Defending Atheism as rational (A theistic of many theistic perspectives)

awitch

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I personally have no authority or power over anything or anyone. I am but a condemned man saved by the Grace of God. I was once a man of great violence and hatred that wanted only to kill as many as I could and fine one that could kill me to put me out of my misery. You have no concept of who or what I was and how far I have come. Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ set me free and G_d's Holy Spirit has set me upon a path for G_d's purpose I once had no understanding of. Each has to find their own way in their own time according to what is important to them. Neither I nor anyone else can convince you of anything. It is only when you decide to search for what is Truth and that is G_d will you find. No one can do that for you. It was not until I got so sick and tired of my own B.S. and asked G_d to make Himself real to me did I find Him. When you mean it He will reach out to you as He did to me. Then you will KNOW!

I have been for the last 20 years and that's why I'm on the path that I am. But now you've changed your story again by saying he will find me. After 20 years, he hasn't yet. And if he doesn't then it was never my choice to begin with.

I'm sorry to hear about your troubled past, but I'll glad things are going better now.
 
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dlamberth

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I am turning 69 years old this Dec. of 2018 and I have witnessed the miracles of G_d throughout my life. G-d has saved my life not just spiritually through salvation by the sacrifice Jesus made on the Cross but many times physically through out my lifetime! I have posted example elsewhere on this site. I not just believe in Jesus, G_d, and the Holy Spirit but know them intimately as personal friends! I could no more do without them than I can do without air. I understand there are those that do not share my experience but I have to declare mine! You as an individual have freedom to choose just as I have and I choose and declare I belong to G_d, My Savior is Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ, filled with the Holy Spirit of G_d and waiting for the Second Coming of Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ.
What I find so wonderful is that God is just alive and vibrant in others of other spiritual traditions as you have found in yours.
 
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The Gryphon

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I have been for the last 20 years and that's why I'm on the path that I am. But now you've changed your story again by saying he will find me. After 20 years, he hasn't yet. And if he doesn't then it was never my choice to begin with.

I'm sorry to hear about your troubled past, but I'll glad things are going better now.

Michelangelo painted on the Sistine Chapel ceiling the painting below:
1427146_f927a441f5249e5b1888262b69d907c9.jpg


In the painting you will note Michelangelo showed G_d reaching out toward Adam while Adam (representing mankind) can easily touch G_d if He really wanted to. I don't know how much you know about the Biblical story of Adam and Eve however while men usually look down on women. In the Bible it tells us Eve was deceived by Satan in the form of a Serpent while Adam of his own free will took of the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden freely. My point to you was and is G_d desires a personal relationship with all His creation and is actively reaching out to all mankind but we do have to make some effort on our part to reciprocate. G_d will not force us. As bad as I was He reached out to me through Jesus and forgave me all my sins and all I had to do was accept His Grace.

People want to make things so much harder than they really are or need to be. G_d has done all the work so all we have to do is accept His sacrifice through Yeshua (Jesus) and yet the majority refuse.
 
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awitch

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Michelangelo painted on the Sistine Chapel ceiling the painting below: View attachment 246759

In the painting you will note Michelangelo showed G_d reaching out toward Adam while Adam (representing mankind) can easily touch G_d if He really wanted to. I don't know how much you know about the Biblical story of Adam and Eve however while men usually look down on women. In the Bible it tells us Eve was deceived by Satan in the form of a Serpent while Adam of his own free will took of the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden freely. My point to you was and is G_d desires a personal relationship with all His creation and is actively reaching out to all mankind but we do have to make some effort on our part to reciprocate. G_d will not force us. As bad as I was He reached out to me through Jesus and forgave me all my sins and all I had to do was accept His Grace.

People want to make things so much harder than they really are or need to be. G_d has done all the work so all we have to do is accept His sacrifice through Yeshua (Jesus) and yet the majority refuse.

Again, I've been searching for the devine for 20 years now and haven't met him. Can't say it was a lack of effort on my part. He's even welcome to stop by any time, but until then I'll just be happy with my own deities.
 
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Zoness

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In regard to the OP, knowing he isn't returning anytime soon I am going to make a few general notes:

-> Religion and skepticism do generally seem to be tied to purely material factors; there's an extremely high chance that you are the same religion your parents were. Your culture and geography are the greatest indicators of what faith you will grow up in. If you were not directly raised in a faith, you were acculturated principally in one, especially in the West, that is likely to be Christianity through the results of history rather than divine providence.

