Defining "Works"

[Saint Steven]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I think other Christians will be hard pressed to find anywhere in my 10 years of being on CF where I show up, unannounced and initiate a 'take down' of another Christian.

I wasn't talking about you. You understand the term "aforementioned", correct? Who did you mention? (before) Wink, wink...

 

[Saint Steven]

No, brother Steve. In this instance, I'm only referring to the verse that I had under the microscope back up in post #50, where I was being trounced on by NortreDame and not really allowed a place to be heard. (i.e. Romans 4:2)

Here's the whole passage in question. What does it say about "the works of the law"?

Romans 4:1-8 NIV
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, I'm sure that Gordon D. Fee (Assemblies of God), Craig L. Blomberg, and D.A. Carson would recommend looking at the near context as the first of several layers of context.

I avoid Commentaries like the plague.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I avoid Commentaries like the plague.

I'm not sure why you would. Aren't at least some commentaries just written messages that also come from fellow Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit? Is there something about written messages we should avoid like the plague?

 

[Saint Steven]

Then it must be evidence of something. I wonder what. ???
Oh, got it.
Lettuce consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds... (Hebrews 10:24)

I'll need some help with "mayonnaise". (and pickles)

MMXX said: ↑
Works is mayonnaise, lettuce, onion, tomato, ketchup, pickles and mustard.

(most people don't get my jokes)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Here's the whole passage in question. What does it say about "the works of the law"?

Romans 4:1-8 NIV
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Well, from my understanding, this doesn't really qualify as near context or even immediate context.

I'm not saying this to down you but rather to clarify our mutual focus upon all of what Paul is saying.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not sure why you would. Aren't at least some commentaries just written messages that also come from fellow Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit? Is there something about written messages we should avoid like the plague?

I prefer to skip the middle man. Aren't I filled with the Holy Spirit? Or does that only come with a semetery degree from a demon-nation and state accreditation?

I find them MOSTLY unhelpful. More likely to give me a headache than spiritual insight.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Saint steven: You reminded me of this verse:

2 Peter 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, from my understanding, this doesn't really qualify as near context or even immediate context.

I'm not saying this to down you but rather to clarify our mutual focus upon all of what Paul is saying.

Well, lead the way then. I can't ride a dead horse. - lol
Let's get this show on the road.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint steven: You remind me of this verse:

Always glad to help. Thanks.

 

[mlepfitjw]

It looks like a person has to put forth effort... to be useful in the knowledge of Christ Jesus. In times when lead, or to help someone, with their faith. Of course we also help the half beaten dead man that is lying in the street.

 

[Saint Steven]

Of course we also help the half beaten dead man that is lying in the street.

That would make an awesome parable/story.

 

[Saint Steven]

It looks like a person has to put forth effort...

That sounds like work, or even works.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Here you go Steven:

25 One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: “Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 Jesus replied, “What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?”

27 The man answered, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “Right!” Jesus told him. “Do this and you will live!”

29 The man wanted to justify his actions, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 Jesus replied with a story: “A Jewish man was traveling from Jerusalem down to Jericho, and he was attacked by bandits. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him up, and left him half dead beside the road.

31 “By chance a priest came along. But when he saw the man lying there, he crossed to the other side of the road and passed him by. 32 A Temple assistant walked over and looked at him lying there, but he also passed by on the other side.

33 “Then a despised Samaritan came along, and when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him. 34 Going over to him, the Samaritan soothed his wounds with olive oil and wine and bandaged them. Then he put the man on his own donkey and took him to an inn, where he took care of him. 35 The next day he handed the innkeeper two silver coins, telling him, ‘Take care of this man. If his bill runs higher than this, I’ll pay you the next time I’m here.’

36 “Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the man who was attacked by bandits?” Jesus asked.

37 The man replied, “The one who showed him mercy.”

Then Jesus said, “Yes, now go and do the same.”

What are your thoughts on these scriptures?


Was there judgment placed upon the situation looking at the priest, temple assistant, and the despised Samaritan for each one of their actions, two passing by, and one stopping?


What can we learn from what Jesus Christ is teaching, to them man asking the question about how to obtain eternal life?

What did Jesus Christ tell the man when he asked the question; wanting to be justified by his actions: that he was wrong for asking such a question?

Did Jesus rebuke him, and say no that is not how you gain eternal life?

Is not the most important part of this message the expression of Love of God, and Love of Others through faith?

 

[Saint Steven]

It looks like a person has to put forth effort... to be useful in the knowledge of Christ Jesus. In times when lead, or to help someone, with their faith. Of course we also help the half beaten dead man that is lying in the street.

Here's a question for you to ponder.

If a person says to themselves, "Hmm... what can I do for God today?" Is that person following God's will for their lives?

 

[Saint Steven]

Here you go Steven:

Thanks. I knew it sounded familiar. - lol

BTW: You can call me Steve (if you like)
When my my Mom called me "Steven!", I knew I was in trouble.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, lead the way then. I can't ride a dead horse. - lol
Let's get this show on the road.

Well, in this case, the first thing for me to do in interpreting the Bible would be to admit upfront to everyone else that .... (oh, surprise!)..... I'm no expert on the Bible. But this fact is 'why' I resort to reading and researching through a lot of other Christian thinkers (in the hope that some of them are filled with the Holy Spirit and thereby have the spiritual knowledge that Paul often talks about). So, with my own need for information established, I go to the next thing.

From what I glean from these various 'teachers,' the first thing for us to look at would be for us to understand the various levels of context. And to do that, we need to get rid of our reliance upon the chapter and verse numbering system in our bibles. Can we do that together here?

 

[Saint Steven]

From what I glean from these various 'teachers,' the first thing for us to look at would be for us to understand the various levels of context. And to do that, we need to get rid of our reliance upon the chapter and verse numbering system in our bibles. Can we do that together here?

We don't need to be "boxed in" by chapter and verse divisions, but I most certainly want us to use scripture references so we know what the heck we are looking at. Fair enough?

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, in this case, the first thing for me to do in interpreting the Bible would be to admit upfront to everyone else that .... (oh, surprise!)..... I'm no expert on the Bible. But this fact is 'why' I resort to reading and researching through a lot of other Christian thinkers (in the hope that some of them are filled with the Holy Spirit and thereby have the spiritual knowledge that Paul often talks about). So, with my own need for information established, I go to the next thing.

Have you read the whole Bible, cover to cover?
No worries, most Christians haven't. But I have. As a young adult I read it cover to cover and created my own reference Bible in the process. That is how I learned the Bible and why I have retained so much of it. With the help of the Holy Spirit. (not men)

John 14:26 NIV
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Saint Steve, and 2Philo

You are still going to get the same message with or without chapter and verses.

thankful they are separated though so you can look at the verses word by word and find deeper meaning if you are able to.

Have only been in the new testament the most in my life, the old testament do not read at all hardly ever.

I believe that the new testament has been able to teach me a lot, also having a good teacher to help; helps.