Defending Atheism as rational (A theistic of many theistic perspectives)

[servantofiam]

I can’t speak for awitch but I am wary of people telling me what I must believe.

Interesting, considering you list yourself as a vet, which anyone would assume military vet. I never once recall making my own decisions while enlisted. In fact, my c/o told me what to believe every day of my tenure. It's good no one tells you what to do, since it's obvious you spent at least 6 years being told how to wipe your own rectum

 

[dlamberth]

Interesting, considering you list yourself as a vet, which anyone would assume military vet. I never once recall making my own decisions while enlisted. In fact, my c/o told me what to believe every day of my tenure. It's good no one tells you what to do, since it's obvious you spent at least 6 years being told how to wipe your own rectum

I'm pretty sure this is a Straw Man argument.

 

[servantofiam]

OK, so not a choice then.

There is always a choice in every matter. And the point I made about must believing that Christ is God, is all because how His story unfolds that makes it not logical to view Him as the actual God. But it is a measure of faith in choosing to believe He is God.

No, not really. My path isn't about following rules of right and wrong. I strive to be a better person because that's a good thing to do. My path is about appreciating the world we live in and protecting it from exploitation.

I assumed by your name you were a witch. And generally, most witches adhere to the wiccan path. My bad for assuming then and I apologize for doing as such!!

I can think of at least a million ways he could do so that do not involve an eternity in torment.

To be perfectly honest, the ancient Hebrews who became known as the Jews generally never believed in a hell for sinners. Most of their terms used to describe hell was based upon the literal grave a body is buried in. The mentioning of a hell for the fallen angels had a reference to the side of the pits in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Peter expounds on it calling it the abyss. But this hell was solely for the fallen angels.

Hell was an idea created by the Catholic church in the 3rd/4th centuries as a way to mind control the villages. Unfortunately, many churches adopted several wrong idealisms from the Catholics like the "trinity." And during the Nicene Council that were led by Roman Bishops, now a definite connection to the Catholic regime, they made decisions to remove Books that once was part of the Hebrew faith, they added a few words here and there to the actual scripture, they changed the literal words of Jesus for their Baptismal Formula (that is easily discredited because the first church never once baptized like we read they were commanded to), and stories that included hell as a place of torment like the Lazarus/Rich man story that appears being told by Christ is fake.

Unfortunately, most who call themselves Christian, don't have a clue about the fact they are following the traditions of men, not the directions of God!!

But what is specifically mentioned, is the Lake of Fire. This is not the actual burning hell, this is a place much like the process of being cremated. It's designed to consume, not to torment for eternity.

By condeming all humankind for two people partaking in the fruit from the tree of knowledge?

I will admit, I am not a fan of this condition either. I choose to follow God on the basis He chose to die for me. I am a big fan of people willing to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others. To me, this completely outranks the fact I was a person (that I'll admit) was not always nice, fair to others, and basically just plain mean because I was bigger, stronger, and enjoyed things not good for me or others. But what could not make me change, God has changed. And I put God to the test. I forced His hand to make Himself real. And it played out in a way that all I can say is...I know that I know that I know He is legit and absolutely real!!

 

[servantofiam]

I'm pretty sure this is a Straw Man argument.

If that poster's veteran status is due to being military, then it s a fact, whether it seems as you suggest or not.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Interesting, considering you list yourself as a vet, which anyone would assume military vet. I never once recall making my own decisions while enlisted. In fact, my c/o told me what to believe every day of my tenure. It's good no one tells you what to do, since it's obvious you spent at least 6 years being told how to wipe your own rectum

I am an active duty veteran and currently a First Sergeant in the Michigan National Guard but I have never been instructed on how to wipe by the military in 30 years and if you are reaching that far to wipe the rectum, you are going too far. I have been given orders and have even issued a few myself, but I have never told anyone what they need to believe in regards to Religion. Ever since I made E-5 I was allowed to make my own decisions and was responsible for the outcome. In fact, my 28 year old Captain tells me that the Company needs to take a hill; I come up with the plan to do that with my platoon and squad leaders and we do it and he takes the glory. But even though I may be sending people to their deaths, I have never told them what god to follow. I have Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Atheists, super observant and non-observant and every race resented. I cannot tell my troops that Christianity is their only path any more than I can tell them that they all need to be white.


Your CO was wrong if he was compelling you to follow a religion.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

If that poster's veteran status is due to being military, then it s a fact, whether it seems as you suggest or not.

Just because you believe something, that does not make it a fact.

 

[awitch]

I assumed by your name you were a witch. And generally, most witches adhere to the wiccan path. My bad for assuming then and I apologize for doing as such!!

No problem. I am a witch, just not a Wiccan. Nothing against them, though.

Unfortunately, most who call themselves Christian, don't have a clue about the fact they are following the traditions of men, not the directions of God!!