-> Most religious cosmologies rest on some human identity proceeding beyond life. Usually this is called the Soul. Unfortunately, I've never been able to get anyone to pin down what the soul even IS let alone how it relates to the body or the afterlife or why that matters. (I may talk about this more in the Dualism thread).

-> While polytheists contend with it quite a bit, there are atheistic strands of Paganism and I am also aware that there are atheistic strands of Buddhism as well. I've seen something similar in Shinto. Atheism does not necessarily negate the practice of religion. Although generally, Atheism is correlated with scientific understanding and skepticism of supernatural claims, many religions tend to fall away here.

-> Life is complicated and messy and you can spend all your days worrying about what lies beyond, if anything. While its good to ask the questions and great to ponder on the wide world of philosophy and religion, its easy to let the questions and existential dread consume you. You only get one life, enjoy it with friends and family; have a drink, play some video games or listen to your favorite album. Take a load off if the size of the universe and your place in it becomes too much. It helps me, at least.


Again, I've been searching for the devine for 20 years now and haven't met him. Can't say it was a lack of effort on my part. He's even welcome to stop by any time, but until then I'll just be happy with my own deities.

I'm with you here. I was told quite a bit that I would be filled with the holy spirit (in Pentecostal parlance) but as that never came it was clearly not for me, or it was not elect or whatever, there's a million theological reasons. The only divine that has came to me has been the universe itself and so far I am content with that. Though I've had a bit of a sea change in this area that would be interesting to discuss but not exactly thread appropriate.
 
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servantofiam

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Again, I've been searching for the devine for 20 years now and haven't met him. Can't say it was a lack of effort on my part. He's even welcome to stop by any time, but until then I'll just be happy with my own deities.




If your idealism is different than what you call the Divine is, then it could approach you, talk to you, be your friend, and you still would never recognize it over your assumption of what you believe the Divine should be.
 
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awitch

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If your idealism is different than what you call the Divine is, then it could approach you, talk to you, be your friend, and you still would never recognize it over your assumption of what you believe the Divine should be.

So let's recap.
The choice is completely mine to make, but by God's intent, I'll be punished for all eternity for choosing the wrong thing in a place created by God specifically for people who don't choose what God insists.

God should eventually reveal himself to me if I'm a sincere seeker for some arbitrary amount of time that's completely different for different people (many of whom still end up finding something different anyway).

I can't trust my sincere seeking unless they lead me to the particular path that God demands.
 
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servantofiam

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So let's recap.
The choice is completely mine to make, but by God's intent, I'll be punished for all eternity for choosing the wrong thing in a place created by God specifically for people who don't choose what God insists.

God should eventually reveal himself to me if I'm a sincere seeker for some arbitrary amount of time that's completely different for different people (many of whom still end up finding something different anyway).

I can't trust my sincere seeking unless they lead me to the particular path that God demands.




God's only intent was He died for us. This was a two-fold purpose. One, is salvation, two being for us to conquer death, God was the only one who could provide it.

Even in the story of Adam and Eve, God's intention was for humanity to live forever. All God did was put something accessible and created a simple rule. That rule was don't eat of this tree. But like all humans when told NO, what is the first thing we want to do? To eat of that tree.

Since we are rebellious, and we will always do as we want to do more often than none, God said OK I will fix this. He died for us. And all we have to do is just believe in Him. We still will be rebellious at times, we still will do bad things, we still will be selfish, we still will be human, but typically morally speaking, when we do wrong we do feel guilty if someone is hurt by our actions or we cause great pain.

In your own path you have the law of THREE. That is the same as reaping what you sow. You believe if you do bad it comes back on you 3 times worse. So, you still are following rules, just by another path. So to strike force at God, while you are basically following similar rules, is rather hypocritical of you.
 
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awitch

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Even in the story of Adam and Eve, God intention was for humanity to live forever. All God did was put something accessible and created a simple rule. That rule was don't eat of this tree. But like all humans when told NO, what is the first thing we want to do? To eat of that tree.

And yet God did it anyway. He knew it would happen and did it anyway. If he's omniscient and omnipotent and it happened that way because he wanted it to. Either through incompetence or intent, he set us up to fail.

