accept evolution, in fact most Christains do now.

Evolution does not falsify God, it only falsifies a literal interpretation of Genesis and Jesus did not mention having to accept a literal Genesis to be saved.

Some creationists push people away from Christianity by insisting you have to accept literal Genesis to be saved, which is unbiblical nonsense.

I am not sure what you are trying to say to me. What is your definition of evolution?

 

[wblastyn]

Well the simplest one would be "descent with modification". As populations of organisms progress over generations they change to suit their environment. That is evolution.

 

[Rhonda75]

Okay I am sorry that I got into this discussion. The one thing I appreciate about the Lord's word is that it never changes or evolves or adapts to the situation or enviroment. What I was asking was what points could I use while in a debat over evolution, not if it's true or not. I know that my friend says that evolution started as a single cell organism that evolved. And I am trying to tell him different. I don't think we evolve when we move from one enviroment to another. I think God equipped us to adapt, but not evolve. Sorry brother

 

[wblastyn]

Evolution doesn't "compromise the word of God, it just means Genesis wasn't supposed to have been taken literally.

Do you believe the earth is flat with a dome (firmanent) on top with stars stuck on, that there are storehouses of rain and snow in the, the mustard seed is the smallest (least) of the seeds, that "all the world was taxed" despite the fact that "all the world" hadn't been discovered yet? Of course you don't because science tells us these thing cannot be literal, same thing with Genesis.

 

[Rhonda75]

I don't think we read the same Bible

 

[The Barbarian]

Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, which people see as ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn. [De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)

Creationism is not a Christian doctrine. Do not let this jepardize your chance to witness.

 

[Rhonda75]

I know, I know, it's just that this guy totally believes in science and all that, and he's a great kid we've known each other for 10 years and I just can't find the right thing to use because this what he brings up all the time

 

[wblastyn]

I don't think we read the same Bible

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

From http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Ok, so here the Bible says the earth doesn't move, except we know that it does move - it orbits the sun, and also moves during earthquakes.

Psalm 19:1, “The heavens tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven reveals his handiwork.”

The vault of heaven is the sky, which the Hebrews believed was a dome with stars stuck on it.

Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

So now the earth is a circle, which is flat.

Some aspects of the universe described in Genesis are what you'd expect in the pre Copernican world. It is geocentric or earth centered. The sky is a dome over the earth. In the first creation account the dome of the sky separates the waters: "God said: 'Let there be a vault in the waters to divide the waters in two.' And so it was. God made the vault and it divided the waters above the vault from the eaters below the vault. God called the vault heaven." This vault is called the firmament in some translations. And the firmament is firm, that is solid, supporting the waters above. As Psalm 104 states about God and his abode in heaven: "You build your palace on the waters above". The waters below lie on the earth and below the earth. The stars, sun and moon move on the dome. The planets are not specifically mentioned, but supposedly included as stars. However the time keeping functions of the sun and moon are stated. The Hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar, with corrections to keep it synchronized with the sun to roughly emulate a tropical year.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bmoler/biblcosm.htm

"Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth. Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. " (Lev. 11.21-22)

Insects do not have 4 legs.

Read Job for the verses on the storehouses for rain and snow, oh and the fire breathing sea serpent.

Jesus called the mustard seed the "least" of the seeds, which it isn't.

 

[wblastyn]

I know, I know, it's just that this guy totally believes in science and all that, and he's a great kid we've known each other for 10 years and I just can't find the right thing to use because this what he brings up all the time

I'm trying to tell you the same thing as The Barbarian. Tell him you don't need to accept creationism to be a Christian and that science cannot confirm or deny the existance of God because He is supernatural, and science can only deal with the natural. We just don't have the tools to test the supernatural.

Something like 40% of scientists are theists, 1% of scientists reject evolution, so what does that tell you.

 

[sfs]

I know that my friend says that evolution started as a single cell organism that evolved. And I am trying to tell him different.

The problem is that by telling him different you're putting a stumbling block in front of him. The gospel is about Jesus Christ and salvation, it's not about whether evolution is true or not. You don't have to pretend to accept evolution, but by presenting creationism to your friend as part of Christianity you're adding things to the gospel, something Paul was quite clear is a really bad idea. Why do you care whether he accepts evolution or not? Lots of Christians, including a fair number of evangelicals, do.

If he becomes a Christian, argue with him about it then. In the meantime, why not concentrate on the gospel?

 

[Rhonda75]

Maybe I was wrong on what Bible you read, and in order to continue this conversation with you, it seems I am going to have to do some research of my own in the Bible. Till then talk to you later.

 

[Rhonda75]

okay see the problem I am having in this post as I am still new to it, is I am getting emails on what is being posted before I actually get to the post and they are not in the order I receive them, so I apologize if i come off as offensive, see the thing is everytime I try to witness about the Bible to him he brings up creation and time and gets messy, then I find myself at a loss for words. sorry Rhonda

 

[wblastyn]

Maybe I was wrong on what Bible you read, and in order to continue this conversation with you, it seems I am going to have to do some research of my own in the Bible. Till then talk to you later.

You don't have to. The point i'm trying to make is that the bible is not a science book. It's a book on theology, ie. about God. It doesn't matter if the people who wrote it got the science wrong, they were trying to explain theological concepts by using the limited knowledge of science they had at the time. Does it matter if the science is wrong? No, why should they get it right, it's not like God dictated the Bible to them, and even if He did why would He teach people science? The Bible is about salvation, not how the universe works.

 

[wblastyn]

okay see the problem I am having in this post as I am still new to it, is I am getting emails on what is being posted before I actually get to the post and they are not in the order I receive them, so I apologize if i come off as offensive, see the thing is everytime I try to witness about the Bible to him he brings up creation and time and gets messy, then I find myself at a loss for words. sorry Rhonda

Well it's his mistake if he thinks you have to accept literal Genesis to be a Christian. Explain this to him. As the others have said, you don't have to accept evolution if you don't want to, but don't let something that is unimportant to salvation prevent you from witnessing to someone.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

From http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html

Here is the Nicene Creed, it is a summary of what the Early Church considered to be essential for someone to believe in order to be a Christian. As you can see it says nothing about accepting literal Genesis, it just says you must believe God created, which we do, we just believe God used evolution to create.

 

[Rhonda75]

I believe in science too, but not in a way that twists what the word has to say about it. I think the Bible does speak about how the universe works, and science brings it to life. I am going to try very hard from now on to choose my words very wisely. Thanks to all. Rhonda

 

[wblastyn]

I believe in science too, but not in a way that twists what the word has to say about it. I think the Bible does speak about how the universe works, and science brings it to life. I am going to try very hard from now on to choose my words very wisely. Thanks to all. Rhonda

So you don't agree with the Nicene Creed?

 

[Rhonda75]

So you don't agree with the Nicene Creed?

I am kind of new to this, so would you mind explaining to me what the Nicene Creed is...

 

[wblastyn]

I am kind of new to this, so would you mind explaining to me what the Nicene Creed is...

Well the early church made a creed during the Council of Nicaea, which is basically a summary of everything you need to believe to be a Christian, known as the "essentials". So the "essential" beliefs are summed up in the Nicene Creed, anything else, like how God created, etc is unimportant for our salvation, we just have to believe God created.

The main reason the creed was made was to combat Arian heresy, which denied the deity of Jesus, so the creed emphasises the trinity.