This is something I hear from Christians across the spectrum which is another reason I find it problematic. There is quite a large number of denominations with varying beliefs. So if no one can definitively determine the correct interpretation of scripture then I can't rely on it. And it makes even less sense to trust any person when humans are supposed to be so rebellious and want to do things that god says not to, as you say.

But the complications continue. Let's say you have a Christians who believes he is following the directions of god, but is actually following the traditions of men. Is that not sufficient for salvation? How many details are you allowed to get wrong?

I will admit, I am not a fan of this condition either. I choose to follow God on the basis He chose to die for me. I am a big fan of people willing to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others. To me, this completely outranks the fact I was a person (that I'll admit) was not always nice, fair to others, and basically just plain mean because I was bigger, stronger, and enjoyed things not good for me or others. But what could not make me change, God has changed. And I put God to the test. I forced His hand to make Himself real. And it played out in a way that all I can say is...I know that I know that I know He is legit and absolutely real!!

There are no shortage of gods and goddesses that are told to have sacrificed everything. How many other gods did you try to "force their hands"?

It sounds like your sufficiently convincing evidence is your personal experience. I can't complain about that, but I would suggest that several billion other people, myself included, have different personal experiences that are equally convincing for us.

 

[dlamberth]

If that poster's veteran status is due to being military, then it s a fact, whether it seems as you suggest or not.

The poster was originally responding to religious beliefs, not military orders. It became a Straw Man argument when it suddenly became about the Military.

I'm a Vietnam Vet. It's been a lot of years, but from that long ago experience I can still say for certain that there's a lot of difference between Orders coming down from Military Superiors compared to some unknown person telling someone else what they have to believe.

 

[servantofiam]

I am an active duty veteran and currently a First Sergeant in the Michigan National Guard but I have never been instructed on how to wipe by the military in 30 years and if you are reaching that far to wipe the rectum, you are going too far. I have been given orders and have even issued a few myself, but I have never told anyone what they need to believe in regards to Religion. Ever since I made E-5 I was allowed to make my own decisions and was responsible for the outcome. In fact, my 28 year old Captain tells me that the Company needs to take a hill; I come up with the plan to do that with my platoon and squad leaders and we do it and he takes the glory. But even though I may be sending people to their deaths, I have never told them what god to follow. I have Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Atheists, super observant and non-observant and every race resented. I cannot tell my troops that Christianity is their only path any more than I can tell them that they all need to be white.


Your CO was wrong if he was compelling you to follow a religion.

No one instructed us to follow anything but protocol. I was just suggesting that in order to become your E-rank one must endure many things that subject them to uncomfortable idealisms, opinions, and self preservation. So basically from boot camp until you rank, you are treated as property hahahaha

 

[servantofiam]

No problem. I am a witch, just not a Wiccan. Nothing against them, though.

Indeed, I have some awesome friends who are involved in that path.

This is something I hear from Christians across the spectrum which is another reason I find it problematic. There is quite a large number of denominations with varying beliefs. So if no one can definitively determine the correct interpretation of scripture then I can't rely on it. And it makes even less sense to trust any person when humans are supposed to be so rebellious and want to do things that god says not to, as you say.

I can see many claim that, but only a few can actually prove it. Example, I will upload something that shows the original Christians were baptizing a certain way until the 4th century (which is when the Nicene Council of CRAP changed things). But the real kicker is, only very few people know this. The rest are entwined within their traditions they cannot accept an actual fact because it goes directly against their way of thinking. Remember I mentioned the Nicene Council were Bishops from Rome that ends up later being the Catholic Church. So, any information provided by the Catholic Church concerning changes is concrete fact since the Council became later leaders of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church).


Read last paragraph: And by them admitting the Baptism changed from in Jesus Name to the unholy trinity means those who are trinity are literally following traditions of men and not what God commanded (and there are over a BILLION trinity followers out there following a flat out lie)!!

And concerning Denominations:
The Book of Acts was the original church after Christ ascended. So, if any church is actually following what God taught, it will have many similarities of what we read in the Book of Acts. It's how my Grandfather and Father pastored their churches!!

But the complications continue. Let's say you have a Christians who believes he is following the directions of god, but is actually following the traditions of men. Is that not sufficient for salvation? How many details are you allowed to get wrong?

Since I just showed you the Baptismal Formula being changed to the unholy trinity...does that mean I believe anyone baptized that way is not going to heaven?

Absolutely Not, I believe God being God knows these people have been tricked. Therefore, I believe God will have Mercy upon them because they thought they were following the Truth. I do not view God as a Hitler at all. If He was, there would be no way He would have died for us!!

There are no shortage of gods and goddesses that are told to have sacrificed everything. How many other gods did you try to "force their hands"?

Yes, but once again going back to the Nicene Council under the leadership of Constantine (who worshipped the Greek god Apollo and his mother was a high priestess)(they only converted because the Christian were going to kill them like they did for many year)(so they were not actual believers, just did not want to die sort of thing) made several changes to scripture that aligned Jesus to many pagan deities. but none of it factual. The things most people think they know of Yeshua (Jesus), aren't even factual, they were things added by Constantine to make Jesus appear to be like any other god/goddess.