In your own path you have the law of THREE. That is the same as reaping what you sow. You believe if you do bad it comes back on you 3 times worse. So, you still are following rules, just by another path.

I don't personally subscribe to the Rule of Three.

So to strike force at God, while you are basically following similar rules, is rather hypocritical of you.

If all we have to do is believe (as you stated above) then the rules are irrelevant.
 
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servantofiam

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But it's the belief that Christ is God is what you must believe. Because like your own path, you are following some kind of example to strive to be a better person. The same is when you accept Christ, you will desire to be more like Christ. This is basic logic but it happens in everything we do from sports, to cooking, to whatever floats your boat, you strive to be like your hero.

And the knowing God set us up to fail:

No, God set us up to know we are fragile in this life. And we are. Not everyone hit by a moving car lives, most generally die. So God wanted to emphasize that life is precious and life can be fatal at any given moment. He wanted us to realize we are human and that means we are limited. He set it up so when we realize these things, we can also be comforted that He is present and we can ask for His help when we see our limitations. He wanted us to be intelligent. And intelligent humans know their limitations. God also wanted to show where our limits end, His just begins, and we can ask Him for help. This is why He created us, to be our big brother. It's a relationship of our knowledge and His ability to gives us what we desire by understanding we cannot achieve on our own merits.
 
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servantofiam

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But it's the belief that Christ is God is what you must believe. Because like your own path, you are following some kind of example to strive to be a better person. The same is when you accept Christ, you will desire to be more like Christ. This is basic logic but it happens in everything we do from sports, to cooking, to whatever floats your boat, you strive to be like your hero.

And the knowing God set us up to fail:

No, God set us up to know we are fragile in this life. And we are. Not everyone hit by a moving car lives, most generally die. So God wanted to emphasize that life is precious and life can be fatal at any given moment. He wanted us to realize we are human and that means we are limited. He set it up so when we realize these things, we can also be comforted that He is present and we can ask for His help when we see our limitations. He wanted us to be intelligent. And intelligent humans know their limitations. God also wanted to show where our limits end, His just begins, and we can ask Him for help. This is why He created us, to be our big brother. It's a relationship of our knowledge and His ability to gives us what we desire by understanding we cannot achieve on our own merits.
 
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servantofiam

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But it's the belief that Christ is God is what you must believe. Because like your own path, you are following some kind of example to strive to be a better person. The same is when you accept Christ, you will desire to be more like Christ. This is basic logic but it happens in everything we do from sports, to cooking, to whatever floats your boat, you strive to be like your hero.

And the knowing God set us up to fail:

No, God set us up to know we are fragile in this life. And we are. Not everyone hit by a moving car lives, most generally die. So God wanted to emphasize that life is precious and life can be fatal at any given moment. He wanted us to realize we are human and that means we are limited. He set it up so when we realize these things, we can also be comforted that He is present and we can ask for His help when we see our limitations. He wanted us to be intelligent. And intelligent humans know their limitations. God also wanted to show where our limits end, His just begins, and we can ask Him for help. This is why He created us, to be our big brother. It's a relationship of our knowledge and His ability to gives us what we desire by understanding we cannot achieve on our own merits.
 
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awitch

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But it's the belief that Christ is God is what you must believe.

OK, so not a choice then.

Because like your own path, you are following some kind of example to strive to be a better person.

No, not really. My path isn't about following rules of right and wrong. I strive to be a better person because that's a good thing to do. My path is about appreciating the world we live in and protecting it from exploitation.

No, God set us up to know we are fragile in this life. And we are. Not everyone hit by a moving car lives, most generally die. So God wanted to emphasize that life is precious and life can be fatal at any given moment. He wanted us to realize we are human and that means we are limited.

I can think of at least a million ways he could do so that do not involve an eternity in torment.

He wanted us to be intelligent.

By condeming all humankind for two people partaking in the fruit from the tree of knowledge?
 
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awitch

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BTW, my ex wife was once a wiccan high priestess, so I am well versed in the paths of paganism.

Wicca is one very particular flavor of Paganism.
(I'm not a Wiccan incidentally)
 
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dlamberth

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I can’t speak for awitch but I am wary of people telling me what I must believe.
I've found that when a person "believes", they think they have arrived. But when seen as a journey, one never arrives which allows them to go further down the spiritual path towards the Divine than they otherwise would be opened to.
 
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