And once again, people are believing things about Jesus based upon the traditions of men.

It sounds like your sufficiently convincing evidence is your personal experience. I can't complain about that, but I would suggest that several billion other people, myself included, have different personal experiences that are equally convincing for us.

Having a Grandfather and Father as preachers, the very moment I was born until I could make my own choices, I was stuck in church. But as soon as I was able to run, I went wild and insane. Made friends literally with the devil who don't just let you forget about them, found myself in all sorts of legal issues, I was playing Russian Roulette at top speed in a vehicle that literally had no breaks and the gas pedal stuck to the floorboard. Me being here at this moment typing to you, is none other than a literal miracle of God. Anything I could mentally grasp I did from diving full blast into martial arts entwined with Buddhism, got into yoga for a professor lady friend of mine and was smack dab involved in Hinduism just for a piece of tail, married my ex when she was high priestess of a wiccan covenant and went full blast pagan in the Celtic deities over another piece of tail, was patched by her father who was a leader of the hell's Henchman which is an offshoot of the hell's Angels so my colors were RED, and I basically stood on top of a mountain to face God and challenge Him because I was so full of rage.

And today, I am talking to you about how AWESOME my God is hahahaha

Just a complete miracle.

But I do get exactly what you are saying

 

[awitch]

And concerning Denominations:
The Book of Acts was the original church after Christ ascended. So, if any church is actually following what God taught, it will have many similarities of what we read in the Book of Acts. It's how my Grandfather and Father pastored their churches!!

How fortuitous that you happen to have been born into the right one.

 

[servantofiam]

How fortuitous that you happen to have been born into the right one.

No, how fortuitous to have others actually studying and dissecting scripture to find the absolute truth rather than assuming.

 

[awitch]

No, how fortuitous to have others actually studying and dissecting scripture to find the absolute truth rather than assuming.

People had nearly 2000 years to study it and it seems like there's less consensus now.

 

[servantofiam]

People had nearly 2000 years to study it and it seems like there's less consensus now.

People also never really stopped and questioned what they were reading to ask if this could have been tampered with.

Like the virgin birth of Yeshua (Jesus). The original Hebrew word actually meant young maiden or just recently married. But Constantine's god, Apollo, is said to have been born on December 25th from a virgin birth. I find that interesting that suddenly under Constantine's supervision, we go from young maiden to virgin born on December 25th just like Apollo.

But you cannot learn if you never ask the correct questions!!

 

[awitch]

People also never really stopped and questioned what they were reading to ask if this could have been tampered with.

So which version of scripture do you subscribe to? And how literal do you interpret it?
(I'll just check the date it was first published)

But you cannot learn if you never ask the correct questions!!

Doesn't that strike you as odd?
If there was an all powerful god who truly wanted to save people from the eternal abyss (that he created in the first place), shouldn't scripture be unambiguous? In the IT world, we talk about authentication and data integrity. Why doesn't scripture address these issues? If I don't trust storing my credit card information on the Internet, why should I trust my eternal soul to a book?

 

[servantofiam]

So which version of scripture do you subscribe to? And how literal do you interpret it?
(I'll just check the date it was first published)

I use the actual portion of scripture that we read Yeshua (Jesus) read from, which is what you would call the Torah. And for my Christian viewpoint Bible, I use 3 to get a full spectrum view. The KJV is the obvious choice since it's the one most believers use. For my Greek view of the scriptures, I use the CLV. And for my Aramaic/Hebrew pertaining to the New testament since the Torah is about the Old Testament, I use CJB.

And I get the best view by looking at the same scripture from all of them. That allows me to find where each translation connects properly.

Doesn't that strike you as odd?
If there was an all powerful god who truly wanted to save people from the eternal abyss (that he created in the first place), shouldn't scripture be unambiguous? In the IT world, we talk about authentication and data integrity. Why doesn't scripture address these issues? If I don't trust storing my credit card information on the Internet, why should I trust my eternal soul to a book?

No, it does not strike me odd at all.

First of all, there is a flow to the scriptures when you read them properly. It's when a sudden bump appears from nowhere that you stop and find out why.

Secondly, there is a specific command that anyone who adds or removes from the scriptures will be dealt with. And like anything else mixed with greed to get people to believe a different way for self profit, the moment you read this command/warning, you just know someone will/or had already tried it.

Thirdly, there are old manuscripts claiming to be about the first church and other things pertaining to scripture, that have been proven to have been tampered with. And this goes without saying, but a red flag is just that. And common sense suggests that possibly the Bible could have also been tampered with as well.

And the scripture provides the view from both sides of the spectrum. And with the use of logic and reasoning, the jest is rather easy to figure out. Especially if you hit the bump from out of nowhere.